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23meg
November 3rd, 2009, 04:29 AM
The Kubuntu people are up to something:

Announcing Project Timelord (http://www.kubuntu.org/news/timelord)


Through intense self-reflection, it has come to the attention of several Kubuntu developers that Kubuntu is not currently reaching its full potential. Whether due to major architectural changes in the software stack, the usage of certain Ubuntu technologies or limited developer time, we have realized that deep changes must occur. In order to fix this situation will do all in our power to make sure Kubuntu stands the test of time.

Project Timelord aims to establish a solid base for Kubuntu to build upon that will last a lifetime. To accomplish this, we have compiled a list of improvements and changes which we feel need to be made to Kubuntu, as well as a roadmap for implementing them. The roadmap outlines both immediate and ongoing technical remedies to improve developer efficiency and the overall quality of Kubuntu, as well as plans to promote the growth of both the developer and user support communities in the long term.

Check out the page for more details, and links to the specification documents.

Squonk07
November 3rd, 2009, 04:39 AM
Nice to see they're taking the initiative. I'd like to see what went into this from which they compiled a "condensed form." I often hear grumbling in the (K)ubuntu community about Kubuntu being allegedly inferior to other KDE distros, but I haven't really seen anybody definitively nail down what's wrong or take any real initiative to raise awareness or petition the Kubuntu devs to do something about it. Obviously they have been, in bits and pieces, hence this announcement. I'm excited to see what happens next.

EDIT: Missed that last part about the specifications. I'll go check it out.

hikaricore
November 3rd, 2009, 07:36 AM
This is great.
Espeically since I remember a couple weeks ago someone saying that Kubuntu was not as important as Ubuntu.
Forget who it was but it seemed like a copout if I ever read one.

ranch hand
November 3rd, 2009, 08:44 AM
I think that the main question here is if the "time lord" has a tardus.

meborc
November 3rd, 2009, 01:33 PM
this is something i have been waiting for a long time... to people who love both ubuntu and kde to bring the best out of kubuntu

it has long been the dodgiest of the *buntu family

all the best to the devs!!!

ronacc
November 3rd, 2009, 03:08 PM
this is a welcome developement , I like KDE and have tried Kubuntu several times and always found it a bit lacking .

buzzmandt
November 3rd, 2009, 05:16 PM
excellent, i like kubuntu and if they can make it better that's just... well, excellent.

Regenweald
November 3rd, 2009, 05:53 PM
I always appreciate the kde attitude which seems to be push forward and push hard. Definitely something to look forward to.

edin9
November 3rd, 2009, 07:39 PM
The Kubuntu people are up to something:

Announcing Project Timelord (http://www.kubuntu.org/news/timelord)



Check out the page for more details, and links to the specification documents.

At last.

luvr
November 3rd, 2009, 11:05 PM
At last.
Amen!

caryb
November 4th, 2009, 12:29 AM
Have a grin from ear to ear :lolflag:


Cary

slakkie
November 4th, 2009, 12:31 AM
You guys missed a great openweek sessions with Riddell.

23meg
November 4th, 2009, 12:34 AM
You guys missed a great openweek sessions with Riddell.

The log will be here soon:

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekKarmic/KDE_LTS

papangul
November 4th, 2009, 01:27 PM
From the Project Timelord anouncement:

At the moment we really can't provide total support for 4 releases all at once. For example the non-security SRU rate for Intrepid is abysmal, with Jaunty only gaining fixes for the most critical of issues it was released with. Once we come up with something concrete, we should write it down.
Interesting! .. will wait to know how they solve this problem!

How is Ubuntu doing in this respect. It has more resources than Kubuntu, but supporting 4 releases simultaneously might prove to be difficult task , no matter how resourceful someone is!

novafluxx
November 5th, 2009, 02:52 AM
This is a godsend! Something like this is really needed! I installed Kubuntu 9.10 last weekend, and on first boot, something crashed, and the clock was partially covered by the other widgets on the panel, and it totally felt like an unfinished product...I was VERY disappointed, and after about 15 minutes I had finished downloading Ubuntu 9.10 and rebooted to install it, thats what I'm running now.


I love the beauty of KDE, and Qt seems like a nice toolkit. I'm hoping this project leads to some GREAT things with Kubuntu!

edin9
November 5th, 2009, 03:23 AM
Maybe they will drop the 6 month cycle for Kubuntu?

ranch hand
November 5th, 2009, 03:36 AM
Or, radical idea, become more interested in function and a little less fixated on eye-candy and gimicks.

edin9
November 5th, 2009, 03:38 AM
Or, radical idea, become more interested in function and a little less fixated on eye-candy and gimicks.

Gimmicks?

slakkie
November 5th, 2009, 04:15 PM
Or, radical idea, become more interested in function and a little less fixated on eye-candy and gimicks.

Que?

Merk42
November 5th, 2009, 05:21 PM
Que?

It's ranch hand. It'll make more sense if you look at his avatar and end his posts with "Now Get Off My Lawn!"

I'm guessing he's saying 'gimmicks' like a lot of people use the world 'bloat' nowadays. As in "it's something I don't use that is included, therefore it's a gimmick/bloat"

Though I suppose a specific example or two would be nice ranch hand

VMC
November 5th, 2009, 06:32 PM
This is great.
Espeically since I remember a couple weeks ago someone saying that Kubuntu was not as important as Ubuntu.
Forget who it was but it seemed like a copout if I ever read one.

I remember that topic came up. Good to see this project come up for KDE enthusiasts.

edin9
November 5th, 2009, 07:38 PM
It's ranch hand. It'll make more sense if you look at his avatar and end his posts with "Now Get Off My Lawn!"

I'm guessing he's saying 'gimmicks' like a lot of people use the world 'bloat' nowadays. As in "it's something I don't use that is included, therefore it's a gimmick/bloat"

Though I suppose a specific example or two would be nice ranch hand

lol, a little personal.

nystire
November 6th, 2009, 09:26 AM
At the risk of being flamed, "Get off my lawn!" :)

Seriously though, I run both Ubuntu and Kubuntu at home. I have noticed that there are serious speed differences between them on the same laptop (Toshiba Satellite P105-S9337). Ubuntu runs fluidly - with no hitches at all - from the start, whereas Kubuntu has problems from the moment I try to open the menu. It stutters, applications (Firefox, Kopete) take ages to start as opposed to Firefox and Empathy under Ubuntu. Even installing the Empathy under Kubuntu didn't help, as after the install it too took ages to start.

There are far less resources available to the Kubuntu project and it shows.

SunnyRabbiera
November 6th, 2009, 09:32 AM
does it come from Gallifrey?

ranch hand
November 6th, 2009, 09:42 AM
does it come from Gallifrey?
Yes, I am sure of it.

I think the real question should be - "Which Doctor?"

TheStatsMan
November 6th, 2009, 12:50 PM
Or, radical idea, become more interested in function and a little less fixated on eye-candy and gimicks.

Kubuntu is fully customisable. I would agree Kubuntu is not as functional to a newbie as ubuntu, but if you can be bothered you can set it up to do everything you want it to. I run both kubuntu and ubuntu and in my opinion if you customise to suit yourself kubuntu is the more functional the ubuntu. Mind you the default settings in kubuntu are not particularly nice so I do see where you are coming from. First impressions do count. The main drawback I find with kubuntu is a bit more buggy than gnome, but there was a large improvement with Jaunty in this respect. This certainly seems like a move in the right direction.

Zorael
November 6th, 2009, 01:18 PM
I run Kubuntu, and I have only really run into one bug with knetworkmanager sometimes asking for my wireless password even though it's saved in my wallet. The rest were bugs in or caused by shared components (X/intel driver, MSI Wind brightness bug, etc). I admit I have some pet peeves here and there, like there not being an auto-reconnect plugin in Kopete, no touchpad configuration tool, etc. But no other bugs, no instability.

Apps starting slower in KDE (like Firefox or whatever the example was) is indicative of lack of available resources, such as of RAM or caused by some process hogging CPU time. Additionally, in the case of Firefox, perhaps it needed to load shared GTK libraries that no other apps had already loaded, whereas GNOME would've done so early on at boot. The same would go for Qt apps under GNOME.

Being as broad as to say that "stuff is slower in KDE" makes little sense with apps started in the same X.Org with the same drivers on the same hardware, unless there is competition for resources. The environment is just another set of apps and daemons.

I think that what Kubuntu needs in terms of "distro packaging" is a good browser, as Konqueror isn't it. rekonq is a bit early in development and needs, really needs, Flashblock functionality to be a valid contender. I don't know what happened to its early ideas of multiprocess browsing, which sadly might just be too late now design-wise. Arora aims to be portable and environment-independent, which makes it integrate poorly by design. Chromium is beta (although works quite well), but integration is nonexistent and appearance is "unique" by design. Its speed and screen budget is unequalled though, for which my netbook is ever thankful. It, too, needs (really needs) Flashblock functionality, though there are extensions that sort of sometimes properly gets the job done. At least there's a built-in task manager (shift-esc) through which you can close the Flash process, in case it goes rampant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rampancy).

So it needs a more mature rekonq, a Karora or a Kromium (gods yes please).

continuation: But yes, Kubuntu is in a position where considerably less attention and resources are directed its way compared to its trueblood Ubuntu half-brother. Some features that are very core to Ubuntu can't easily be applied to KDE (Apport vs Dr. Konqi). Some features that are very core to Ubuntu won't be applied to KDE for other reasons (PulseAudio). Some design decisions are made without taking non-GNOME installations into consideration (O asoundconf, Where Art Thou).

ronacc
November 6th, 2009, 02:24 PM
The function verses eyecandy has been going on for a long time and not just about Kubuntu , it pops up in this forum every cycle . simply put some of us believe that functionality is more important than glitz and some of us take the view that "you gotta get them in the door before you can sell em ". I have little doubt that KDE is more resource intensive than Gnome but I at this time can't put exact numbers on it . I can say that on the same box with a decent processor and adequate ram it just feels "heavier".

Yes_It's_Me
November 6th, 2009, 02:58 PM
The computational resource difference between Gnome and KDE is debatable. On my laptop I have Ubuntu and Kubuntu installed (Lucid), both with similar app suites and stuff (Kubuntu probably has more stuff now, I am starting to use it more than Ubuntu on my laptop).

RAM wise, I would say there is no real difference. I have had issues with gnome-do in gnome suddenly going insane and using up all known RAM, and all Swap space and just genuinely crashing the system unless I get to it. This is not a problem in KDE, the quick-run thingy that comes with KDE is very nice, and doesn't have any issues in this regard whatsoever.

Right now, Kubuntu is using a tad over 500MB (If I close chome it goes back down under 500MB), and I think that is fairly reasonable considering it's a full, modern distribution with desktop effects and all that turned on. Last I checked, Ubuntu on my laptop used a similar (perhaps more) RAM (with gnome-do off of course). I don't think there is an issue with KDE memory use, my system seems to be consistently around the same level and I have no reason to believe they have forgotten that many delete[] statements. ;)

As for CPU. I have had similar issues with gnome-do making my CPU go to 100%. Overall though, I would say Kubuntu with KWin on does use more CPU on average than gnome with Compiz turned on. It's not at all serious, and both system are very snappy and responsive. (I actually find KDE maybe a bit snappier perhaps, it may just be threaded differently/better. Gnome is really just one big thread). There is no use complaining about CPU usage when the little bit extra is put to good use, and the applications are threaded properly.

Both systems are find, but the more attention Kubuntu can receive the better. I am really starting to like KDE4.3, it's becoming more stable than 3.5 was for me. The biggest issue I'm having right now is knetworkmanager asking for my password every login, and knetworkmanager crashing with a seg fault at every shutdown.

Zorael
November 6th, 2009, 03:15 PM
While I'm ignorant in the intricacies of how what free reports as used buffers translates to real use, this is the current reported usage on my netbook after having run five days.

zorael@lethe:~$ free -m
total used free shared buffers cached
Mem: 2003 1216 786 0 8 901
-/+ buffers/cache: 306 1696
Swap: 2102 68 2033

zorael@lethe:~$ uptime
15:08:07 up 5 days, 22:23, 2 users, load average: 0.03, 0.04, 0.02
Full desktop setup, currently running Kopete and Yakuake (and konsolepart by extension). A few plasma widgets so that part isn't completely frugal either (folderview, analogue clock, Show Desktop button. panel with menu, task manager, system tray, power management and clock widgets). Not including "standard" things like krunner, kmix, knetworkmanager and other environment daemons.

Yes_It's_Me
November 6th, 2009, 03:25 PM
wow, that's quite impressive. Is that with KWin effects on?

I really don't think there is a problem there. I can start up kubuntu and it will gobble up about 460MB (full desktop and everything), i can work for a day, bring up lots of apps and stuff, at the end of the day I close them down and the RAM usage goes back down to exactly where it was at the start of the day. That tells me that the KDE folks haven't been that bad at managing memory.

I wish it used 300 at startup though :/

Zorael
November 6th, 2009, 03:26 PM
Yes, compositioning on, though I disabled some of the effects that were enabled by default.

ranch hand
November 6th, 2009, 03:37 PM
I do not even like Kubuntu and I will not say it uses more power.

I have an external enclosure with a 320Gb HDD that has 4 to 6 OS' on it at anytime. I lone it to people to try out Linux on so I generally have Ubuntu, Xubuntu, Kubuntu and Mandriva (with Lxde) on there.

Kubuntu runs, on this box, pretty much the same as Ubuntu.

It fells clunky, in comparison to Ubuntu or Xubuntu, mainly because of crappy package managemnet.

Mandriva with its RPM based package management is about on par with Kubuntu in that department. I believe that KDE runs on it better too, but I am not sure why, it just "seems" more responsive.

VMC
November 6th, 2009, 03:47 PM
I tried for the first time kde 4.3 using Fedora. It felt heavy-laden. Never mind the ram usage. Some get to caught up on how much ram is used. I have 2gigs worth. What do I care about how much is used in reason.

The real question should be how do both systems preform in day to day use. I found kde to be sluggish, and too much Windows like.

Maybe in time it will all flow down hill, but right now I gave up on it. Besides not knowing the DM that well I found myself in a world of hurt. That "square box thingy" at the top left corner, I managed to delete and found myself with no way to retrieve it back.

I'm told suse has the fastest and best laid out kde 4.3 system, but then your siding with the enemy.

slakkie
November 6th, 2009, 04:01 PM
So you hate gnome to coz it looks like windows? I really don't get people who say KDE looks like Windows. And even if it did, looking like Windows doesn't mean KDE is Windows. It can run on Windows though..

Yes_It's_Me
November 7th, 2009, 02:05 AM
Wow, i just booted up kubuntu and it was using 280MB. Now that is impressive. Now sitting at about 350 with Chrome up and apt-get doing it's thing. I did remove openoffice and put in the beta of koffice though so maybe that has something to do with it (i think openoffice has some sort of startup app associated with it).

TheStatsMan
November 7th, 2009, 02:37 AM
I guess kubuntu is closer to windows in the way menu's work than gnome, but that doesn't make it anything like windows. I think both ubuntu and kubuntu have there pro's and cons. Ubuntu's menu system is more user friendly, buy kubuntu alt-F2 is an incremental search, so no need for menus. On my laptop I get about half an hour extra out of the battery time despite the fact I have installed all this extra power saving in ubuntu and haven't done anything to kubuntu. I think ubuntu may be slightly more snappy than kubuntu, but honestly they are both so fast compared to vista it is a joke. Karmic is very quick either way. I think KDE applications are better as a whole. The main plus for kubuntu is destop management. You can configure it to do anything you want, which is a bit advantage in terms of usability. Possibly a disadvantage for newbies though as it is very clunky to get around until configured. I think while most ubuntu users possibly couldn't care less that kubuntu looks better, I have found it does help attract newbies to linux. I used to have only ubuntu on my work computer and I would often show it to the windows users and would explain how much nicer a system to work in than windows, especially for programming and the kind of work I do, but nobody cared. After all you really need to use ubuntu for a little while to fully realise the benifits over Windows. However, with kubuntu I am getting a different reaction. People want it on their systems. It looks high tech, hell it looks better even better than Mac, where as ubuntu has to be dressed up to even look better than XP and even then it still doesn't seem to be enough to get people over from windows.

I just re-read the title of this thread and have to one, how on earth did this thread turn in to a comparison between ubuntu and kubuntu. To be honest I am happy with anything that makes (k)ubuntu better.

ranch hand
November 7th, 2009, 02:45 AM
I loath KDE and I have to agree that it does attract attention. That is why I have it on my "loaner" external. Some folks like it, particularly younger ones.

Kubuntu really does need some serious work. I will probably be using Mandriva for my KDE on that loaner because it works better (ignoring the RPMs).

I would rather use Kubuntu.

buzzmandt
November 7th, 2009, 09:56 PM
as a truck driver I'm in truck stops a lot, with my laptop, running (k)ubuntu. Not one time running ubuntu gnome did I get asked, what os is that or even what windows is that?. Not one time did I hear, that's a nice looking desktop.

Running kubuntu has gotten enough attention for someone to say what os is that? and what windows is that? Especially with kwin enabled with fall apart and wobbly windows enabled. throw in the cube and their sold. I know compiz does all this too but the "look" just isn't there to get them looking over my shoulder in the first place, whereas it is with k.

If the project is all it should be kubuntu will be sitting pretty in the market place (no pun intended).

krazyd
November 8th, 2009, 05:13 PM
The biggest issue I'm having right now is knetworkmanager asking for my password every login

you can change this. just right-click > Manage connections > Other > Connection Secrets, and select 'In File (unencrypted)'.

ubersoft
November 9th, 2009, 06:14 PM
I'm a big fan of KDE. In my opinion Kubuntu has been sort of a mixed bag, though it's worked "well enough" for me to keep using it. I have endless problems with kpackagekit and knetworkmanager (I usually switch to Synaptic and wicd, though this week I'm tryign to give the two a chance to win me over. So far kpackagekit is losing and knetworkmanager is... working well enough to leave it for now.) In 9.10 I found that the kde integration with openoffice had so many serious issues I had to uninstall it. But I'm running KDE 4.3.3 without any issues, and overall the system is fine once I iron out the bumpy bits.

I'm trying Mandrake out on another machine but I vastly prefer the debian package management system over urpmi/urpme/etc.

I hope Project Timelord works out because there are so many little things Kubuntu could do that would make it so much better than it is now. But as it is now, it's good enough for me to keep using it.

Though I will say from what I've heard it's a vastly different experience for people who are using the latest nvidia drivers (which I am) vs. just about everyone else...

ranch hand
November 9th, 2009, 06:27 PM
I am not a fan of KDE and adept (inept) was a crappy package manager. Replacing it with packagekit, call it what you will, is adding insult to injury. Stick with synaptic.

I have a KDE OS on my loner HDD so that folks have the choice. If I am using Kubuntu, synaptic is the package manager. There is no sense in running folks off because you have a package manager that sucks.

Zorael
November 9th, 2009, 08:20 PM
I use aptitude, and never with the actual textual interface. That and manual use of apt-cache and dpkg gets the job done.

Yes, Adept was slow and not that great. KPackageKit isn't really working yet, and I'm not sure why it's on the live CD. I'd say PackageKit as a joint effort is laudable though, but the current KDE frontend needs work.

Asraniel
November 10th, 2009, 12:45 PM
I really have to figure out what the problem with kpackagekit is. For me it does exactly what i want. i start it, search the package i want, select it to install, install. works. Updating is equaly as easy. what exactly is not working? (seriously, i like kpackagekit)

caryb
November 10th, 2009, 01:42 PM
I must agree with ranch hand about Kubuntu package management with the exception of adept 2 they have been shockers. I have been using Kubuntu since day 1 & have used Synaptic, (& still do) but I see that there are KDE apps like K3B & K9COPY etc that Gnome users use too. I don't see it as a weakness using Gnome apps in KDE & vice versa. What I would like to see is that we combine efforts & stop wasting our time & resources working on apps that are on the nose when *buntu has very good programs & well supported just because they are in the alternate DE.


2c & rant Cary

ranch hand
November 10th, 2009, 02:31 PM
If folks would check the history on a lot of apps they would be surprised how many started on the "other" desktop.

One of the things that many "popular" respins do is to package apps from anywhere they can get them because they are nice apps. Not because they are Gnome, KDE, Xfce, Lxde (I really like pcmanfm) or whatever.

meborc
November 10th, 2009, 04:38 PM
just because a package is used with a certain DE does not mean it belongs to it... the important part is to keep the number of libraries down, so that things could fit into 1 cd (or that they didn't take so much space on hdd). that means using either gtk or qt

IF all apps used qt (wet dream) there would be no problem... as discussed earlier, gtk could be replaced by qt in gnome... :) but i guess that will never happen

ranch hand
November 10th, 2009, 05:15 PM
Yes I doubt that kind of thing is likely. Of coarse maybe KDE would got to gtk.

Merk42
November 10th, 2009, 05:19 PM
I think it'd be great if they both used the same, but I highly doubt it'll ever happen.

caryb
November 11th, 2009, 03:50 AM
Yes I doubt that kind of thing is likely. Of coarse maybe KDE would got to gtk.


Now I need a vomit emoticon:P


Cary

symon1980
November 16th, 2009, 05:27 PM
Hahahahahaha

inportb
November 17th, 2009, 03:26 AM
This is a welcome initiative.



Of coarse maybe KDE would got to gtk.Now I need a vomit emoticon:P

Ugh me too lol. Qt apps look a lot better on Gnome than GTK+ apps look on KDE.

xebian
November 17th, 2009, 04:51 PM
Looks good on paper. So far there seems to be a positive uptake but the cold reception, or lack of it is disappointing.

umberstark
November 17th, 2009, 05:49 PM
QT over GTK for me.

Didn't Mark Shuttleworth once say something about hoping Gnome would drop GTK for QT?

Arlanthir
November 18th, 2009, 01:13 AM
I think this is really needed, Ubuntu just seems to get much more lovin'.

This actually made me try KDE and so far I'm liking it. If gnome-shell is a flop this is where I'll be :)

23meg
November 18th, 2009, 05:04 AM
Didn't Mark Shuttleworth once say something about hoping Gnome would drop GTK for QT?

No.

Zorael
November 18th, 2009, 08:11 AM
QT over GTK for me.

Didn't Mark Shuttleworth once say something about hoping Gnome would drop GTK for QT?

http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/07/14/1245204

Seriously. This is going to be one of the biggest misquoted articles of the year because some Slashdot nobody editor decided to take Shuttleworth's words out of question's context.

inportb
November 18th, 2009, 06:46 PM
QT over GTK for me.

Didn't Mark Shuttleworth once say something about hoping Gnome would drop GTK for QT?

Then Gnome would be Qnome... and I'm not sure sabdfl said that.