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wildman4god
September 27th, 2009, 08:26 PM
I know this is a womans sub board, so I hope I don't get in trouble for posting here, It just seems like the most logical place to ask this question. The question is "how many of you women experience sexism on the Ubuntu Message boards?" The reason I ask is I have read a few blog post lately that say there is a lot of sexism in FOSS, I have only been on the Ubuntu boards but over the past year, year and a half I can't remember anyone being sexist, But I would like to see if women actually have on the Ubuntu Boards, because I think there is a policy against sexism on these boards. Again sorry if I am not allowed to post here.

aysiu
September 27th, 2009, 08:34 PM
I know this is a womans sub board, so I hope I don't get in trouble for posting here No, you won't get into trouble. From the subforum sticky (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=34679):
This forum section is for Ubuntu Women, a group designed to make women feel more comfortable in the Ubuntu Community and the Linux Community at large. It is NOT meant to separate women from the rest of the community.

macogw
September 29th, 2009, 12:16 PM
Hopefully very few. We try to moderate well.

Do you count the assumption that anyone into computers must be male as sexist? I do. If you agree that this is sexism:
- In this forum a couple weeks ago a man expressed surprise at the mention of a 19 year old woman using Linux
- In a thread dedicated to talking about how hot the Miss Universe contestants are, I said I hope they are judged more strongly on their brains than looks. I was assumed to be a male eunuch.
- A couple months ago in this forum a few men made the claim that women's brains simply couldn't handle working on Free Software the way men's can. Also, that the men needed to mansplain to women all about how women work and what women feel--because we are incapable of recognizing or understanding our own thoughts and feelings.

Hrm, kinda funny that 2 of the most sexist comments I can remember were in the UW subforum.


I cannot attest to how many women are harassed on the boards in private message, however. Since I'm a mod, people are usually smart enough not to harass me ;)

wildman4god
September 29th, 2009, 01:50 PM
Thanks for answering my question, I was just wondering if the ubuntu forums were living up to it's code of conduct, if not we need to do something about it. Me personally I highly respect women and believe that women can greatly contribute to open source projects (or anything for that matter). I have heard a lot about sexism in FOSS lately and if there is anything I can do to make the situation better let me know.

wildman4god
September 29th, 2009, 01:53 PM
Do you count the assumption that anyone into computers must be male as sexist? I do. If you agree that this is sexism:



I would agree this is sexism, although myself I find it hard to tell if a person on the message boards are female or male. Some times I can tell from your user name and avitar but sometimes not so much.

macogw
September 29th, 2009, 02:17 PM
Ya know what? Perfect timing! Have a look through the SHEBUNTU thread for lots of sexism, mansplaining, and othering.

wildman4god
September 29th, 2009, 02:29 PM
Yeah I looked through it, I don't think he's trying to be sexist but in the end he is being sexist. I don't think women (or anybody) needs a special version of ubuntu costomized for them, the beauty of linux in general is that you can customize it for you. If you can't or don't want to customize linux your self perhaps you shouldn't be using it. I don't believe ubuntu is for everyone, some people just can't handle having complete control over their desktop environment, that's why mac locks every thing down, because we keep hearing horror stories of how windows users keep deleting system files. Seriously women are more than capable of installing apps, themes, and what ever else they need and/or want in ubuntu. And even if women did need help (which they don't, I'm just playing devils advocate for a second) a man would be the least qualified person to make a distro for women, it would be just as instaulting to have a woman explian to me what it means to be a man.

macogw
September 29th, 2009, 02:34 PM
heh it's not just the OP that's being sexist. Right now, I feel like infracting 3/4 of the people in that thread.

MelDJ
September 29th, 2009, 02:39 PM
some men should learn to respect women. quite sad to see how some men think of women

wildman4god
September 29th, 2009, 02:42 PM
some men should learn to respect women. quite sad to see how some men think of women

Ditto, sometimes I'm ashamed to be a man after I see how most of them treat women.

MelDJ
September 29th, 2009, 02:45 PM
i am a man too. (maybe a boy actually because i am only 17). perceiving that women like pink, dont like computers, cant do anything, is so baseless. we are all humans, we all have our talents and are equal.

renkinjutsu
September 29th, 2009, 03:03 PM
Ditto, sometimes I'm ashamed to be a man after I see how most of them treat women.

NEVER be ashamed to be a man!

What you need is not one of those "Don't lump me together with those fools" attitude.. What you really need is to be able to distinguish REAL men from the hooligans..


-- also, don't read beyond this point if you're a busy person..

My opinion on the matter is that men usually base their views of women on their mothers(whether we like it or not); being the first women we've ever known and all.. But as you know, a mother PROBABLY doesn't show all of her dimensions to her child.. maybe just the motherly/caretaker side plus a few others.. There are many things the child doesn't know about..

just my insight.

MelDJ
September 29th, 2009, 03:08 PM
never be ashamed to be a man!

What you need is not one of those "don't lump me together with those fools" attitude.. What you really need is to be able to distinguish real men from the hooligans..

.


+10000

juancarlospaco
September 29th, 2009, 03:52 PM
You can readme on the disguise tread ot shesbuntu, but...

I sometimes expressed surprise at the mention of any young person using Linux,
because i like to bring up more people to Linux when young, i dont know if this is bad.

And i got female business partner,
that talks about how hot the XYZ male singer are,
I said I hope he are judged more strongly on their brains than looks or sing,
i dont know if this is bad..

So maybe its the same sometimes doesnt matter of sex
:)

macogw
September 29th, 2009, 04:12 PM
-- also, don't read beyond this point if you're a busy person..

My opinion on the matter is that men usually base their views of women on their mothers(whether we like it or not); being the first women we've ever known and all.. But as you know, a mother PROBABLY doesn't show all of her dimensions to her child.. maybe just the motherly/caretaker side plus a few others.. There are many things the child doesn't know about..

just my insight.
There's also pop-culture / the media. Because ugh, really? Not every woman is June Cleaver.

MelDJ
September 29th, 2009, 04:32 PM
upbringing is a factor too. my mum thought me how to treat and respect girls. respect to girls is quite hard to find among boys. then when they become adults, they look down on women as inferior to men

wildman4god
September 29th, 2009, 04:39 PM
For most people, men inparticular, media and pop culture is the most powerful influence in their lives. However there are a few of us the choose to listen to our parents, teatchers, pastors, etc... instead of media.

Seriously its rediculous, i've seen grown men take the advice of a comedian over their parents or teachers.

doas777
September 29th, 2009, 04:52 PM
well, part of the issue is conflicting cultural values. in My culture, sexism is bad, while some cultures believe that equal rights are bad. which one is right? I have my answer so i;m not qualified to judge how others should behave, unless I am directly involved in the conversation.

cmay
September 29th, 2009, 05:17 PM
Hopefully very few. We try to moderate well.

Do you count the assumption that anyone into computers must be male as sexist? I do. If you agree that this is sexism:
- In this forum a couple weeks ago a man expressed surprise at the mention of a 19 year old woman using Linux
- In a thread dedicated to talking about how hot the Miss Universe contestants are, I said I hope they are judged more strongly on their brains than looks. I was assumed to be a male eunuch.
- A couple months ago in this forum a few men made the claim that women's brains simply couldn't handle working on Free Software the way men's can. Also, that the men needed to mansplain to women all about how women work and what women feel--because we are incapable of recognizing or understanding our own thoughts and feelings.

Hrm, kinda funny that 2 of the most sexist comments I can remember were in the UW subforum.


I cannot attest to how many women are harassed on the boards in private message, however. Since I'm a mod, people are usually smart enough not to harass me ;)

I can remember one time a mod called laroza had somewhere in the forums told that she was a girl. and then after that I saw that she in a post also mentioned that this episode had to some of the forum members mend that they interacted with her differently-.

I also remember one certain episode where she put a certain male poster in his place for making a bit too sexually oriented post direted to her.
I guess that not all are smart enough to not harras the mods even that it might not be the most common thing.

I however think its a shame how all the threads that brings this subject up gets closed. I have very little to say other than I dislike sexism and racism. it is too me the same thing but why could we not just make a tread that could allow all the different views no matter how heated things might get to once and for all settle this .

I do not purpose this thread as sort of the ones that survieve is right and those who didendt was wrong but as a means of once and for all if anthing that seems to important enough to keep popping up from time to time be discussed until there is no more to add to the discussion.

just a suggestion.

Bachstelze
September 29th, 2009, 05:46 PM
well, part of the issue is conflicting cultural values. in My culture, sexism is bad, while some cultures believe that equal rights are bad. which one is right? I have my answer so i;m not qualified to judge how others should behave, unless I am directly involved in the conversation.

Of course you're qualified to judge how others should behave, and in that particular case (and lots of others), you should do just that. Refusal to "judge" others, because after all, it's just a matter of "cultural values" is a plague and has led to countless atrocities. If you had a mutilated woman right in front of you, would you tell her "I'm not qualified to judge, it's just cultural values"?

cmay
September 29th, 2009, 06:43 PM
Ok here is two episodes from my life experience that tells a bit about how weak and defenceless woman are.

I know from that I worked on a farm where the woman and man did equally work outside and the man sat down tired and unable to do more that day while the woman still had the entire household to take care off I would say that man and women are a bit different . woman does work harder at any day I seemed to have noticed.

Woman are not small little defenceless creatures in my family either. I have a family member that once stabbed her husband with a fork because that was the closest thing on the table and he still try to tell the story as it was a big kitchen knife she had used. that hurt his ego a bit that episode. :)

my sister deals with sexual unwanted attention in a bit different way than most men would expect. she has beat more than one man up and there is several bars she is not allowed to come to because she has broken some ones nose or arm or whatever.

so .... I guess that all imaginations I sometimes see that the woman are not equally strong intelligent or what ever is something that is simply not true. at least from my perspective.

based on this I would say that in all relations it is better to meet others with respect and never to talk down to anyone. not even a child as children has still a free will and a mind of its own. I think it is all in all as simple as that.

doas777
September 29th, 2009, 07:01 PM
Of course you're qualified to judge how others should behave, and in that particular case (and lots of others), you should do just that. Refusal to "judge" others, because after all, it's just a matter of "cultural values" is a plague and has led to countless atrocities. If you had a mutilated woman right in front of you, would you tell her "I'm not qualified to judge, it's just cultural values"?

in that example, i am involved in the "conversation" whether i like it or not.
now imagine your argument in reverse, where someone from a different culture is not abusing someone, even though your culture says they should. would you be required to "Judge" and thus abuse that person?

aysiu
September 29th, 2009, 07:05 PM
I think the key thing here is to not make assumptions about anyone based on broad categories that person fits into (gender, nationality, ethnic affiliation, native language, economic status, formal education level).

It doesn't matter what generalizations you think have some grain of truth to them. Imposing stereotypes on other people is unfair.

I wrote at length about this on my blog: Let nature do its own work (http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntucat/let-nature-do-its-own-work/)

I can't know just from the fact that a person is female that... that anything. I can't know if she's attracted to men or women or both or neither. I can't know what movies she likes. I can't know how physically strong or weak she is. I can't know what interest or lack of interest she has in technology. There is nothing I can tell about a person from just knowing that person's genitalia.

And, frankly, I get annoyed the other way, too. I'm biologically male. But I don't do a lot of stereotypically male things, and I don't like it when people try to box me in that way.

I don't think it's that difficult to recognize that most people on a Linux forum will be male while also acknowledging that females are also here and should not be ignored and should not have to pass as male to be treated with dignity.

macogw
October 1st, 2009, 03:37 PM
I can remember one time a mod called laroza had somewhere in the forums told that she was a girl. and then after that I saw that she in a post also mentioned that this episode had to some of the forum members mend that they interacted with her differently-.
LaRoza revealed gender? LaRoza always said "I am borg. Borg have no gender."


I however think its a shame how all the threads that brings this subject up gets closed. I have very little to say other than I dislike sexism and racism. it is too me the same thing but why could we not just make a tread that could allow all the different views no matter how heated things might get to once and for all settle this .
I think the issue is that the non-sexist people are in the minority :( So
we go in there going "hello! Women are not incapable of using computers!" and get drowned out in a thread full of "yeah, women are all inherently bad with computers. It's biology."

ikt
October 1st, 2009, 04:41 PM
If you had a mutilated woman right in front of you, would you tell her "I'm not qualified to judge, it's just cultural values"?

What if she said "it's just cultural values", aren't women the ones who are the primarily doing FGM?

I feel contempt and hatred for religion and yet many women run along with it, so I am mostly ashamed to be human.

One of the biggest things that is putting me off is the amount of drama coming from a small group of hardcore anti-sexism people who jump like the world is falling in at every little thing, Mark Shuttleworth's linuxcon speech was 10/10, and one of the few speechs I have watched in full, seeing the 'anti-sexism parade' response was the last straw, if it had been Grandpa or dad, or the grandpa test, or if Mark was a girl and said, "it would be easier to explain to guys what we do" I would have not even noticed.

I'm over it.

http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/39826

Is just embarrassing.

oldos2er
October 1st, 2009, 05:11 PM
LaRoza revealed gender? LaRoza always said "I am borg. Borg have no gender."


LaRoza was/is a man. There was quite a long thread in the Community Cafe about it, over a year ago I believe.

aysiu
October 1st, 2009, 05:28 PM
One of the biggest things that is putting me off is the amount of drama coming from a small group of hardcore anti-sexism people who jump like the world is falling in at every little thing, Mark Shuttleworth's linuxcon speech was 10/10, and one of the few speechs I have watched in full, seeing the 'anti-sexism parade' response was the last straw, if it had been Grandpa or dad, or the grandpa test, or if Mark was a girl and said, "it would be easier to explain to guys what we do" I would have not even noticed. But he didn't say that, and that's what people are upset about. You can't live in a cultural vacuum.

People in FOSS communities are not as likely to say "It would be easier to explain to guys what we do" or "grandpa" or "dad" as they are to say "It would be easier to explain to girls what we do" or "grandma" or "mom."

Here's a great example: Ubuntu good enough for grannies and girlfriends (http://shaneosullivan.wordpress.com/2009/09/29/ubuntu-good-enough-for-grannies-and-girlfriends/)

The blog post is about how the author's girlfriend is tech-phobic and fine with Ubuntu. So suddenly that extends to all girlfriends? And grannies, too?!

There is definitely a stereotype prevalent in the Ubuntu community (yes, on these very forums, too) that females are somehow as a whole tech-deficient. So when you say "It would be easier to explain to girls what we do" you are reinforcing that stereotype and that notion. You are also subtly making the men the "we" and the girls the "them," when really "we" should be the whole Ubuntu Linux community, which includes (even though they are a minority) women, too. Likewise, "them" consists of both men and women in great numbers (people who do not understand Linux in general or Ubuntu Linux specifically).

Really, though, it becomes a big deal only if people are in denial that it's a problem.

If someone says "I took issue with Mark's remark for these reasons." And you say "Yes, you're correct." Then it blows over. If, however, you say "It's not a problem. What's with all this political correctness. I found it funny. Can't you take a joke? If I don't mind insults why can't everyone not mind insults? If he substituted in 'guys' for 'girls' it wouldn't be a problem," then you're the one making it a bigger deal than it is. It then becomes this huge argument.

And I really get sick of this whole idea of "If I don't get offended by it, why should you?" mentality. It makes no sense. You are not the center of the world. There are other people in it, too.

So you get offended by anti-sexism folks? Well, what if I said I'm not offended by them? Do I get to totally dismiss your feelings?

We don't live in a cultural vacuum.

macogw
October 1st, 2009, 08:33 PM
LaRoza was/is a man. There was quite a long thread in the Community Cafe about it, over a year ago I believe.

I remember the thread, and LaRoza posted a "topless" picture. The Borg Queen, separated at the waist.


http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/39826

Is just embarrassing.

TuxMachines person made it pretty clear in that post they hate Ubuntu and are looking for an excuse to boycott.

ikt
October 1st, 2009, 10:33 PM
You are also subtly

Yes, it was so subtle it didn't even register on my mind or anyone else who I linked to the video, I mean I've seen some of the previous things on geekfeminism that are without a doubt worthy of hitting the rage bottle, naked women in a slide at a professional conference is atrocious, implying sexism when mark says he'd like to impress girls by having more usable software is stretching it.



then you're the one making it a bigger deal than it is. It then becomes this huge argument.

Actually I'm pretty sure it's not me, after all I watched the video and are now just expressing my disapointment at the responses to the video, if people watched the video and didn't nitpick the hell out of it there wouldn't be a big deal, I'm not happy about the nitpicking, the porno slideshow is a big deal and definitely is worthy of a response.

I think they would better spend time going back over old microsoft speeches by bill gates to see if he implied any sexism subtly.




And I really get sick of this whole idea of "If I don't get offended by it, why should you?" mentality. It makes no sense. You are not the center of the world. There are other people in it, too.

No, I'm outright saying what he said was not offensive, that is I believe they are nitpicking.



So you get offended by anti-sexism folks?

Nope, in fact I was 110% behind anti-sexism.. which means I could back track 10% and I'd still be 100% behind anti-sexism.. and saying that.. I am still 110% behind anti-sexism, it's stupid and pointless.

Why would I get offended by anti-sexism, working with women has been a positive experience for me and I enjoy it very much, I work in an industry which has more women than men (retail) thus I work with a lot of great women.

I mean again, I struggle to get offended about something so small and I'm trying to rationalise it, I'm trying to be offended.. it's not happening though, I see are so many women willing to accept Christianity or Islam (the 2 most sexist things in existence) but mark says "guys" a lot and all of sudden it's the worst most sexist thing ever.


maco

@evan from what folks there said, he was making a joke and girls == women

maco

@evan like as in trying to impress/pickup chicks

I can't find the outrage in the above.

I thought he was going to get more outrage about the "Shut the **** up protocol"

:/


I remember the thread, and LaRoza posted a "topless" picture. The Borg Queen, separated at the waist.


TuxMachines person made it pretty clear in that post they hate Ubuntu and are looking for an excuse to boycott.

I just noticed you are the same maco as the one who posted what I quoted, what are your thoughts on this? I'm really trying to see it.

aysiu
October 1st, 2009, 10:39 PM
I mean again, I struggle to get offended about something so small and I'm trying to rationalise it, I'm trying to be offended.. Why does everything have to be only offensive or not offensive? That is a false dichotomy. Forget about offense. You don't have to get caught up in the term of offense or offensive. Mark chose certain words to express a point and better words could have been chosen that would be less exclusive. Has Mark committed a grave offense? Should he be locked up in prison? Is he a chauvinist pig? No, no, and no.

Does that mean nothing could be suggested for him to change in his speeches to better include those who are usually excluded in FOSS communities? Again, no.

I don't really care what offends you or doesn't offend you. I do care if Mark can express the same point in a more inclusive way that he consider doing so.

ikt
October 1st, 2009, 10:47 PM
Why does everything have to be only offensive or not offensive? That is a false dichotomy. Forget about offense. You don't have to get caught up in the term of offense or offensive. Mark chose certain words to express a point and better words could have been chosen that would be less exclusive. Has Mark committed a grave offense? Should he be locked up in prison? Is he a chauvinist pig? No, no, and no.

Does that mean nothing could be suggested for him to change in his speeches to better include those who are usually excluded in FOSS communities? Again, no.

I don't really care what offends you or doesn't offend you. I do care if Mark can express the same point in a more inclusive way that he consider doing so.

I understand what you're saying but I don't think you're addressing what I am trying to figure out, could he have been more inclusive? yes, is this worthy of 10 front pages calling for him to say sorry to all the people he offended, multiple OMGWTF blog and twitter posts.. ? where is the offense, what is to say sorry for, sorry I was not inclusive enough?

The thing that saddens me the most is that a large number of blog posts have shown people to be more immature than I imagined, and jono bacon who I thought was supposed to be this horrible sexist guy ends up making a fantastic post.

http://www.jonobacon.org/2009/09/30/changing-the-conversation/


I am tired of seemingly only ever reading about the topic of women in Open Source within the context of a conflict scenario which typically spawns a spat over whether specific behaviour is deemed offensive or not. It feels like the topic has become very one-dimensional.

heh

alienclone
October 1st, 2009, 11:05 PM
this entire thread is pointless.

oldos2er
October 2nd, 2009, 12:14 AM
The thing I find most distressing about Mr Shuttleworth's comments is how at odds they are with the "humanity toward others" theme. Perhaps I was naive to take that theme at face value.

lyndaj70
October 2nd, 2009, 12:51 AM
The thing I find most distressing about Mr Shuttleworth's comments is how at odds they are with the "humanity toward others" theme. Perhaps I was naive to take that theme at face value.

I wasn't crazy about his comments either :(

When I first started working on computers I got cussed by irate males thinking a woman couldn't know squat about computers. You deal with it.

I've been tinkering with Linux since 1999. Dived in headfirst without a net lol! Been with Ubuntu since 2004. Last I looked I was a girl :lolflag:

Perhaps the image of gender disparity is because it is so easy to be asexual here.. I posted a thread asking about how many women were on the forums and was surprised at the response - and some guys shocked that some of their buddies were female! Perhaps Mr. Shuttleworth doesn't realise how many of us females there are here :guitar:

Peace!

aysiu
October 2nd, 2009, 12:59 AM
When I first started working on computers I got cussed by irate males thinking a woman couldn't know squat about computers. You deal with it. Yes, you do deal with it. You shouldn't have to, though, especially with someone who touts his distro as being about humanity toward others.

oldos2er
October 2nd, 2009, 02:11 AM
I've been tinkering with Linux since 1999. Dived in headfirst without a net lol! Been with Ubuntu since 2004. Last I looked I was a girl :lolflag:


Yeah. I was an OS/2 user for 12 (!) years; the fact that I was female kind of got lost in the shuffle of the OS wars. Guess I'm used to being seen as an outsider.

Thanks for your post.

ikt
October 2nd, 2009, 01:29 PM
When I first started working on computers I got cussed by irate males thinking a woman couldn't know squat about computers. You deal with it.

You got insulted by angry males, because they thought a woman couldn't know anything about computers?

That's hilarious. Ah, the brains of 15 year old basement virgins.

offgridguy
October 21st, 2012, 10:11 PM
;)
this entire thread is pointless.
Hmmmm, but then with a name like offgridguy.....;)

Bucky Ball
September 8th, 2013, 04:25 PM
I know this is nearly a year old but wanted to add my thoughts re. this from another man and staff member.


... I find it hard to tell if a person on the message boards are female or male.

I think that is a good thing and don't think it should be a concern. A forum user is a forum user. Period. We are all human, that is pretty much a given, and I tend to leave it at that. Don't really think about gender, have never really tried to guess one way or the other as not bothered one way or the other when it comes to support.

Some users, and particularly other staff, I've had interactions with for ages and have no idea of their gender. I do know, though, that there are users and staff of both sexes hanging about here that are more knowledgable than I would ever aspire to be in some areas (most, actually).

I also actively attempt to dissuade things like 'Hey guys' and 'Can you guys help with this'. Assumption, and I think there should be a more definite forum wide policy on this. (It has been discussed amongst staff on and off since I've been a staff member but nothing's ever been set in stone).

Nice to visit Ubuntu Women and, to be honest, I had no idea this sub-forum existed after haunting the forum for five years or more. ;)