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View Full Version : Microsoft charging for anti-virus now...



aysiu
February 8th, 2006, 09:50 PM
http://blogs.washingtonpost.com/securityfix/2006/02/microsoft_antiv.html

Seems kind of weird. Don't they take any pride in the quality of their product? My landlord didn't charge me extra to put a lock on the apartment door.

Oh, well. I love Ubuntu.

xequence
February 8th, 2006, 09:53 PM
Discraceful...

It will only add more fuel to the fire of the people who hate microsoft. They could atleast try and make the people that hate them hate them a little less by making it free.

rfruth
February 8th, 2006, 09:59 PM
It is strange that Microsoft is charging to plug holes that they created but then again with windows malware is pretty much a given so $ 50 a year is money well spent :(

transactionlogfiller
February 8th, 2006, 10:02 PM
I think it was a case of damned if they do, damned if they don't. If they'd have given AV software away for free it would have taken about 2 seconds for someone like Symantec to scream about unfair use of a monopoly. I really don't think that, in Europe at least, they would be able to bundle any more free software into their OS.

xequence
February 8th, 2006, 10:09 PM
windows malware is pretty much a given

Nope.

I dont want to go over how I dont use an anti-whatever on my windows PC and it is perfectly fine, as I tell many many people on many websites, so, meh.


I think it was a case of damned if they do, damned if they don't. If they'd have given AV software away for free it would have taken about 2 seconds for someone like Symantec to scream about unfair use of a monopoly. I really don't think that, in Europe at least, they would be able to bundle any more free software into their OS.

Thats a good point...

jc87
February 8th, 2006, 10:18 PM
I think it was a case of damned if they do, damned if they don't. If they'd have given AV software away for free it would have taken about 2 seconds for someone like Symantec to scream about unfair use of a monopoly. I really don't think that, in Europe at least, they would be able to bundle any more free software into their OS.

The problem is that M$ merges theirs apps with the OS , when you install Windows , IE , WMP , Outlook and MSN are also installed .

If they made their apps installation optional , it would be up to the consumer to choose if they want or not to use M$ software , and we would have less one reazon to hate M$ (but still plenty others).

xequence
February 8th, 2006, 10:20 PM
If they made their apps installation optional , it would be up to the consumer to choose if they want or not to use M$ software , and we would have less one reazon to hate M$ (but still plenty others).

I would like that.

But ubuntu doesent give that option ether, you know? Its all or almost nothing.

Good idea to implement into dapper though ;)

curuxz
February 8th, 2006, 10:28 PM
I always install server mode so i can chose!

Its diffrent on ubuntu the software is not only working and usefull but its free. I dont want all the m$ bull that they install it. Dapper has no need to make users chose since ubuntu is designed to be easy to use, hence getting rid of the install time package manager like in most distros!

xequence
February 8th, 2006, 11:00 PM
Dapper has no need to make users chose since ubuntu is designed to be easy to use, hence getting rid of the install time package manager like in most distros!

If they want to make the dapper install easier they can make it so you dont need to have any input random times throughout the installation. They could get all the info they need at the first... And ask "Would you like to select certain packages to install? (Probably only for advanced users)" so you can if you want.

wrtpeeps
February 8th, 2006, 11:26 PM
i agree. being able to input everything at the start would mean i can walk away and leave the install running, rather than having to sit with it :)

aysiu
February 8th, 2006, 11:30 PM
Debian's installer currently (in Sarge) does this. Just FYI.

prizrak
February 8th, 2006, 11:34 PM
1) MS's One Care Live services aren't meant to replace their free updates. This is a premium service and makes sense that they would charge for.
2) Ubuntu bundling software != MS bundling. After all Dell, Toshiba, IBM, Sony, etc... all bundle software with your system for user benefit. The problem with MS is that all the software is made by them as opposed to other companies. Ubuntu doesn't have that problem, I would like to have an advanced install option that lets me choose packages. I would actually go as far as wanting a boot only CD that will let me chose between Ubuntu, Xubuntu, Kubuntu, and Edubuntu as well as individual packages and possibly enabling extra repos as well so that I wouldnt' have to run Automatix/Easy Ubuntu afterwards. The current way works just fine for most people and takes very little time to install and configure everything the way you want it. So I say stick with it.

Derek Djons
February 9th, 2006, 12:25 AM
Of course I can only laugh after reading this but it doesn't shocks me. Let's face it. Though there are a lot of holes in Microsoft's OS and software people can't expect Microsoft (or any other company) to pre-exclude all possible hacks which even haven't been discovered. But it's not only Microsoft's OS and software which is the factor.

1. Hardware
* People use wireless but don't secure it.
* People setup routers but even don't turn on it's firewall.

2. Software
* People buy virusscanners but don't configure and update the definitions.
* People download all kinds of (cracked) software which sometimes contains a virus.
* People visit websites and accept all kinds of cookies, dialers and installers.
* People install software without checking the extra software and functions being installed or not by default.
* People open emails from people they don't know.

AND EVEN MORE!

For these reasons alone I don't see why Microsoft (a Closed Source Software Developer) shouldn't charge for it's premium service. What... are people that stupid thinking it's all Microsoft fault? This is a product (of which the quality can't be judged properply yet since it's beta) which helps people. These people plugged into the Matrix don't have to wonder around shops and internet websites searching through tons of different anti-virus packets and subscriptions. Microsoft is offering it's battery a beyond-the-box service which will make things a tiny bit easier for them.

I also like the discussion that Microsoft should stop providing software like Windows Media Player, Internet Explorer, Outlook Express installed by default. If it wasn't for Microsoft to include these programs by default I think Windows 95 would have never became that popular. Back then when it came out the internet wasn't an option to download 20mb to 30mb of additional software using your Phone Modem. But also today it's still a plus. In the world of Closed Source Development other companies could have charged big time for their products if IE, OE and WMP wouldn't have excisted. Like owning a Windows computer isn't expensive enough these days.

Virogenesis
February 9th, 2006, 01:24 AM
Well poor design plays a big part of the virii scene if MS designed windows like UNIX from the word go then they couldn't have half as many problems.
FACT!!!

Bill gates claimed users didn't want security they wanted usability so they put usability before security.
FACT!!!

Mac Os X is a far more superior product they have managed to balance the two.
Opinion!!!

Microsoft with their monoculture they created have created the problems allowing users to have choice keeps virii down.
Look at linux look at how hard it would be to create a virus that targets all users
FACT!!!


I'm expecting them to integrate it into the OS and I'm also it will be embeded into the OS and then try to say its needed to be integrated to perform its tasks when they go to court for anti competitive practices.
Opinion borderline Fact!!!

Users will feel the need to use the software from Microsoft just like how users hate windows media player but they use it because they can't remove it as its a core part of windows.
FACT!!!

prizrak
February 9th, 2006, 03:03 AM
Well poor design plays a big part of the virii scene if MS designed windows like UNIX from the word go then they couldn't have half as many problems.
FACT!!!

Wrong, the design isn't poor at all. NT was designed by the man who created VMS and it's actually very close to Unix design. The problem is in the implementation (system defaults for the most part).

Bill gates claimed users didn't want security they wanted usability so they put usability before security.
FACT!!!

Define usability

Microsoft with their monoculture they created have created the problems allowing users to have choice keeps virii down.
Look at linux look at how hard it would be to create a virus that targets all users
FACT!!!


Apache Slammer would be one example. Viruses attack software not the kernel if Firefox is the most used Linux browser any Firefox exploit will affect all machines running it.

Users will feel the need to use the software from Microsoft just like how users hate windows media player but they use it because they can't remove it as its a core part of windows.
FACT!!!
WMP is easily removed and few people I know hate it. In fact most thought I was crazy for using MPC and Winamp. (I don't use Windows anymore so they think I'm crazy for using Ubuntu instead)

Virogenesis
February 9th, 2006, 04:13 AM
Wrong, the design isn't poor at all. NT was designed by the man who created VMS and it's actually very close to Unix design. The problem is in the implementation (system defaults for the most part).
It is badly designed and its nothing like Unix thats why Vista is trying to be more like Unix.
Windows has nothing like IPTables.
Did microsoft create active x?
Have a read and tell me if you still think windows has good design features by reading this article on Linux, Mac os X and Windows (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2003/10/06/linux_vs_windows_viruses/)



Define usability

Is a production environment where the user doesn't threated.

Heres two examples: Google and Mac Os X




Apache Slammer would be one example. Viruses attack software not the kernel if Firefox is the most used Linux browser any Firefox exploit will affect all machines running it.

Thats true to a certain point.
Aren't Microsoft the creators of IE, Windows Media Player, Outlook if they never had those programs install would there be less holes?




WMP is easily removed and few people I know hate it. In fact most thought I was crazy for using MPC and Winamp. (I don't use Windows anymore so they think I'm crazy for using Ubuntu instead)

Can you remove IE?
WMP can be removed sure but it will not integrate like winamp they could do what google do and create a api for media players to be more functional but they don't choice of theres creating a monoculture.

xequence
February 9th, 2006, 04:36 AM
Can you remove IE?

Only with another program made by some other company, that costs money.

Virogenesis
February 9th, 2006, 04:45 AM
I thought explorer used parts of Internet explorer in the past I've slipstreamed and removed alot of the stuff ms installs and traces are left behind as it integrates.

dickohead
February 9th, 2006, 04:50 AM
Integration is the key usability point of windows, IE works very well with media player and outlook express, it's a very very nice feature from a user's perspective. But it would be nice if they developed a system that instead of integrating windows media player, it integrated the functionality of the default player for users, and any programs that want to be useable need to be coded that way. The problems with windows is not all microsofts fault, they do not represent the entire commercial software world, nor do they, or should they, make their own products optional. It's in their best interests to ship Windows with as much usability as possible, so many people already complain that when they buy windows they can't even use word/excel/powerpoint. Windows is aimed at the lowest common denominator of user base, so not you or I, we know we have choice, and we choose to express that right. But for the users that don't give a stuff, should they forever be forced to install a barebones system without a browser, e-mail client, office suite, media player, virus scanner, firewall or image editing tools? The Linux community sure as hell doesn't ship barebones, it comes with HEAPS of software... so why can't Windows. A better idea would be to sell different versions of Windows:

Barebones: no e-mail, no browser, no office suite, no firewall, no anti-virus and no image editing tools

Full: Everything, the user chooses to buy the package with everything, including products like adobe reader, flash player and other very popular plugins.

Standard: No office and no plugins.

It would make a lot of peoples lives easier, and Microsoft would get some well needed street cred for "doing it right" by everyone involved.

WildTangent
February 9th, 2006, 04:56 AM
IE is needed by many apps in Windows. Examples: disk degragmenter, system restore, file browsing, control panel.

-Wild

xequence
February 9th, 2006, 04:58 AM
IE is needed by many apps in Windows. Examples: disk degragmenter, system restore, file browsing, control panel.

-Wild

The IE engine is needed. Not IE.

And when you do webbrowser functions in VB6 it uses the IE engine...

dickohead
February 9th, 2006, 05:00 AM
But surely there is a web browser module of that which can be removed? Or perhaps they need to make it that way. Ultimately users want choice, whether they express that right or not is not up to microsoft or anyone else to decide, the products should be made to work so they can be removed. Would save them lots of court costs!!!

WildTangent
February 9th, 2006, 05:08 AM
The IE engine is needed. Not IE.

And when you do webbrowser functions in VB6 it uses the IE engine...
A friend of mine removed IE and now his XP installation is screwed. Must have removed the whole engine.

-Wild

prizrak
February 9th, 2006, 06:21 AM
It is badly designed and its nothing like Unix thats why Vista is trying to be more like Unix.
Windows has nothing like IPTables.
Did microsoft create active x?
Have a read and tell me if you still think windows has good design features by reading this article on Linux, Mac os X and Windows

Windows has a Windows Firewall, which is alot like IPtables at least from the functional standpoint. Windows's design is not very different from *nix, it's a multiuser OS, it has file permissions (implemented differently from *nix). Show me fundamental difference in underlying design. I dont' see any. I read the article you linked to before, again we are talking implementation and defaults. Windows defaults (not with SP2) to having almost all of its RPC components listen on the network and give the first created user administrative rights. Linspire runs in root by default as well and it's Linux. The reason *most* Linux based OS's aren't as susceptible to viruses is the defaults they ship with as well as knowledge of the users.

Thats true to a certain point.
Aren't Microsoft the creators of IE, Windows Media Player, Outlook if they never had those programs install would there be less holes?

Firefox and Tbird have holes, so does Opera and Evolution. Any sufficiently complex software will have bugs its inevitable, any sufficiently popular software will have those bugs exploited.

Can you remove IE?
WMP can be removed sure but it will not integrate like winamp they could do what google do and create a api for media players to be more functional but they don't choice of theres creating a monoculture.
Can you remove Firefox from Ubuntu? You can but it will break stuff, read the backports section and see how many packages are dependent on it and why FF 1.5 won't be backported. Monoculture is not about the OS, like I said before Apache Slammer is a great example of a Linux worm. That worm worked on all Linux machines running Apache Web Server that didn't have the patch installed. You can say that Apache is also a monoculture, like half the web is run on that. With technologies such as Java, .Net and various Web protocols the underlying OS is becoming less and less important.

I'm not trying to defend Windows in any way after all I'm a complete Ubuntu user two comps two Ubuntu's. In this case though some of the things you listed as facts are in fact not, which is why I replied.

TechSonic
February 9th, 2006, 09:05 AM
Dear Windows OneCareT Live beta user,

Thanks for all your support and insightful feedback!

We want to share the results of our recent survey, give you the answers to your top questions, and give you a couple of other pieces of news.

Survey results
Thanks to the thousands of you who participated in our recent survey. Here are some of the key things you told us:

Over 70% of you said that you would recommend the product to someone you know.
* The top requested feature by our beta users is anti-spyware, which we are happy to tell you that it is right around the corner.
* Other requested features include a registry cleaner, e-mail scanning, and more back-up options. We hear you! We'll continue to improve and enhance the service.
* Your top questions:
Does Windows OneCare Live degrade my system performance?
1. Virtually all anti-virus programs have an impact on performance because they must constantly monitor your system. But this is usually unnoticeable to most users. If you are experiencing noticeable performance degradation with Windows OneCare Live installed, please check to see if you also have other anti-virus or firewall software installed. We've found that this is the root cause of most performance issues. Having more than one anti-virus product can also lead to other problems, like blue screens or crashes, so we recommend that you keep only one anti-virus application on your machine at any time.
Should I really uninstall my other anti-virus and firewall software?
2. Like we said, we recommend you keep only one version of anti-virus and firewall software on the same PC. Having more than one version can cause severe conflicts, and can in certain cases lock up your system.
Will anti-spyware features be included in Windows OneCare Live eventually?
3. Yes, and you will be one of the first users to know when it is.
My Windows OneCare Live icon is yellow because I haven't backed up—am I still protected?
4. Your anti-virus and firewall components are still helping to protect you from malware and viruses, but unless you back up your data, you could lose it. That yellow icon is to remind you that it is very important that you regularly back up your files, pictures, data, etc.
Does the beta team really read my posts and e-mails?
5. Every single one-your feedback is solid gold to us. And more testers means more feedback, so if you know someone who'd like to try out Windows OneCare Live please tell them to go to http://www.windowsonecare.com/.

Do you have a question that wasn't answered here?
You can find answers to most common questions, as well as troubleshooting tips, at the Windows OneCare Live Help Center.

Windows OneCare Live in the news
Just yesterday, we announced details on pricing and licensing for Windows OneCare Live when we plan to officially release it to the general public around June of this year. There will be a special discount available to beta users who sign up to become paid subscribers in April. This special offer and the beta program are currently available to US residents. If you're curious about the details, please see the press release at : http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2006/feb06/02-07OneCarePricingPR.mspx. You can keep up with this and other news at our blog: http://spaces.msn.com/windowsonecare/.

OneCare for your family and friends
Please encourage your friends and family to sign up for the beta at www.windowsonecare.com. Not only is it free, anyone who signs up will become eligible for that special discount in April.

Thanks for all you do.

Best regards,

The Windows OneCare Live beta team

prizrak
February 9th, 2006, 09:09 AM
We should ask them if it will work in Wine ;)

ice60
February 9th, 2006, 10:16 AM
i think nlite will remove IE, and in older windows versions, maybe pre NT, IE could be removed fairly easily.

xequence
February 9th, 2006, 03:27 PM
i think nlite will remove IE, and in older windows versions, maybe pre NT, IE could be removed fairly easily.

nLite doesent remove it from your OS. It lets you take an install CD, copy it to your computer, and change the install CD. It can slipstream service packs, and let the install cd not install some stuff, such as IE.

ice60
February 13th, 2006, 04:50 PM
nLite doesent remove it from your OS. It lets you take an install CD, copy it to your computer, and change the install CD. It can slipstream service packs, and let the install cd not install some stuff, such as IE.
i know.