What do you think is holding Linux/Ubuntu back at the moment?

[hoppipolla]

Just wondering if you think you can outline what it is Ubuntu really needs that will push it further, giving it more of the market and making it a more compelling choice for an end user.

The two I just outlined on my Twitter (not the most professional place to voice opinion I know but hey it's better than nothing) are strong apps within a particular field, such as Photoshop or Dreamweaver, and integration of stronger suites like iLife.

The former I feel will improve as Wine becomes better integrated, and as companies see more of a reason to port their software to Linux. The latter is perhaps the place of Ubuntu or a similar distribution to encourage, as it requires the kind of focus and integration often not associated with Open Source!! :)

Other things such as ease of use have a tiny way to go, but I believe this will get fixed with gradual development.

What do you think? :)

Hoppi ^_^

[bodyharvester]

general ignorance, that is what holds Ubuntu/Linux back.

EDIT: by "general ignorance" i mean the kind of people mentioned in the thread of the funniest things heard in a computer shop

[RiceMonster]

I don't think you can narrow it down to one or two things. It's a lot more complex than that.

[diablo75]

Time.

I mean, I've got most of my family using Ubuntu and know of several people who use it. I couldn't dare to say that only 4 years ago.

[ElSlunko]

I mean...when you speak of market share it's not easy to gauge based on factors like awesome applications that apple or adobe makes. The market share for THOSE power users isn't as high as the average check-your-email-facebook-IM people. Sure we power users are more visible but I think the big market isn't as reliant on those factors.

The factors that do lead to confidence in ANY product is visibility. We're pretty much invisible!

I believe and feel that the desktop is ready. My father a native of Mexico who didn't use the family computer for ANYTHING untill a year ago started out on Ubuntu. Now mind you he's the type of user that types with one finger and stares at an icon for 10 seconds before clicking it (drives me up the wall, let me tell ya) and after a while I installed windows on that box (Don't remember why). After 6 months of using windows her PREFERRED ubuntu. So yeah, that's just one example, but I think it's a good one.

Finally! It's just what people are used to. If you want to communicate over the MSN protocol, most people you ask will lead you to MSN messenger, not knowing the linux alternatives. Not getting clear & easy answers to common solutions will drive any average user away from a product.

I've heard it say many times that CLI rocks and GUI sucks! (Okay so I'm putting it simpler than most arguments would) but in the real world, WE are not average users. I'm willing to bet that most people posting today on these ubu-forums are probably the most tech-savy individuals in our families. Consider the size of your family and the ratio of you vs your family is? The rest of your family is the market share Linux is missing.

[MasterNetra]

I don't think you can narrow it down to one or two things. It's a lot more complex than that.

I can. General Ignorance (which I suppose includes M$'s mis-info campaign), Insufficent Support from Third Party companies. (Granted this is of course slowly changing but still.) And a Flahship Distro, so that companies can focus producing on one Linux Distro oppose to countless many. Linux Developers can take whats produced to that distro and mod it to work on the rest.

Side note I would like to see Ubuntu do the statistics thing like Fedora is doing. I mean companies would be more incline to make ports of their products to Linux if they can actually SEE that there are many Linux users. More often then not its not enough to say "yea there are a bunch of us" they want statistics not our word.

[hoppipolla]

I mean...when you speak of market share it's not easy to gauge based on factors like awesome applications that apple or adobe makes. The market share for THOSE power users isn't as high as the average check-your-email-facebook-IM people. Sure we power users are more visible but I think the big market isn't as reliant on those factors.

The factors that do lead to confidence in ANY product is visibility. We're pretty much invisible!

I believe and feel that the desktop is ready. My father a native of Mexico who didn't use the family computer for ANYTHING untill a year ago started out on Ubuntu. Now mind you he's the type of user that types with one finger and stares at an icon for 10 seconds before clicking it (drives me up the wall, let me tell ya) and after a while I installed windows on that box (Don't remember why). After 6 months of using windows her PREFERRED ubuntu. So yeah, that's just one example, but I think it's a good one.

Finally! It's just what people are used to. If you want to communicate over the MSN protocol, most people you ask will lead you to MSN messenger, not knowing the linux alternatives. Not getting clear & easy answers to common solutions will drive any average user away from a product.

I've heard it say many times that CLI rocks and GUI sucks! (Okay so I'm putting it simpler than most arguments would) but in the real world, WE are not average users. I'm willing to bet that most people posting today on these ubu-forums are probably the most tech-savy individuals in our families. Consider the size of your family and the ratio of you vs your family is? The rest of your family is the market share Linux is missing.

True, and the main reason I don't convert them is because well, a) it's too much hassle, and b) I do feel there are things that would not be sufficient for them on Ubuntu. Webcam, Wi-Fi support and the way things like repositories are added springs to mind... as does gaming ._.

None of those bother me too much though personally :)

[bodyharvester]

More often then not its not enough to say "yea there are a bunch of us" they want statistics not our word.

i dont think any statistics are accurate, MS may count me as a user of Windows as my netbook had xp on it, but i use Ubuntu. whatever MS shows as its "users" some of them must be using GNU/Linux or some alternative

ive seen people put OSX on their dell mini 9's

[TheStroj]

The most important thing that keeps people from using Linux is that they are not ready for changes, so they keep making up stupid excuses.

People think that Linux is too complicated for every-day use, which is NOT TRUE. Once you understand how to install programs, using Linux becomes really easy =).

[hoppipolla]

And a Flagship Distro, so that companies can focus producing on one Linux Distro oppose to countless many. Linux Developers can take whats produced to that distro and mod it to work on the rest.

At the moment it really is Ubuntu though, it's such a strong distribution... I mean just look at the figures on Distrowatch:

1 Ubuntu 2104
2 Fedora 1507
3 Mint 1284
4 openSUSE 1229
5 Mandriva 895


Ok the gap isn't quite as huge as I remember but it's still quite big lol :)

[MasterNetra]

i dont think any statistics are accurate, MS may count me as a user of Windows as my netbook had xp on it, but i use Ubuntu. whatever MS shows as its "users" some of them must be using GNU/Linux or some alternative

ive seen people put OSX on their dell mini 9's

Yes its not plausible to have completely accurate numbers. What they would be looking for is a general number, I mean Fedora shows 15,553,979 with the actual number believed to be higher. The company in question is going to know its not exactly 15,553,979 (even if it wasn't noted) giving the nature of it Their going to most likely view it as being 15.6 million users or something like that. The point of it is to give them a idea of how many people use Linux (or Fedora in this case), not exact user numbers, those don't exist.

[steveneddy]

Is the question:

What's holding the adoption of Ubuntu back?

It's because the masses don't know what Ubuntu is, they have no clue what Linux is and think that Windows is the only "computer" on the market.

You must also ask the question Why is Windows so successful?

Marketing, simply good marketing.

You can't be successful is business without advertising your product.

But, marketing is expensive.

Would YOU pay for Ubuntu?

If Ubuntu were marketed to the masses, would you use it after that? After Ubuntu had been "dumbed down" for the "average" user?

Would Ubuntu or another version of Linux have to be "dumbed down" for the "average" user for it to be successful? Or would new users just accept the command line?

Windows is successful because all you have to do is point, click, look and no typing. It is EXTREMELY easy for the AVERAGE user.

I would like to see Ubuntu become main stream, but don't want to lose the interface that I am comfortable with and really don't want/need point/click interfaces to get around.

Either a fork of Ubuntu for the masses, or a new DE for general "average" user usage.

But in the long run, the bottom line will be lots of money for lots of marketing.

[forestpiskie]

moved to recurring discussions

[forestpiskie]

forum hiccup :)

[sena_akada]

xorg
khtml
ati fglrx drivers
pulseaudio
xorg
grub2
nvidia drivers being cli install only
kde4 and wifi </3
& xorg Z_Z

[MasterNetra]

At the moment it really is Ubuntu though, it's such a strong distribution... I mean just look at the figures on Distrowatch:

1 Ubuntu 2104
2 Fedora 1507
3 Mint 1284
4 openSUSE 1229
5 Mandriva 895


Ok the gap isn't quite as huge as I remember but it's still quite big lol :)

Fedora though is gaining.

[TheStroj]

Is the question:

What's holding the adoption of Ubuntu back?

It's because the masses don't know what Ubuntu is, they have no clue what Linux is and think that Windows is the only "computer" on the market.

You must also ask the question Why is Windows so successful?

Marketing, simply good marketing.

You can't be successful is business without advertising your product.

But, marketing is expensive.

Would YOU pay for Ubuntu?

If Ubuntu were marketed to the masses, would you use it after that? After Ubuntu had been "dumbed down" for the "average" user?

Would Ubuntu or another version of Linux have to be "dumbed down" for the "average" user for it to be successful? Or would new users just accept the command line?

Windows is successful because all you have to do is point, click, look and no typing. It is EXTREMELY easy for the AVERAGE user.

I would like to see Ubuntu become main stream, but don't want to lose the interface that I am comfortable with and really don't want/need point/click interfaces to get around.

Either a fork of Ubuntu for the masses, or a new DE for general "average" user usage.

But in the long run, the bottom line will be lots of money for lots of marketing.

I could not agree more =)
With every new release of Windows, they make Windows easier to use. They say Windows 7 looks good and their Aero theme looks beautiful. Comparing to visual effects you can use on Linux, Windows looks like a piece of sh*t.

[Benzaa]

Uniformity

It most be a pain for big developers to focus on 1001 distributions.

[MasterNetra]

Is the question:

What's holding the adoption of Ubuntu back?

It's because the masses don't know what Ubuntu is, they have no clue what Linux is and think that Windows is the only "computer" on the market.

You must also ask the question Why is Windows so successful?

Marketing, simply good marketing.

You can't be successful is business without advertising your product.

But, marketing is expensive.

Would YOU pay for Ubuntu?

If Ubuntu were marketed to the masses, would you use it after that? After Ubuntu had been "dumbed down" for the "average" user?

Would Ubuntu or another version of Linux have to be "dumbed down" for the "average" user for it to be successful? Or would new users just accept the command line?

Windows is successful because all you have to do is point, click, look and no typing. It is EXTREMELY easy for the AVERAGE user.

I would like to see Ubuntu become main stream, but don't want to lose the interface that I am comfortable with and really don't want/need point/click interfaces to get around.

Either a fork of Ubuntu for the masses, or a new DE for general "average" user usage.

But in the long run, the bottom line will be lots of money for lots of marketing.

As far as I'm concern as long as you can still fully customize and use the advance tools I don't care. You can have the default setup designed for the average user, as long as the option for the more advanced stuff is still there why should it matter? As for marketing yea it needs it...Atm they get the most from Word of Mouth.

[steveneddy]

What if we had to pay for the next LTS?

Every user who wanted to upgrade to the LTS and have free updates after that to newer versions, until the next LTS came out, we all would have to pay.

What would this do for Ubuntu?

How much would you pay? $5 - $10 - $35

If 5 million users paid $5 each for the next LTS version of Ubuntu and were guaranteed free upgrades to newer versions until the next LTS, this would bring in $25 million dollars into the Ubuntu coffers.

How much marketing do we get for $25 million dollars?

After administration, printing and production costs there isn't much left for the message.

Are you willing to pay $35 for your next copy of Ubuntu? To ensure that the "message" gets out?

5 million users at $35 each is $175 million dollars. Is this enough? Or is that break even money?

Would Ubuntu make more money on selling support?

What about an $8 to $10 version and then if you need phone support, $20 more for phone support per year.

I wonder how much Mark has sank into Ubuntu so far just to get it to this level?

[oldsoundguy]

What is holding back Linux in general is the "it can't be any good because it is free" attitude.
That, and the FUD peeps read about just how "difficult and geeky" the system IS. (yea, it WAS, but not now .. takes a long time for that stigma to wear off!)

For granny surfing the web and doing eMail and eBay and not much more, it is almost ideal. (with the exception that auction template software does not work in Linux .. so that will kill off some potential users in the geriatric area)

I like to point out to that crowd, that IF they can learn HTML .. they can easily figure out Linux.

Oh, and re Fedora ... the last release of Fedora 11 was borked!
I tried to run as LIVE! on several machines and got a "your drive is about to die" message every time .. The hat wearers shot themselves in the foot on that one!!

[MasterNetra]

What if we had to pay for the next LTS?

Every user who wanted to upgrade to the LTS and have free updates after that to newer versions, until the next LTS came out, we all would have to pay.

What would this do for Ubuntu?

How much would you pay? $5 - $10 - $35

If 5 million users paid $5 each for the next LTS version of Ubuntu and were guaranteed free upgrades to newer versions until the next LTS, this would bring in $25 million dollars into the Ubuntu coffers.

How much marketing do we get for $25 million dollars?

After administration, printing and production costs there isn't much left for the message.

Are you willing to pay $35 for your next copy of Ubuntu? To ensure that the "message" gets out?

5 million users at $35 each is $175 million dollars. Is this enough? Or is that break even money?

Would Ubuntu make more money on selling support?

What about an $8 to $10 version and then if you need phone support, $20 more for phone support per year.

I wonder how much Mark has sank into Ubuntu so far just to get it to this level?

Won't happen not without Caronical breaking their promise of Ubuntu being free.

[RiceMonster]

Oh, and re Fedora ... the last release of Fedora 11 was borked!
I tried to run as LIVE! on several machines and got a "your drive is about to die" message every time .. The hat wearers shot themselves in the foot on that one!!

Well, somehow it managed to boot and install without problems on my computer. What about the people who have big problems with Ubuntu? "those Ubuntu folk shot themselves in the foot on that one!!"

[TheStroj]

What is holding back Linux in general is the "it can't be any good because it is free" attitude.
True. People also think that Linux is not safe because everyone can see it's source code.

[dzon65]

What it needs?...........MONEY!!!

[steveneddy]

Won't happen not without Caronical breaking their promise of Ubuntu being free.

We will have to adopt the business plan from the Red Hat/Fedora and Suse/OpenSuse Linux distros.

Ubuntu - $10

OpenUbuntu - free to upgrade from Ubuntu, if you paid your $10 and get your upgrade key - change the upgrade path - cutting edge users can upgrade to "newer version" by using the bleeding edge path - or stay on the LTS upgrade path by clicking the LTS upgrade button.

Next LTS - $10

Phone support - $20 for 12 months

The price to pay for Ubuntu being on the open market.

The $10 for Ubuntu helps support the forums and production costs for new Ubuntu CD's. No upgrades unless you put the CD in the drive so the software can read the upgrade key.

I think we need more investors. It's time for all of us to become investors in our operating system. Be a team player.

Now the question -

Will Ubuntu get "better" if we started paying for it?

[sudoer541]

We will have to adopt the business plan from the Red Hat/Fedora and Suse/OpenSuse Linux distros.

Ubuntu - $10

OpenUbuntu - free to upgrade from Ubuntu, if you paid your $10 and get your upgrade key - change the upgrade path - cutting edge users can upgrade to "newer version" by using the bleeding edge path - or stay on the LTS upgrade path by clicking the LTS upgrade button.

Next LTS - $10

Phone support - $20 for 12 months

The price to pay for Ubuntu being on the open market.

The $10 for Ubuntu helps support the forums and production costs for new Ubuntu CD's. No upgrades unless you put the CD in the drive so the software can read the upgrade key.

I think we need more investors. It's time for all of us to become investors in our operating system. Be a team player.

Now the question -

Will Ubuntu get "better" if we started paying for it?

$10 for an OS is very competative. OSX is $130.
I would definitely pay $10....am in!
yes it would get better, ubuntu is a good quality software(almost) if people realize its good and cheap, they will buy it. example: my cousin has a mac and he had windows xp on another partition. He bought snow leopard because he said "its a good quality product, works better than windows and its dead cheap compared to windows ultimate!" ohh an he is not upgrading to windows 7.

[ak331]

True, and the main reason I don't convert them is because well, a) it's too much hassle, and b) I do feel there are things that would not be sufficient for them on Ubuntu. Webcam, Wi-Fi support and the way things like repositories are added springs to mind... as does gaming ._.

None of those bother me too much though personally :)

i am using wi-fi except the problem with ubuntu or any system is that they have to tap in from the existing users ie windows or mac but you can also convert them if they find advantage in it for them. it is a little hassle that some of the program people are used to are propriety and that will make them little hesitant to move to new operating system.

[Viva]

You could argue linux is as successful as any other OS in general, it is a major player in the server and embedded devices market, but hasn't made the same effect on the desktop market yet. Desktop market is quite different to the server marker because there is already an existing evil monopoly here, so it will take a long time for linux to gain a decent marker share. All in all, desktop market is a very small portion of computing and the impact linux had in the other markets and the fact that linux is the major player in a multi-trillion dollar industry speaks for itself.

[Ric_NYC]

xorg
khtml
ati fglrx drivers
pulseaudio
xorg
grub2
nvidia drivers being cli install only
kde4 and wifi </3
& xorg Z_Z

I agree with you.
Let's stop blaming the users only.

[hoppipolla]

What is holding back Linux in general is the "it can't be any good because it is free" attitude.
That, and the FUD peeps read about just how "difficult and geeky" the system IS. (yea, it WAS, but not now .. takes a long time for that stigma to wear off!)

For granny surfing the web and doing eMail and eBay and not much more, it is almost ideal. (with the exception that auction template software does not work in Linux .. so that will kill off some potential users in the geriatric area)


I dunno I think Ubuntu still can be more difficult than Windows. Sometimes. Like when installing some new software often adding a repository in Synaptic is needed (I had to do this for Wakoopa for example) and also having to use Synaptic at all is a little tricky. And of course, drivers aren't always available but that's a support issue.

For a large part of the time I do genuinely find Ubuntu easier to use than Windows though, particularly for day-to-day software installations and maintenance.

[steveneddy]

Do you think that the drivers for Linux/Ubuntu would get better if we paid for Ubuntu and some of that money was diverted to hardware mfr's to develop good, working drivers for the hardware in Linux.

Would you pay for Ubuntu and the drivers worked well and finally everything worked, including integrated web cams, but most of the hardware drivers were only offered in binary form (closed sourced), not open sourced?

[donato roque]

If you're talking about usage/market share, that is a function of marketing. Linux marketing is like faith. It's there but you can't really see it. :)

If you're talking about THE PRODUCT, Linux has come a long long way. Ubuntu, specifically, and hardware support in particular, has improved considerably.

If you're a regular in this forum then you know that community support is a strong selling point. Focus on our strengths, DO THAT and nothing can hold us back.

[hoppipolla]

Do you think that the drivers for Linux/Ubuntu would get better if we paid for Ubuntu and some of that money was diverted to hardware mfr's to develop good, working drivers for the hardware in Linux.

Would you pay for Ubuntu and the drivers worked well and finally everything worked, including integrated web cams, but most of the hardware drivers were only offered in binary form (closed sourced), not open sourced?

I don't know if money would make a huge difference... isn't it down to just proving to them that Linux/Ubuntu is a platform WORTH making drivers for based on market share? :)

[steveneddy]

I don't know if money would make a huge difference... isn't it down to just proving to them that Linux/Ubuntu is a platform WORTH making drivers for based on market share? :)

I couldn't agree with you more.

But in the private sector when we needed software or some sort of application for our Unix server software we would hire someone to design and build it for us to our specifications.

The same scenario will work when designing driver for the community for various hardware platforms. If we paid for Ubuntu, and the money was moved to the development community, do you think that the adoption of Ubuntu/Linux would accelerate?

[Chame_Wizard]

The illiteracy people,FUDs,misconceptions and many (games)compannies.:lolflag:

Irony:a lot of things are running on Linux/BSD(including the NYSE,Youtube and online games servers),but people aren't aware of it.:(

[ReddogOne]

I'll going to go a different tack to most of the other posts in that I believe some of the holding back is by the community itself when it comes to commercial uses of ubunutu.

I think a leap could be made if a more focus was on how commercial companies could be encouraged to use ubunutu desktop. After all its the fact that linux is the 'best' way to host commercial websites that means that it is so popular.

Things like:


Real effort to make iTunes work on Linux using wine (Biggest showstopper when I try to convert people)
[Or alternatively to the above] Real effort to integrate buying of amazon (or other chosen distributer) content into media applications
Real effort in providing secure, easy to use frameworks so content owners can 'rent' content in a secure and easy to use way
Stop moaning that the up and coming application store is called a store. Make it easy for commercial companies to sell applications, features and the like
Get things like MythTV so good. Basic functionality so that people like the BBC say buy a set top box or if you have a PC try MythTV... it just works.


The thing is, for us all to have a really good 'free' (in every sense) OS will be faster if commercial companies are encouraged to contribute to the underlying system so that there stuff is the best it can be. And the best way to do that is if they can make money from it.

(I'm not going to hide, please don't beat me too much)

[haemulon]

1. The complicated and dodgy GNU license.

2. The negative attitude toward commercial and proprietary software is just really bad and dumb.

3. Having hundreds of distros is counterproductive.

4. The difficulty in installing software that is not on someone's repository.

For all the talk in Linux about community and such, there's very little in way of any community standards.

No standard way to install software, no standard desktop, no standard packages for programmers that are available on all distros, etc.

Programs have to be tailored to specific distributions, and worse even specific versions of those distributions.

Linux will remain a marginal OS at best, to be used mainly for internet infrastructure, non-profits, educational institutions, and maybe some govt agencies.

[Chame_Wizard]

@haemulon:don't forget the most important things:web/mail/p2p/ftp servers,stock exchanges(NYSE and London soon)and supercomputers etc etc.

The NSA(National Security Agency)is developer of SELinux FYI.

:lolflag:

[ChrT]

GNU/Linux in general is being held back by the mad obsession by some parts of the community to bring it to the desktop and make it availible to the average computer user, whatever it takes.

It's a perfectly fine server OS that can be made into a desktop OS. The large majority of modern GNU/Linux software distributions are trying to turn it into a desktop OS that can also be used as a server OS...kind of.

The desktop has always been a secondary goal at best in the GNU/Linux community. It's silly to target it just because it has the largest computer user share. GNU/Linux will not appeal to the average computer user, and that's a fact. The focus should remain on producing a safe and reliable server environment, that can still be used efficiently on a desktop if the user has the knowledge and will to turn it into a workstation.

A related problem that Ubuntu started is the trend of configuring the large majority of everything for the user, without ever showing him any of the config files, during the install. The user should be able to configure his stuff (modules, daemons, hosts, xorg.conf, etc) during the install, and not spend another couple of hours afterwards undoing the idiotic default choices. I want my install to be mine, not some mindless script that knows nothing about my preferences and doesn't even bother to ask me.

On an unrelated note, the six month feature freeze on Ubuntu (and even longer freezes on some other distros) is hurting the development of new Free Software, since the large majority of users will not integrate it into their install until it is released into the official repos. A rolling release system without solid release points benefits both the distro developers, and the upstream developers who don't have to wait 6 months for their software to be included in an official release.

[Exodist]

Number of things,
- No TV advertisement. Which would break anyones poket book, so I dont expect to see this.
- Needs more compatibility bugs fixed, mostly in the notebook department.
- Lack of commercial MMO games and other commercial software many windows users have became accustomed to.


Of course those are for all GNU/Linux..

[MC707]

- Needs more compatibility bugs fixed, mostly in the notebook department.
I simply could not agree more. This is definitely a killer (both ubuntu killer and my time killer :().

- Lack of commercial MMO games and other commercial software many windows users have became accustomed to.
Also agreed. Many, many people have problems despite having WINE, which in many cases simply can't emulate well (at least in my case no game has worked [acceptably] with the sole exception of Unreal Gold)