Do you want Linux to attract new users?

[blur xc]

I'm relatively new to linux and I read lots of negative posts in regards to any comment that Cannonical is/should improve some part of the gui. Most recently, the whole Add/Remove Programs, Synaptic, Update Manager merge, but it comes up every friggin' time someone suggests making the gui prettier, or more intuitive.

What prompted my post is this article- http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm which was posted in a reply to another similar thread.

A few excerpts:
And so we come to the biggest problem of all when it comes to new users and Linux: They find out they're not wanted.
Linux is not interested in market share. Linux does not have customers. Linux does not have shareholders, or a responsibility to the bottom line. Linux was not created to make money. Linux does not have the goal of being the most popular and widespread OS on the planet.The Linux community isn't trying to take over the desktop. They really don't care if it gets good enough to make it onto your desktop, so long as it stays good enough to remain on theirs.BM

edit: I would have posted in Recurring Discussions, as this thread will probably be there in the next 0.2 seconds, but it appears as though I can't...

[Greg]

I could care less. Unless I'm using that computer, it doesn't matter to me what it runs. Don't get me wrong, I love having conversations with other Linux users, and I've converted a few people, but it's been mainly by accident and being opinionated. I don't see why we need more people.

[andras artois]

Yes it should attract new users but not by looking like windows. It should attract them with it's nifty features, ease of use, nice looks etc.

In my opinion once Ubuntu/linux in general gets a little more commercial backing it'll be well on it's way to being acceptable by the average home user.

[blur xc]

I could care less. Unless I'm using that computer, it doesn't matter to me what it runs. Don't get me wrong, I love having conversations with other Linux users, and I've converted a few people, but it's been mainly by accident and being opinionated. I don't see why we need more people.

Isn't it paradoxical or ironic that you, at one time were a new user to linux, yet you don't see the need to attract new users?

If linux didn't attract new users, where would it be? It'd hardly exist. You would have the handful of people who wrote it, and that's all you'd have. What apps would you have available for it? How usable would it be in day to day life? Or, are you stating that it's already attracted enough users to be healthy and stable in today's world of computer users, and just doesn't need anymore?

BM

[Greg]

Isn't it paradoxical or ironic that you, at one time were a new user to linux, yet you don't see the need to attract new users?

If linux didn't attract new users, where would it be? It'd hardly exist. You would have the handful of people who wrote it, and that's all you'd have. What apps would you have available for it? How usable would it be in day to day life? Or, are you stating that it's already attracted enough users to be healthy and stable in today's world of computer users, and just doesn't need anymore?

BM

No, it's not paradoxical. If new users want to come, that's great. If they don't, I can live with that. The Linux community will grow or it wont, but it'll be here.

[red_Marvin]

Third party support is proportional to user base, and because of this more users are welcome.
However user friendly is not the same thing as newbie friendly.
It is the kind of user that thinks that if he or she is not able to understand linux within the first ten boots, the devs are doing something wrong, or even worse if they feel that they can demand this to be "fixed"* - that we do not need more of.
I am more than glad to help somebody out if I can expect them to read a link if I send it to them, including answering questions on parts they do not understand, instead of pulling a tl;dr -> linux is too difficult.


* Often with a reason sounding like "if ever to be sucessfully adopted by the main populace"

[RabbitWho]

I want everyone to know they have a choice and to understand the choice. I would love if everyone was familiar with Linux Windows and Mac* so they could make a choice.

Selling something to someone is stealing if they don't have all the information. And trusting people go into computer shops and get stolen from every day.

People don't have to come over to Linux if they don't want to.. but they should know they have a choice.. I know one person who knows what an operating system is.


*uch

[JDShu]

The more linux users there are, the more benefits to linux users. From a purely selfish standpoint, you should always want more linux users.

[Exodist]

I didnt vote.
I have a YES and NO answer.

Yes I would like to see more smart people using linux.

No I dont want any more techtards using it.

[starcannon]

Yes; and for selfish reasons; when a large enough desktop market share is garnered, then I hope to see more commercial apps become available.

[Ric_NYC]

More users.... more software, more hardware support etc.

Welcome new users!


YES... YES... YES...

[jrusso2]

As a very long time user, I have given up on the idea of Linux being a mainstream desktop years ago.

Its better off being where it is now for hobbyists.

[earthpigg]

i voted yes, but i will elaborate:

i couldn't care less if twenty-something or older people start using. as others said, them becoming linux users will neither hurt nor help me. i will still check linux compatibility prior to hardware purchases, and as long as Linux runs on 80% of the worlds supercomputers, there will always be top of the line stuff that works with linux.


what i do care about is children:

Teach them to use computers, not Microsoft products.

Microsoft can even be on some of those computers, but not all of them for their entire education.

teach them to be at home in any WIMP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WIMP_%28computing%29) environment.

put Ubuntu in the library, BSD in the programming lab, and fine put Microsoft or Apple in the typing lab. shuffle those around however you want, it really doesn't matter.

the vital thing is exposure so they can become well informed adults capable of making their own decisions.

[cmay]

I would off course welcome as many new users as possible. It will give the linux community more benefits if there is more users.

But not by being trying to look like windows or mac. Just by being an alternative to these systems. I think its very important to remember that It is not by trying to please those who wants linux to become a free clone of windows that linux has grown this big.
For that there is reactOS. they have been there for many years now But despite being a free windows clone they did not even release a stabel yet.,

As long as people wants to use linux for what linux is I would say welcome there is always room for one more.

[RabbitWho]

i voted yes, but i will elaborate:

i couldn't care less if twenty-something or older people start using. as others said, them becoming linux users will neither hurt nor help me. i will still check linux compatibility prior to hardware purchases, and as long as Linux runs on 80% of the worlds supercomputers, there will always be top of the line stuff that works with linux.


what i do care about is children:

Teach them to use computers, not Microsoft products.

Microsoft can even be on some of those computers, but not all of them for their entire education.

teach them to be at home in any WIMP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WIMP_%28computing%29) environment.

put Ubuntu in the library, BSD in the programming lab, and fine put Microsoft or Apple in the typing lab. shuffle those around however you want, it really doesn't matter.

the vital thing is exposure so they can become well informed adults capable of making their own decisions.


Why care about children and not adults? Adults are just old children.

[Screwdriver0815]

to me it doesn't any matter if new users come over or not.

I changed to Linux because I wanted to. Thats it.

as long as there are people who want to develop Linux, there will always be progress and hardware support. I don't need new users in the shape of ex-windows users who complain about stuff they don't understand to fix problems which do not exist.

hardware support? I always buy stuff according to hardware compatibility lists.

And as long as my hardware works, I couldn't care less.

[chriskin]

adults are considered less open to new ideas and children can learn new thing very easily.

if children today were to even get to Know that linux exists and have it shown to them once or twice, linux would become twice as popular when they hit high school and are able to choose some things for themselves.

[infestor]

i couldnt care less. i want people to drown in proprietary software problems. it is not a fault not to know but it is a fault not to learn. but propaganda? hmmmm

[wojox]

Yes, it keeps me busy.

[aysiu]

OneandOneis2 is trying to generalize about the Linux community:
The Linux community isn't trying to take over the desktop. They really don't care if it gets good enough to make it onto your desktop, so long as it stays good enough to remain on theirs. The truth, though, is that there isn't one Linux community--there are many Linux communities. Some communities care about market share. Others don't. Ubuntu is designed from the top down to be about market share. See Bug #1 for more details (https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/1): Also affects project Also affects distribution Nominate for release

Microsoft has a majority market share in the new desktop PC marketplace.
This is a bug, which Ubuntu is designed to fix.

Non-free software is holding back innovation in the IT industry, restricting access to IT to a small part of the world's population and limiting the ability of software developers to reach their full potential, globally. This bug is widely evident in the PC industry. I blogged about this last year in an entry called "The Linux community's mixed messages" (http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntucat/the-linux-communitys-mixed-messages/) (I guess, for clarity's sake, I probably should have called it "The Linux communities' mixed messages"): Do you care about marketshare or not?
A lot of Linux users claim not to care if Linux gets more users on desktops and laptops. Of course, these same users celebrate every time they find out more schools and governments have switched to Linux, or every time they see a Linux computer in a TV or movie, or every time Linux is given a good review in a relatively mainstream publication.

Do you care or not? If you don’t care about marketshare, then really don’t care. Don’t say you don’t care.

[RiceMonster]

No, it's not paradoxical. If new users want to come, that's great. If they don't, I can live with that. The Linux community will grow or it wont, but it'll be here.

/thread

[RabbitWho]

adults are considered less open to new ideas and children can learn new thing very easily.

if children today were to even get to Know that linux exists and have it shown to them once or twice, linux would become twice as popular when they hit high school and are able to choose some things for themselves.

A lot of adults can learn things fast . . . And adults are motivated and they care. . . Yeah kids are great but I don't see how you can just write off the whole rest of the world and say you don't care what they do.
Yeah we need better computer education for kids, but adults too.

[Old_Gray_Wolf]

A general comment on this thread:

Linux is used quite extensively in the enterprise computer environment. This question and discussion should include references to want environment, enterprise or desktop, the comments are refering.

i couldn't care less if twenty-something or older people start using. as others said, them becoming linux users will neither hurt nor help me.

Who do you think have the job positions to influence if a company deploys Linux or Open Source Software (OSS) to their company desktop computers. People less than 20 years old? Hehe, I think not.

I work for a big company. If I suggest OSS, the first thing I am asked is whether the OSS has support and how much does it cost. If my answer is that it costs nothing, then the suggestion is usually rejected. Companies threat support contracts like insurance. Most of the time the support is never used. Right now, desktop Linux is not being deployed in companies on a widespread basis, however it is growing. Company paid support contracts increase the motivation to provide hardware compatibility and more applications. Think about RedHat, Canonical, and Sun. They offer paid commercial support contracts for OSS products.

60% of the engineers I manage use Linux exclusivity. A year ago it was 30%. Indirectly, this actually does help you.

Oh, check my profile. 61 year old Engineering Manager.:lolflag:

[earthpigg]

A lot of adults can learn things fast . . . And adults are motivated and they care. . . Yeah kids are great but I don't see how you can just write off the whole rest of the world and say you don't care what they do.
Yeah we need better computer education for kids, but adults too.

adults can make their own decisions and speak for themselves and choose what institutions to be a part of, and which not to be a part of.

10 year olds are usually thrown into whatever public school their zip code puts them in.

i am more concerned with what a 10 year old is forced be a part & gain exposure to than with what an adult chooses to do.



say what you want about rms, but i agree with him when he said something to the affect that teaching children to use proprietary software is like teaching them to smoke

(with the caveat that, of course, using proprietary will not give you cancer. it may make you smell, get grey hair sooner, make you feel addicted, be a monkey on your back for life, and drain your pay check....)

sure, anyone can quit smoking whenever they want... why not give cigs to 12 year olds? it will make their school work easier, because it will relax them.

....

......o, right. wait.

[chriskin]

A lot of adults can learn things fast . . . And adults are motivated and they care. . . Yeah kids are great but I don't see how you can just write off the whole rest of the world and say you don't care what they do.
Yeah we need better computer education for kids, but adults too.

i believe the last part.
Everyone should get as good a computer education as possible

but we have to agree that many adult don't even have the time to spend on computers, or the willingness to do so anyway

[Irihapeti]

I see two slightly different issues here.

One is: do we want to go to a lot of effort to attract new users by "selling" to them.

The other is: do we treat new users respectfully when they turn up, whatever the reason for that?

We can do the second one whether or not we do the first. If we do, I think we contribute to the first one anyway. Ubuntuforums' membeers seem to do a pretty good job of it on the whole.

And, in case anyone is wondering, I do not mean we should put up with rubbish from new users who are in a bad mood.

[pastalavista]

I didn't vote because it doesn't concern me. I mean, I do care (for vain, egotistical reasons more than anything else I want people to agree with me. I would enjoy being a trendsetter, I suppose, but it's not that big a deal) and hope Linux distros catch on like wildfire, but I don't hold my breath.

Like it or not, Windows is the standard of the industry by means of their use of simple hard-core marketing techniques. Windows embraces the capitalist ideals supported by patent and copyright laws and the concepts of "intellectual propery", which are, by their nature, constantly changing and evolving.

GNU/Linux, on the other hand, is "open source" and not conducive to proprietary application as it would add no real market value to the commodity. It's value lies in it's flexibility as evidenced by the insane number of distributions that are available.

When the great uninformed public finally learns that Microsoft and Apple have been overcharging for years for what amounts to a proprietary secret code to simply run a machine, and that they could actually have been informed as to what they were making their machines do, Linux will become the OS of the masses and the commercial OS's will be relegated to the "pampered elite" who have employees do their work for them.

Also, when Linux does reach mainstream dominance, look out for a lot more Linux hacks and viruses.

[tsali]

It is the attempts to solve Bug#1 that have made Ubuntu as GOOD as it is for CONSUMER USERS.

As previoulsy mentioned a larger user base increases the liklihood of better develop support and better hardware support.

[khelben1979]

I want Linux to be an attractive system for new users and I have also been impressed by what has happened as years has passed. Linux is a much more attractive operating system today than it was 10 years ago.

[sydbat]

A lot of adults can learn things fast . . . And adults are motivated and they care. . . Yeah kids are great but I don't see how you can just write off the whole rest of the world and say you don't care what they do.
Yeah we need better computer education for kids, but adults too.

adults can make their own decisions and speak for themselves and choose what institutions to be a part of, and which not to be a part of.

10 year olds are usually thrown into whatever public school their zip code puts them in.

i am more concerned with what a 10 year old is forced be a part & gain exposure to than with what an adult chooses to do.



say what you want about rms, but i agree with him when he said something to the affect that teaching children to use proprietary software is like teaching them to smoke

(with the caveat that, of course, using proprietary will not give you cancer. it may make you smell, get grey hair sooner, make you feel addicted, be a monkey on your back for life, and drain your pay check....)

sure, anyone can quit smoking whenever they want... why not give cigs to 12 year olds? it will make their school work easier, because it will relax them.

....

......o, right. wait.To expand a bit on earthpigg's comments - Adults tend to be 'set in their ways'. Most* have used something "forever" and are unwilling to learn something new. Just look at adults who look down on someone's choice of vehicle (the old Ford vs GM vs Chrysler debates as an example).

So, teaching children that there is more than Windows or OSX (for example) is much easier than changing an adults perspective on what their reality is.

Certainly, if the opportunity presents itself, respectfully explain what the merits are of using Open Source Software to people in positions of power...but, as Old_Gray_Wolf statesIf I suggest OSS, the first thing I am asked is whether the OSS has support and how much does it cost. If my answer is that it costs nothing, then the suggestion is usually rejected.This is what makes current widespread adoption of any Linux distro hard. By convincing school systems to include real choice of teaching tools for kids (that includes much more than IT related information), those kids will grow up to be better prepared for whatever is thrown at them in their adult life...and may even spark the "Linux revolution" that has been promised forever.

*I say 'most' because there a some that do learn throughout their lives and are flexible in their choices...however, I find them to be few and far between.

[Viva]

I want linux to attract more windows newbies and non-technical users. It is quite easy to convert them and they often find ubuntu easier to use. I'll think twice about windows power-users though. They bring a lot of trouble and are too proud to accept that their windows knowledge is sometimes useless on linux.

[subdivision]

Where's the "I don't care" option?

[earthpigg]

I'll think twice about windows power-users though. They bring a lot of trouble and are too proud to accept that their windows knowledge is sometimes useless on linux.

i was probably what some would consider a windows "power user", though i never liked that particular term.

i found the migration quite humbling - which, in my case, gave me a desire to learn more and more.

[aysiu]

i was probably what some would consider a windows "power user", though i never liked that particular term.

i found the migration quite humbling - which, in my case, gave me a desire to learn more and more. Well, for a lot of Windows power users, the humbling migration just leads them to abort the migration and return to Windows.

[mdsmedia]

Yes; and for selfish reasons; when a large enough desktop market share is garnered, then I hope to see more commercial apps become available.
+1...and more support from hardware manufacturers.