Microsoft (mis)educates Best Buy Employees about Linux

[Screwdriver0815]

Hi

I don't know if this was posted before, but maybe you would like to know of this:

http://www.overclock.net/windows/569458-microsoft-attack-linux-retail-level-probably.html

it is a report about a new "get the facts" campaign by Microsoft on the salers level, in the computer shops.

In my eyes it is quite funny and it has many similarities to the "get the facts" campaign for the servers. Maybe a Linux vendor should re-create a "truth happens" campaign again.

The Microsoft campaign shows also that Microsoft is scared that Windows 7 will not be a success. Because of Linux...

[TheLions]

screenshots faded!

didn't see a thing... :(

[Screwdriver0815]

hope fully this works...

[Screwdriver0815]

upps... they are a little bit big...

[pwnst*r]

nope, didn't work.

[-grubby]

Upgrade to pro today! I hate you photobucket!

[Screwdriver0815]

bandwith exceeded... okay, never mind.

anyway: it is similar to the "its better with windows" and "get the facts" campaigns. And it is done like a "learning course" for the sales people in the computer shops.

It is also like a question-answer game: for example: »"Linux is safe" --> wrong...« and then a statement that Win 7 is much more safe... and so on... like we all know it from the history

[-grubby]

I can see the pics. Whats wrong with my browser then? :confused: :D

They're probably cached.

[Screwdriver0815]

They're probably cached.

is there any possibility that they become visible again?

[Sealbhach]

I saw it on Reddit (http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9hnbg/best_buy_teaches_its_employees_about_linux/), I'm using Swiftweasel and trying to find my cache and see if they're in there.

.

[TheLions]

pictures here:

http://zip.4chan.org/g/res/5679814.html

[Paqman]

pictures here:

http://zip.4chan.org/g/res/5679814.html

4chan's really not a worksafe link, but thanks anyway!

[Sealbhach]

Here's a better link:

http://imgur.com/Q6kK0&NUdaD&irauT&NHAIH&v92vt

http://imgur.com/hkPcD&xzr6f&o3WU6&LY82T

There's five images in each.

.

[Mr. Picklesworth]

I love how they use World of Warcraft (http://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=version&iId=17421) as an example for "the games your customers want."
In some cases they make valid points (indeed, Windows Live Essentials is not built for Linux! ...and, indeed, Windows, with all its pops and crackles, has a warm, "familiar" feeling).

However, that blatantly incorrect example indicates that they definitely did no research here and therefore can not call these "facts." If they used, say, The Witcher or Mirror's Edge as examples, fine.

It's also somewhat entertaining that they try to elaborate on their earlier slide which tells about how Windows is more compatible with cameras and the like (using a progress bar, no less) by playing the number game (http://zip.4chan.org/g/src/1252182152443.jpg). Their math is wrong: the percentages are being calculated upside down. Somebody should probably tell them...

[Screwdriver0815]

thanks @Sealbhach for the pics recovery.

How was it as Vista was introduced? Was there a similar campaign? Or did they throw it on the market and didn't care about it?

[RabbitWho]

This is the number one tweeted Linux related topic.

It really pisses me off because it's not true. Isn't there a law about saying things that aren't true about your competitors?

[Exodist]

This is the number one tweeted Linux related topic.

It really pisses me off because it's not true. Isn't there a law about saying things that aren't true about your competitors?

Slander.

BUT.. They will not get into a law suite due to Linux not being owned by another build corp with the financial backing to go to court with M$.

Mark could if he wanted too and I am sure he would love to sue the hell out of M$. But it would cost way to much in court and end up just breaking him financially and in the end not change a thing.

Also, to be honest. Only f'n idiots actually listen to that crap. IMHO thats one less moron we need anyway. Windows users disgust me. They think they know all about computers because they can click NEXT NEXT NEXT on a stupid install program. The days where your average person appreciated a PC tech are long gone because of windows. IMHO /twitch!!

[lovinglinux]

Wow. This one and the other controversy about the 10.000 price treasure hunt using IE 8 really makes me sick. I have used Windows for 15 years and I wasn't against Microsoft, but now I really want to see Google OS crashing Microsoft sales.

Today I had to install Windows 7 again, because I'm developing a Windows version of my media center extension for Firefox. I hate it.

[benmoran]

People got all bent out of shape over the windows7sins campaign, but at least everything there was actually true. This microsoft campaign is just outright lies.

[chris200x9]

I'm about to go postal!!!!!!!!!!! Microsoft always does this! They use words like "EVER" it really irritates me. Go back to school learn the definition of ever!

[juancarlospaco]

uuuuuh, im taking revenge with The Gimp ATM, wait for reinforcements...

[juancarlospaco]

This is the real Version:

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/3923/beta01.jpg


http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/5319/beta02.jpg


:D

[Exodist]

@ Juan,, Very Nice. hehe

[juancarlospaco]

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/2994/beta03.jpg


http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/8215/beta04.jpg


:D

[scragar]

I love how microsoft shoves updates as being something linux doesn't do, who has ever heard of a linux distro that doesn't update? The only way it'd be hard to update is if you build it manually, and with all the tools around to manage source for you(svn, git..)there's 0 reason why a bash script can't make updating the source and installed version pretty easy.
Either way it's a hell of a lot easier than windows.

Windows:
First I download windows updates, then I update firefox, then VLC, then nero.....

Linux:
All updates are installed every morning when I boot, and if there's any warning output I get a pop-up telling me about it until I've read and closed it. That way I am able to fix any problems that might occur before they become a real problem.

[lovinglinux]

:lolflag:

@juancarlospaco

The last two pics are awesome. Good job.

[Firestem4]

I love how microsoft shoves updates as being something linux doesn't do, who has ever heard of a linux distro that doesn't update? The only way it'd be hard to update is if you build it manually, and with all the tools around to manage source for you(svn, git..)there's 0 reason why a bash script can't make updating the source and installed version pretty easy.
Either way it's a hell of a lot easier than windows.

I don't know why, but that windows Fact or Myth about linux upgrades pissed me off.

Linux uppgrades are easy MYTH....](*,)


The other one that pissed me off is Linux is safer than Windows MYTH. There is absolutely NO guarantee a bug found in windows will be fixed. And we've seen this for years. I wonder what OS is actually more up to date against their own standards?

[scragar]

I don't know why, but that windows Fact or Myth about linux upgrades pissed me off.

Linux uppgrades are easy MYTH....](*,)


The other one that pissed me off is Linux is safer than Windows MYTH. There is absolutely NO guarantee a bug found in windows will be fixed. And we've seen this for years. I wonder what OS is actually more up to date against their own standards?

We still haven't fixed the #1 bug for linux to date. (https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1)

But in general I think windows claims that security through obscurity actually works(After all, if no-one knows how something works they can't find a security flaw in it, right?), which open source claims that finding bugs and then fixing them is the better security system(I know, what kind of illogical approach is that?).
How secure they are in comparison would be very hard to judge, although I personally believe the linux approach is best I doubt anyone could prove it either way.

[Firestem4]

We still haven't fixed the #1 bug for linux to date. (https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1)

But in general I think windows claims that security through obscurity actually works(After all, if no-one knows how something works they can't find a security flaw in it, right?), which open source claims that finding bugs and then fixing them is the better security system(I know, what kind of illogical approach is that?).
How secure they are in comparison would be very hard to judge, although I personally believe the linux approach is best I doubt anyone could prove it either way.

I didn't mean Secure, however specifically the amount of known vulnerabilities/bugs or etc that are left unfixed for a very long time. Linux has plenty, but so does windows. The biggest difference though is Windows does not publicize anything that can have a negative impact on their OS and reputation. (For example, security bugs that are left unpatched in IE6 for 2 years straight....)

[madjr]

msft suck real bad right now

[mango42]

Apologies for mentioning the unmentionable OS here but it does seem like Microsoft is getting the wind up about Linux.

Can't imagine why, can you? It's the old old problem of 'without experiencing anything else, how can one choose an alternative to what one knows?'

http://quaoar.ww7.be/ms_fud_of_the_year/569458-microsoft-attack-linux-retail-level-probably.html gives an insight into M$'s new campaign to sell you Windows whilst playing down Linux's FREE house!

Machines I have struggled with to get Ubuntu working in dual boot mode have mainly had an issue with Windows MBR and from my experience, the alternative Ubuntu install can always (so far, dunno about Win7) clear up any problems even if it does require more than one attempt at repartitioning.

Is there any energy left over from the incredible work the Linux community puts into each release to make it clear to windoze users that they are stuck in a high-stress OS that they had to pay through the nose for, not doing what they want it to do without loads of hassle, copyright, DRM and driver issues et al?

Bottom line: How do you tell Windoze users they're running a rotten system that clogs up every few months and gets in their face everytime they boot up? How do you tell them they are running a system that is increasingly 'enclosing' minds and deciding for users what they can and cannot do with their machines?

Now in my 4th year of Ubuntu, having to use windoze at all is like jumping from a well maintained limosine into a poorly serviced wreck-waiting-to-happen. Perhaps I am biased. ;-)

[3rdalbum]

Yeah, look for the "Compatible with Windows 7" logo!

...I've never seen it. I guess I'll have to buy completely new hardware when 7 comes out. Retailers will find it impossible to sell their existing stock that's not marked with the logo because people will think it's not Windows 7 compatible.

[MarcusW]

The Linux update myth made me really pissed. =/

[MasterProg]

I don't really care about what Microsoft says. The only thing this means is that they consider Linux a competitor even on desktops.

[DeMus]

I don't really care about what Microsoft says. The only thing this means is that they consider Linux a competitor even on desktops.

That and the fact they build XP into it makes them not very confident for the future of 7.

[Screwdriver0815]

Slander.

BUT.. They will not get into a law suite due to Linux not being owned by another build corp with the financial backing to go to court with M$.

Mark could if he wanted too and I am sure he would love to sue the hell out of M$. But it would cost way to much in court and end up just breaking him financially and in the end not change a thing.

Also, to be honest. Only f'n idiots actually listen to that crap. IMHO thats one less moron we need anyway. Windows users disgust me. They think they know all about computers because they can click NEXT NEXT NEXT on a stupid install program. The days where your average person appreciated a PC tech are long gone because of windows. IMHO /twitch!!

I too think, that a lawsuit isn't the right way. Doing it like juancarlospaco did it, with the pictures - this is nice and funny.

There was this first "get the facts" campaign and right after it, Red Hat has done their "Truth Happens" campaign. Maybe something like that could be an answer again?

I mean, there is this statement by Mohandas Gandhi in the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtdnZNYN0MM

"first they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win"

so now we are in the "they fight you" stage for the desktop market... the next step is... win. :D

[Exodist]

I think, a lawsuit isn't the right way.....

Hence I said "it would change nothing" :-)

But yea I agree with you. M$ is doing a great job of killing their self out with Vista and now W7.. muhahaha... :-p

[stinger30au]

i heard that microsoft were doing some kind of smear campain. cool. linux must be doing something right if microsoft is doing childish things like this.

the reality is that there is so many people on the planet who just dont know that linux exists

i suggest you write a letter to your local news paper to the letters to the editor section and tell them how great ubuntu is and that there is alternatives to microsoft products for free to anyone on the planet

[Screwdriver0815]

Hence I said "it would change nothing" :-)

But yea I agree with you. M$ is doing a great job of killing their self out with Vista and now W7.. muhahaha... :-p

fixed! :D I forgot the "too" ;)

[Bartender]

there is alternatives to microsoft products for free to anyone on the planet

Except for the people on dial-up

[noelvh]

Very funny!!! I love the way they start with the people supporting M$, and not the end users. I read down the link as saw the last guy on the 1st page say the updates are hard for Linux. I am sorry I have yet to see that. One of the best things about Ubuntu is the updater. Hell not only dose it up date the OS it updates all software installed from the repos. Let see M$ do that. Well they will do that, and it just Fed up my computer when it updated my WiFi drivers. Took me 2 hours to get it working after that. I am sold on Ubuntu, and I am proud to say so!!! I need a Ubuntu in side sticker for my car.

With this said I am a support tech for a drug company, and work all day with windows, so I have a very good understanding of it. That is what made me go to Linux at home.

Noel
:)

[Invincible23]

Except for the people on dial-up
In my dail-up days, many years ago, i used linux exclusively. no windows, not even windows 3.1

BTW ubuntu mails a ubutu linux cd to anybody who asks for it on their site, free of cost. I dont see how dialup is holding back adoption of linux.

[presence1960]

Is there any energy left over from the incredible work the Linux community puts into each release to make it clear to windoze users that they are stuck in a high-stress OS that they had to pay through the nose for, not doing what they want it to do without loads of hassle, copyright, DRM and driver issues et al?

Bottom line: How do you tell Windoze users they're running a rotten system that clogs up every few months and gets in their face everytime they boot up? How do you tell them they are running a system that is increasingly 'enclosing' minds and deciding for users what they can and cannot do with their machines?

Now in my 4th year of Ubuntu, having to use windoze at all is like jumping from a well maintained limosine into a poorly serviced wreck-waiting-to-happen. Perhaps I am biased. ;-)
Linux exists solely for those who choose to use it. Most distros are not a business venture in the pure sense of that term. As such it does not matter how many people use Linux.

It is not our role to convince windows users that their OS of choice is faulty, not as good as linux or whatever the case may be.

The more sound approach to take is to be "a normal person" to windows users and not preach to them. Remember not many people like evangelists or reformers - especially when they "preach" without being asked.

I am a Linux user. I currently run Ubuntu 9.04, Sabayon 4.1 & just installed CrunchBang just so I could see it. I only tell people about Linux when our conversation presents the opportunity. I really could not care less about if even one more person decides to use Linux. that is a personal matter for each one to decide. I respect others right to make choices. if they choose to use windows I refuse to preach or try to convince them of the merits of Linux over Windows. Just as I choose to use Linux and I cherish my freedom to choose the OS I want to use, I have to give others the same respect.

I would say lighten up and realize it is not your responsibility to propogate the spread of the use of Linux. You will wilt under that pressure and probably ruin a few good relationships in the process by being labeled a zealot.

If you like Linux- just use it. Those who are curious will ask you about it!

[lswb]

If you do convert any of those "Windoze" users, are you prepared to support them when they have problems with video playback, sound, networking, etc? Most users just want to get things done, they don't care about FOSS issues and they don't want to have to fix things.

[sigurnjak]

Did anyone see this yet ?

http://quaoar.ww7.be/ms_fud_of_the_year/569458-microsoft-attack-linux-retail-level-probably.html

My favourite is slide 11 ! :confused::D

[coldReactive]

Yeah, saw this. Utter BS.

[presence1960]

If you do convert any of those "Windoze" users, are you prepared to support them when they have problems with video playback, sound, networking, etc? Most users just want to get things done, they don't care about FOSS issues and they don't want to have to fix things.

+1

If you want to convert all those windows users be prepared to give support since you did the converting.

In reality it is best to let those who want to use linux use it, and leave the rest where they are. Someone "convinced" against their will through evangelism or pressure is not really bought into the idea and at the first sign of trouble will abandon ship and be prejudiced against linux had it not been for such "foolish" measures to get people to use linux. Linux is there for those who "want" to use it. Let them decide with no pressure.

P.S. who appointed any of us to the VP of Marketing Operations for Linux?

[MikeTheC]

Heck, I'm taking a Microsoft Micro Computer Skills class in college.

What's the difference?

[dragos240]

Okay. MS is getting scared.

[foobic]

I seriously doubt that M$ cares about a few evangelists promoting their alternative OS. What this says to me is that they're feeling threatened by joe public being presented with a fair and equal choice in the stores.

And so they should be. If netbooks were sold side by side, one with a pre-installed, fully-sorted current linux version, the other with an identical spec running Windows for an extra $50(?) how many people would pay the extra?

[cptrohn]

If you do convert any of those "Windoze" users, are you prepared to support them when they have problems with video playback, sound, networking, etc? Most users just want to get things done, they don't care about FOSS issues and they don't want to have to fix things.

Then why would they use windows if they don't want to fix things?

[Miyavix3]

Well, I'm sure that M$ is trying their best in converting all the uneducated Linux users. Which is a very small number of people.

[BigSilly]

Okay. MS is getting scared.


I seriously doubt that M$ cares about a few evangelists promoting their alternative OS. What this says to me is that they're feeling threatened by joe public being presented with a fair and equal choice in the stores.

Yes, that's pretty much how it looks to me too. The pressure is definitely on now for them, and this is visible proof. Obviously they wouldn't need to do this if people weren't actively seeking out and becoming comfortable with the alternatives to Windows.

And that's all I want at the end of the day. A fairer marketplace for the user. The ad's are a bit desperate too. Fair enough, don't expect Windows programs to work on Linux, because they won't. And don't mention for a moment there are actually alternatives to Microsoft applications out there....

[Icehuck]

I love how there were a few cries of FUD from Microsoft when they were right on a few points.



New Ipods and the Iphone will not work with Linux correctly. (new firmware changed how the database functions). So that's not FUD like the article claims.

Lexmark and Canon don't play nice with Linux. So saying fewer printers work with Linux is true.

Video chat with Linux has never been great across all major IM networks.

[BigSilly]

I love how there were a few cries of FUD from Microsoft when they were right on a few points.



New Ipods and the Iphone will not work with Linux correctly. (new firmware changed how the database functions). So that's not FUD like the article claims.

Lexmark and Canon don't play nice with Linux. So saying fewer printers work with Linux is true.

Video chat with Linux has never been great across all major IM networks.

It'd be nice to see these compatibility issues improve with a better share of the market though wouldn't it? I don't mean to simplify things, but many of the problems MS list come from the age old fact of the MS monopoly. Of course it's more compatible, it's all there's been, and the consumer has had little other option. It's a self fulfilling prophecy.

It'd be nice to see big companies too like Apple halting their "Linux lockout" programs, in an effort to make Linux "unworkable" to the average computer user. They've been very keen to actively lock out Linux from iPods etc, and even the Apple Trailers website won't work if you use Linux. I'd like to see that corporate attitude change.

[Giant Speck]

Wait... Microsoft doesn't like Linux?

SHOCKER!

[themusicalduck]

I don't really preach linux. However, two people have used my computer and liked it so much they wanted linux themselves.

First person I installed it on sound didn't work in 8.10. Graphics didn't work in 9.04 and sound was still dodgy. Couldn't fix it, so had to give up on that.

Second person, I put Xubuntu on their 256mb ram laptop. It ran terribly :/ I put LXDE on instead and all seems alright so far. But I'm still waiting to hear something like "the sounds gone" or "wireless has stopped working"

I was so glad people actually wanted to try it too, but it's been a lot of effort.. At least if something goes wrong on my PC I can fix it 99% of the time, but my friends need me if something goes, and I'm not really gonna be around to help them out.

Anyway this is slightly (actually very) off topic. But I was reminded of it by this because I actually managed to sympathise with almost every point on those slides (even if some were over exaggerated.)

[lovinglinux]

This thread could be merged with http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1258888

I smell a new mega-thread coming soon :)

[aysiu]

This is very clever of Microsoft. I do have to give them credit for this campaign's implementation.

Apart from the blatant lies about updates being difficult to install in Linux (believe me, they are far more likely to fail to install in Windows) and about Windows being more secure, almost all of what they say is factually true... just entirely misleading.

Cite a correct fact, lead to a false conclusion. Very clever.

For example, the thing about peripherals support and video IM clients. Yes, more third-party peripherals and IM clients support Windows. This is absolutely true. So what? If the peripherals you have support Linux, then you're good.

I have an Android phone. Do I know there are more iPhone apps than Android apps? Sure. Does it bum me out? No. I happen to like Google Voice. It's on Android. It's not on the iPhone.

Same thing here. It isn't about what has the most (well, not for everyone anyway). It's about what has what you want. I like Synaptic Package Manager. Does Windows have that? I like a live CD that also installs. Does Windows have that? I hate activation keys. Does Windows...? Oh, wait. It does.

This is a marketing campaign. It twists the truth. *Yawn*

If people want the truth, the truth is that you should always assess your needs and means, and then find what works best for you. It won't be the same for everyone.

[Sealbhach]

According to Slashdot (http://linux.slashdot.org/story/09/09/05/195219/Microsoft-Attacks-Linux-With-Retail-Training-Talking-Points):

This course is available to BestBuy employees and will make them eligible for a $10 copy of Windows 7 upon completion."

.

[Baneblade]

Is nobody else shocked at the fact that BestBuy not only condone this nonsense, but actually enforce this as a "training course" for their employees?!?!

They might as well take down all the "BestBuy" signs and replace them with "MS Buy".

Still... MS is begining to fear the fact that people actually have a choice (however small) when buying their computers these days. So there is a silver lining :)

[scragar]

Is nobody else shocked at the fact that BestBuy not only condone this nonsense, but actually enforce this as a "training course" for their employees?!?!

They might as well take down all the "BestBuy" signs and replace them with "MS Buy".

Still... MS is begining to fear the fact that people actually have a choice (however small) when buying their computers these days. So there is a silver lining :)

They want money, MS offers more profit, it's as simple as.

[twright]

The saddest thing is that whilst it might be mostly BS it looks like quite a well targeted marketing campaign

It addresses many of the points that (ignorant) consumers will worry about, exaggerating areas where there are issues (yes Ubuntu/Linux does not support video chat for MSN but then our demographic does not typically use MSN (because it sucks) ), re-brands mediocrity as comfortability and creates issues where there are none (updates) but consumers expect them to be.

Whilst this may be true, hopefully such sales tactics (which have been going on for ever) should not affect Ubuntu's core market, just that gained by people who just chose whatever comes as default (Microsoft's core market).

[Screwdriver0815]

let me rave a little bit... maybe Ubuntu (because it is mentioned in the campaign) could have advantage from that...

if a Best Buy guy preaches Windows 7 in the way he has "learned" it in this "course" to a customer who just wants to buy a computer. And the customer has never heard of Linux...

customer: "how much is this thing here?" (points on a switched off Netbook)

sales guy: "its $249 and with Windows 7 it is $310"

customer: "why should I care if it is with windows 7?" (because he assumes that it is included)

sales guy: "because it is much better than Ubuntu for example, you have more choice.... " and then he repeats all the stuff he has "learned"

customer: "okay, I will think about all this"... driving home... thinking "what the hell is Ubuntu?"... searching the internet... thinking "why shouldn't I try it, its free... if it does not work, I'll take Windows 7"

potencial user created...

:D

[MarcusW]

let me rave a little bit... maybe Ubuntu (because it is mentioned in the campaign) could have advantage from that...

if a Best Buy guy preaches Windows 7 in the way he has "learned" it in this "course" to a customer who just wants to buy a computer. And the customer has never heard of Linux...

customer: "how much is this thing here?" (points on a switched off Netbook)

sales guy: "its $249 and with Windows 7 it is $310"

customer: "why should I care if it is with windows 7?" (because he assumes that it is included)

sales guy: "because it is much better than Ubuntu for example, you have more choice.... " and then he repeats all the stuff he has "learned"

customer: "okay, I will think about all this"... driving home... thinking "what the hell is Ubuntu?"... searching the internet... thinking "why shouldn't I try it, its free... if it does not work, I'll take Windows 7"

potencial user created...

:D

Assuming the one for 249$ would be without and operating system, the salesman would probably say something like "well without an OS your computer is practically useless, it's mainly for people who already have a windows disk at home". =/

[scragar]

Assuming the one for 249$ would be without and operating system, the salesman would probably say something like "well without an OS your computer is practically useless, it's mainly for people who already have a windows disk at home". =/

At which point the customer thinks "Hmn, I can get an illegal copy of windows for free, why would I pay for windows?"

[twright]

let me rave a little bit... maybe Ubuntu (because it is mentioned in the campaign) could have advantage from that...

if a Best Buy guy preaches Windows 7 in the way he has "learned" it in this "course" to a customer who just wants to buy a computer. And the customer has never heard of Linux...

customer: "how much is this thing here?" (points on a switched off Netbook)

sales guy: "its $249 and with Windows 7 it is $310"

customer: "why should I care if it is with windows 7?" (because he assumes that it is included)

sales guy: "because it is much better than Ubuntu for example, you have more choice.... " and then he repeats all the stuff he has "learned"

customer: "okay, I will think about all this"... driving home... thinking "what the hell is Ubuntu?"... searching the internet... thinking "why shouldn't I try it, its free... if it does not work, I'll take Windows 7"

potencial user created...

:D
I think that most users who have those sorts of mental discussions in their heads are not the problem.

[jrusso2]

I don't know what anyone is so excited about.
1. Best Buy does not sell Linux or have any computers with Linux and I live by best buy and check all the time.

2. I have never met anyone at best buy who even knows what Linux is.

[sydbat]

I don't know what anyone is so excited about.
1. Best Buy does not sell Linux or have any computers with Linux and I live by best buy and check all the time.

2. I have never met anyone at best buy who even knows what Linux is.+ Infinity...

[presence1960]

I don't know what anyone is so excited about.
1. Best Buy does not sell Linux or have any computers with Linux and I live by best buy and check all the time.

2. I have never met anyone at best buy who even knows what Linux is.

# 2 is incorrect. Best Buy for a while installed Linux and sold the Ubuntu Live CD for $20. The $20 was for support. 2 Best Buy Geek Squad employees live up my street and guess what they run at home? One runs Sabayon and the other Ubuntu!

[Tristam Green]

I don't know what anyone is so excited about.
1. Best Buy does not sell Linux or have any computers with Linux and I live by best buy and check all the time.

2. I have never met anyone at best buy who even knows what Linux is.

1.) Sorry, unless something's changed in the past couple of years, they sell the commercial version of SuSE. How do I know? I bought a copy at my local Best Buy.

2.) My brother-in-law worked at Best Buy - Geek Squad and regular computer sales. He actually ran Debian at home while I was running Ubuntu, and we swapped a lot of Linux tips with each other.


Best Buy employees would not say things like "well, with this OS, it'll cost this much, but with Windows, it costs more" simply because they don't sell computers sans OS in-store. You either have pre-installed Windows or Mac OSX. That's the price you pay, in so many words, when you deal with big-box stores.

[hockeytux]

I can get the photos through your Reddit link and it looks like a typical MS propaganda campaign...

My favourite is the one saying Linux is not safer than Windows :lolflag:

[presence1960]

I can get the photos through your Reddit link and it looks like a typical MS propaganda campaign...

My favourite is the one saying Linux is not safer than Windows :lolflag:

don't we have better things to do than worry about Microsoft?

[Frak]

don't we have better things to do than worry about Microsoft?
Pin the tail on the penguin? I've never seen anybody win at that.

[Paqman]

If netbooks were sold side by side, one with a pre-installed, fully-sorted current linux version, the other with an identical spec running Windows for an extra $50(?) how many people would pay the extra?

Most people would (and do) choose Windows. Most people would rather pay a bit extra for something that's familiar and that they know they can use straight away.

That sucks for both us and them (even though they don't know it) but you can't really blame them for it.

[Georgesl]

And so they should be. If netbooks were sold side by side, one with a pre-installed, fully-sorted current linux version, the other with an identical spec running Windows for an extra $50(?) how many people would pay the extra?

I wish that I could get a "fully sorted current Linux version" on a netbook. I bought a netbook and a small laptop from a Ubuntu-only company for prices that were no cheaper than I would have paid for M$-loaded computers. I figured that, buying from a Ubuntu-only company meant that the computers would be fully-sorted on Ubuntu. Both brand-new computers had driver issues right out of the box which rendered them unusable as portable devices. The company's tech support response here on the Ubuntu forums was basically "it will probably be fixed on the next update."

Sorry, but when a company is selling new computers they need to be completely functional and tested from the get-go. I gave this outfit two chances with two different computers but no joy. There may be netbooks that are fully functional on Ubuntu, but my urge to take another chance is gone.

I like Ubuntu, but have decided that it is better run on older hardware where you're not worrying about making bleeding-edge hardware work well. I dusted off an 8-year-old Dell desktop and it's running fine on 9.04.

I can see some truth to the assertion that M$ is worried about not making enough money on W7 netbook sales. For months they've been allowing manufacturers to load XP for nearly free to surpress Ubuntu on netbooks. Will M$ be willing to continue the free ride with W7 just to stop people from being exposed to alternatives?

The Linux community should see the attention as flattering. It will be fun to test out how well the Best Buy salesmen learned their lesson the next time I drop by! :)

The last time I was at Best Buy, they were running M$ tutorials on their display netbooks not to discourage Ubuntu, but to discourage customers from buying netbooks as primary computers. I guess they are also worried about their larger laptops losing market share when Aunt Sally finds out that a $250 netbook does everything she needs to do.

[murderslastcrow]

I don't think it would be in bad taste for local groups to put up flyers or hand out pamphlets explaining the benefits of using Linux, and what kinds of things are easy to switch over.

In fact, I think it would be environmentally and community conscious to do something like that. Then again, the Marketing team has a lot of stuff related to that already that we can just print off and put up.

Microsoft- the only way to lie is BIG. There is a threshold where, if the lie is big enough, it will hurt your reputation no matter how untrue it is. And Microsoft needs to admit that they've only got the niche software vendors on their side right now. Denial won't help anyone here.

[Ozor Mox]

There are two big things I take out of reading this:

1. All the people who say "Linux has less than 1% of the market, Microsoft don't even acknowledge its existence" are so very wrong. Microsoft consider Linux a serious competitor, perhaps even more so than OS X... (at least, I've not seen material like this against OS X)

2. Now who thinks Windows7Sins is a fanboyish website only for FSF fanatics? Any doubt I had about that site is gone. It's all fair game now, and I'm happy to encourage fighting back against this kind of Microsoft nonsense.

[Frak]

There are two big things I take out of reading this:

1. All the people who say "Linux has less than 1% of the market, Microsoft don't even acknowledge its existence" are so very wrong. Microsoft consider Linux a serious competitor, perhaps even more so than OS X... (at least, I've not seen material like this against OS X)

2. Now who thinks Windows7Sins is a fanboyish website only for FSF fanatics? Any doubt I had about that site is gone. It's all fair game now, and I'm happy to encourage fighting back against this kind of Microsoft nonsense.
1. Microsoft doesn't consider Apple as large of a threat anymore. Mac owners are very likely to install Windows anyways. I mean, really, OS X even comes with a utility to do everything for you.

2. Yes, because when somebody else is spreading rumours about you, it's perfectly fine to spread rumours about them too.

[Ozor Mox]

1. Microsoft doesn't consider Apple as large of a threat anymore. Mac owners are very likely to install Windows anyways. I mean, really, OS X even comes with a utility to do everything for you.

True. I would think Microsoft only have to threaten Apple with taking away their office suite for Apple to submit to any of their demands. I'm sure they've used this once before.

2. Yes, because when somebody else is spreading rumours about you, it's perfectly fine to spread rumours about them too.

Damn right.

According to Slashdot (http://linux.slashdot.org/story/09/09/05/195219/Microsoft-Attacks-Linux-With-Retail-Training-Talking-Points):

This course is available to BestBuy employees and will make them eligible for a $10 copy of Windows 7 upon completion."

.


If this is true then it is outrageously anti-competitive and anti-consumer! I hope they don't get away with this in the EU like I'm sure they would in the US.

[Sealbhach]

Sorry, but when a company is selling new computers they need to be completely functional and tested from the get-go. I gave this outfit two chances with two different computers but no joy. There may be netbooks that are fully functional on Ubuntu, but my urge to take another chance is gone.


You're absolutely right, it's not good enough. I've also been dismayed at hearing that if you upgrade Ubuntu on a Dell machine that came with 8.04 it breaks things like sound. I think Canonical should really be looking after the people who invested in an Ubuntu machine and making sure they never have any problems, even if they upgrade.

.

[aysiu]

You're absolutely right, it's not good enough. I've also been dismayed at hearing that if you upgrade Ubuntu on a Dell machine that came with 8.04 it breaks things like sound. I think Canonical should really be looking after the people who invested in an Ubuntu machine and making sure they never have any problems, even if they upgrade.

.
I'm going to chime in here, too, and say the Linux preinstalled scene definitely needs to shape up.

Two years ago, I bought an Eee PC with Xandros on it. Yes, it worked out of the box, but it had an Atheros wireless card in it. People had to create special versions of Linux to work with it.

Then, recently, I bought an HP Mini with Ubuntu on it. It sort of worked out of the box. It was a bit sluggish. Regular Ubuntu worked better on it... except no sound (okay, this I think is Linux's fault, a regression that was fixed with a new version of Alsa). Why did this Linux preinstalled model have a Broadcom wireless card in it, though? Broadcom is notoriously Linux-unfriendly, and it hasn't worked with any of the alpha releases of Karmic.

Although I agree fully with your point, I don't know how much influence Canonical has with Dell or HP.

Any small-time Ubuntu-exclusive shop like System76 or ZaReason, though, should sell only thoroughly tested systems with Linux-friendly components.

[Frak]

Any small-time Ubuntu-exclusive shop like System76 or ZaReason, though, should sell only thoroughly tested systems with Linux-friendly components.

I bought a computer from System76 around the time of Edgy Eft and received my computer with broken wireless (couldn't just select a network; there was a special way to configure it for every network it seemed) and no sound. Besides that, the Gnome power applet kept telling me the laptop was plugged in when it clearly wasn't, speakers would play sound even when headphones were plugged in, and sometimes I wasn't able to switch networks on the fly. If I was on wired, I could switch to wireless, but not the other way around.

Many of the issues were fixed in the next System76 driver, but it begged the question of why my laptop, which was designed for Ubuntu, had more problems than some other stock, Windows-by-default vendor laptops.

[aysiu]

I bought a computer from System76 around the time of Edgy Eft and received my computer with broken wireless (couldn't just select a network; there was a special way to configure it for every network it seemed) and no sound. Besides that, the Gnome power applet kept telling me the laptop was plugged in when it clearly wasn't, speakers would play sound even when headphones were plugged in, and sometimes I wasn't able to switch networks on the fly. If I was on wired, I could switch to wireless, but not the other way around.

Many of the issues were fixed in the next System76 driver, but it begged the question of why my laptop, which was designed for Ubuntu, had more problems than some other stock, Windows-by-default vendor laptops.
I think you misunderstand me.

When I say should, I mean it in a prescriptive sense, not an observationally speculative sense.

[Frak]

I think you misunderstand me.

When I say should, I mean it in a prescriptive sense, not an observationally speculative sense.
I was just replying to you saying "Any small-time Ubuntu-exclusive shop like System76 or ZaReason, though, should sell only thoroughly tested systems with Linux-friendly components."

The laptop ran stock Edgy Eft, no updates. Out of the box, those issues were present, bringing up the issue of whether System76 really "Thoroughly tested" the system before they sold it.

[aysiu]

I was just replying to you saying "Any small-time Ubuntu-exclusive shop like System76 or ZaReason, though, should sell only thoroughly tested systems with Linux-friendly components."

The laptop ran stock Edgy Eft, no updates. Out of the box, those issues were present, bringing up the issue of whether System76 really "Thoroughly tested" the system before they sold it.
And I was just clarifying that I meant should as in that's what they should be doing and aren't necessarily doing now, and not should as in I'm not sure they do but it would make sense for them to.

[Frak]

And I was just clarifying that I meant should as in that's what they should be doing and aren't necessarily doing now, and not should as in I'm not sure they do but it would make sense for them to.
And I was clarifying that my Druid was 5 levels higher than your Druid. +10 awesome

[Georgesl]

I was just replying to you saying "Any small-time Ubuntu-exclusive shop like System76 or ZaReason, though, should sell only thoroughly tested systems with Linux-friendly components."

The laptop ran stock Edgy Eft, no updates. Out of the box, those issues were present, bringing up the issue of whether System76 really "Thoroughly tested" the system before they sold it.

In my case, they said they didn't think to test the wireless range of their new netbook. The wireless issue was severe, stopping the connection when more than 15 feet from the access point. Decent range is a critical necessity with ultra-portable devices and it should have been one of the first things tested. Heck, I can't believe that someone from the outfit didn't take one of the first examples down to the local coffeehouse to show off and discover the problem the same way I did. Apparently they were so happy that the wireless worked at all on 9.04 (it apparently didn't on 8.XX) they just ran with it. This problem has supposedly been fixed with a driver patch, but the end user still has to reinstall the driver themselves every time the kernal is updated, not exactly user friendly.

The second computer had power management issues. It never recognized when it was on battery. Only 1:15 battery life with the CPU and cooling fans running full blast all the time. I later discovered through reading the forum that the issue had been known to exist for a couple of months before I bought my machine and I haven't heard about any resolution yet. I find this problem much harder to justify because it was a known issue on a computer that they have been selling for some time. Apparently it worked fine on 8.XX, but not on 9.04. If that is truly the case, they should have been shipping with 8.XX with instructions not to go to 9.04 until the problem was resolved.

To their credit, I received a full refund on both computers with no argument, but I'm still out the shipping and other headaches associated with the transaction.

On the good side it did inspire me to get closer to my resources and try Ubuntu on a legacy machine. This wasn't totally painless (ATI Rage 128, need I say more?) but at least I wasn't sweating a bunch of my $$$ on the deal. What problems I encountered had solutions easily found in the forums, not "We hope that it'll be fixed in the next release" nonsense.

When the pain dissipates I'll probably want to try an Ubuntu laptop again, but this time it will be after doing research myself to find out the correct legacy hardware to buy at the TRW swap meet.

[Frak]

<snipped for great justice>
I'm glad you got a refund. I never really pursued my issues, and everything works, so I don't have a problem.

As for future purchases from System76, I'll probably either be buying an Apple or HP next time. I haven't heard a lot of good press lately from them, and it doesn't look like it's getting better.

[orlox]

Guess they forgot to say:

Why should you choose windows 7 over linux for use on the upcoming low-cost, fan-less, very battery friendly ARM netbooks:

Linux: Perfectly compatible, these devices are mostly meant to be deployed with linux.
Windows: emmmm..aaaaaa....you know...how do I say it...we havent absolutely mentioned that there will never be a port of windows 7 to ARM, but you can run windows CE meanwhile!

[xenogia]

Seems that Microsoft are trying a new method to show Linux is a piece of crap and not worth trying. (sigh) I can see this post making a lot of people angry, at the same time I laughed at the slide.

Here is the link:
http://www.neowin.net/news/main/09/09/07/microsoft-internal-slideshow-for-retailers-targets-linux

[Sgt-Slyde]

It seems they're correct in specifically what they say - the "spin" to make the situation look favorable to them. I know lots of Windows users who are just as lost, though, and have just as much trouble getting printers, games, and office documents to work under Windows. You can't blame them - everyone who installs Linux potentially denies Microsoft a bunch of money.

[xenogia]

It seems they're correct in specifically what they say - the "spin" to make the situation look favorable to them. I know lots of Windows users who are just as lost, though, and have just as much trouble getting printers, games, and office documents to work under Windows. You can't blame them - everyone who installs Linux potentially denies Microsoft a bunch of money.

And as always Microsoft never has enough money.. lol

[cptrohn]

I don't know if it's linux specifically that has them scared.... or if it's Google's money and clout that has them scared.

People tend to love Google, and they have the $$$$ to go toe-toe with Microsoft... it will be an interesting fight.

[.Maleficus.]

I don't know if it's linux specifically that has them scared....
It's not.

What nobody seems to realize is that that training is to show why Windows 7 is going to be the best solution for netbooks and why (for most people) Linux isn't. None of what they say is false either. They also have a training on why Windows 7 is better (for most people) than a Mac would be, and why Windows 7 is better than XP and Vista. It's part of their "Windows 7 Expert" learning plan on Expert Zone and is meant to teach retail employees about Windows 7. I just did the entire learning plan yesterday. I learned quite a bit about Windows 7, laughed a bit at some of their remarks about OS X and Linux and now have a copy of Windows 7 Ultimate in the mail (yes, I will have the retail version in about 2 weeks). Totally worth the 45 minutes, somewhat silly Linux comments and $10 shipping.

[thisllub]

Note: Anonymous commenting is disabled in order to keep the quality of responses to a high standard.

Ha ha ha.

[xenogia]

The comments that follow that post are pretty hilarious :)

[chessnerd]

:-k :confused: :(

Well, it's pretty obvious that Microsoft and Best Buy both want people to use Windows 7. Microsoft sells it to Best Buy and Best Buy sells it to us, so they both make a profit on the success of Windows 7. Linux cuts into the sales of Windows 7 on netbooks. Therefore, Linux is a threat to their profit. Therefore, Linux is bad.

While everything that Microsoft said is "technically" true, it's very misleading to the point where it is walking along that thin line between facts and outright lies. For example, the slide that asks: "Linux is safer than Windows" Fact or Myth?
The part about parental controls is pretty much true. So, if you define "safer" as: easier to control what your kids do on the computer, then yes, Windows is "safer." As for that part about about security updates, well...

Microsoft bashes Linux. Linux bashes Microsoft. Apple bashes Microsoft. Microsoft bashes Apple. This is the way of the world. You cut down your competitors and build yourself up. It went on a thousand years ago, it goes on today, it will go on tomorrow.

Look on the bright side: a whole bunch of Best Buy employees that have never heard of Linux are going to get the term chucked at them, albeit in a negative way, but even bad press can be good press. :P

[Dr. C]

Microsoft is scared of GNU / Linux here and for many valid reasons. The slides are full of lies and half truths and once they are out in the wild can actually backfire since a customer who uses GNU / Linux can simply refer to the "sales training" and its lies when confronted by an employee who is trying to convince the customer to user Windows 7 over GNU / Linux.

Was Microsoft spooked by the FSF's seven sins campaign?

[Giant Speck]

I'm glad you got a refund. I never really pursued my issues, and everything works, so I don't have a problem.

As for future purchases from System76, I'll probably either be buying an Apple or HP next time. I haven't heard a lot of good press lately from them, and it doesn't look like it's getting better.

You know, I considered buying a computer from System76 once. But then I took one look at their outrageous prices and said "uh... no" and went to a different website.

[coldReactive]

You know, I considered buying a computer from System76 once. But then I took one look at their outrageous prices and said "uh... no" and went to a different website.

What website?

[geekygirl]

Microsoft is scared of GNU / Linux here and for many valid reasons. The slides are full of lies and half truths and once they are out in the wild can actually backfire since a customer who uses GNU / Linux can simply refer to the "sales training" and its lies when confronted by an employee who is trying to convince the customer to user Windows 7 over GNU / Linux.

Was Microsoft spooked by the FSF's seven sins campaign?


Half truths and lies, yes indeed there are a LOT in the slides, but is MS scared of the Linux movement (and RMS and his GNU)? I think not.

When Linux can play games as well as Windows, when 3rd party software developers start making their applications Linux compatible, when you can plug and play hardware and peripherals on a Linux box as easily (not to mention peripheral and hardware manufacturers making drivers for Linux) as Windows...then...and only then do I honestly think MS might get a little worried about losing another fragment of its market share....

Are they smart enough to realise that this will happen one day (probably not during the Windows 7 product life cycle though) I dont think so, their heads are so far up a certain part of their anatomy its not funny...and thats their biggest mistake, to brush of the uptake of Linux as a 'fad'.

[Frak]

When you can buy a mid-range to high-end computer with Linux preinstalled at your local Wal-Mart, Microsoft will be scared.

Until then, this is just business as usual.

[MC707]

dude, get imageshack. unlimited pictures, unlimited bandwidth. I can't remember what else is unlimited, too. No abusing though, please. photobucket sucks

on to the topic, that what M$ is doin is low cabron. Somehow though, it doesn't surprise me. I rather lol'd at them -_-

[KiwiNZ]

Its nothing to get excited about .It is typical overcoming objections sales training.Happens in all sectors.

[Giant Speck]

What website?

I was surf-shopping. Does it really matter what website I went to next? The point is I didn't stay on System76's website for long because I thought their computers were expensive.

[Grifulkin]

pictures here:

http://zip.4chan.org/g/res/5679814.html

404'd

[Grifulkin]

I was surf-shopping. Does it really matter what website I went to next? The point is I didn't stay on System76's website for long because I thought their computers were expensive.

Yeah, they are quite expensive actually, you can buy a computer somewhere else for much cheaper ditch windows get the money back and bam, cheap cheap cheap, relatively speaking. The only computer I have ever bought is my old laptop, built all my desktops and I got a netbook last Christmas, love that thing.

[Dr. C]

Its nothing to get excited about .It is typical overcoming objections sales training.Happens in all sectors.

The fact that GNU / Linux is mentioned in this context is very significant. It indicates that Microsoft sees GNU / Linux as a threat in the desktop. This would not have happened 5 years ago.

As for software and hardware compatibility. There are Windows applications that will run under GNU / Linux under wine and will not run under Vista, and hardware that is just works on GNU / Linux and needs software and driver installation under Windows. This is especially true when comparing 64bit GNU/ Linux with 64bit Windows where the drivers may not even be available for 64bit Windows, and lets not even talk about ARM processors.

[misfitpierce]

http://quaoar.ww7.be/ms_fud_of_the_year/569458-microsoft-attack-linux-retail-level-probably.html

Updated... link with working pics... and most of what microsoft is saying including Ubuntu is false... Just a scam to get ppl to buy the Windows netbooks instead of the Ubuntu ones at stores.

[Giant Speck]

Yeah, they are quite expensive actually, you can buy a computer somewhere else for much cheaper ditch windows get the money back and bam, cheap cheap cheap, relatively speaking. The only computer I have ever bought is my old laptop, built all my desktops and I got a netbook last Christmas, love that thing.

See, I don't mind having Windows there. I remember when I was shopping for a laptop last time, I was looking on those custom laptop websites like iBuyPower. They advertise a few affordable laptops... until you realize they don't have an operating system on them. By the time you add Windows to the price, they are no longer affordable.

I ended up buying a really good refurbished laptop. I love it. :D

[SlugSlug]

.ExternalClass .EC_hmmessage P {padding:0px;} .ExternalClass body.EC_hmmessage {font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;} http://www.geek.com/articles/geek-pick/microsoft-expertzone-training-teaches-best-buy-employees-about-linux-inferiority-2009097/


WTF :lolflag:

[aaaantoine]

Jerks.

The only thing Windows really has going for it is Windows software compatibility. A big thing, yes, but anything else is either subjective or an outright lie.

[Tristam Green]

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1259242

k.

See all points in the above thread, and take an objective look at the nature of corporate training.

[Skripka]

This is only like the 20th time this has been posted in 4 days...

[xrecar]

Looks like M$ is more and more aware each day about Linux's growth and potential.

Microsoft is now offering "Training" (if it can be called like that) material to Best Buy employees which teaches them how to trash linux and some other "facts" that.... ugh!, see for yourselves.

Original Article:
http://technabob.com/blog/2009/09/08/microsoft-miseducates-best-buy-employees-about-linux/

Engadget post:
http://www.engadget.com/2009/09/08/microsofts-training-materials-teach-best-buy-employees-how-to-t/

[misfitpierce]

This is a duplicate post, this was covered last night on here :)

But yes... I think it's messed up.

[Bachstelze]

Nothing surprising coming from Microsoft. However, I wonder how many BestBuy employees really believe this, and tell this to customers. I mean, when a company (any company, not just Microsoft) is praising its own product, common sense should tell you not to believe it blindly.

[orlox]

Nothing surprising coming from Microsoft. However, I wonder how many BestBuy employees really believe this, and tell this to customers. I mean, when a company (any company, not just Microsoft) is praising its own product, common sense should tell you not to believe it blindly.

They probably take this courses just to get their 10 dollar retail copy of windows 7.

[magmon]

The earlier thread relating to this was removed before I had a chance to respond.

I see this as an oportunity. We can tell anyone who believes microsoft's lies that they where lied to, that linux is better than they where told, and use the anger caused by the spread of this misinformation to restore the name and status of linux.

[bodyharvester]

Nothing surprising coming from Microsoft. However, I wonder how many BestBuy employees really believe this, and tell this to customers. I mean, when a company (any company, not just Microsoft) is praising its own product, common sense should tell you not to believe it blindly.

i believe what you're saying, i also believe most people have the common sense to see through such actions. Unfortunately when your only goal is to get a sale any way to scare people away from the "free-alternative" is a golden opportunity to get a huge sale from the newly released Win7 and maximize profit whilst improving your relationship with your boss.

I do not think all Best-Buy employees are heartless like that but i cant help remember that thread about ineptitude inside an electronics store. I think it was called, Funniest Things You Heard In A Computer Store.

[NormanFLinux]

Microsoft's closed source proprietary model makes it impossible for any one outside the company to know where bugs are since the code isn't released by the company. Linux is open source and if something doesn't work right, people let the developers know. Who has the faster turnaround in the market? I'm betting thats not Windows!

[NormanFLinux]

Broadcom works with Jaunty. Karmic Koala is only alpha and to be fair with the new kernel, the wireless drivers are going to have to be written in. Any modern laptop with a Broadcom or Atheros card will work under Linux

[semitone36]

Hey I read Digg too!

[MikeTheC]

This battle will not be won by fighting it in the minds and among the ranks of Best Buy "Geek Squad" employees alone. It will be waged and fought street to street and house to house across continents, and it will only be won slowly.

All of us must tread very carefully but be willing to fight boldly.

[xrecar]

@misfitpierce Did not know it was covered already. sorry.

However, that was LOW, even coming from them.
"Security in linux is a myth".... LMAO!!

"Linux does not offer updates easily and periodically"...
That's one of the reasons why I managed to make two friends of mine make the full switch to linux in one day, because of the constant updates ubuntu offers, not to mention all updastes available on other distros dailiy....

But who knows? probably they were using a pirated version of windows xp dressed up as ubuntu when making the comparison

[tsali]

It's called marketing, folks.

Linux could stand a little of its own.

Given the myriad travails I've experienced with linux, I find it hard to recommend it to any but the most adventurous. There are more difficult truths about using linux that would probably be more difficult for the typical big box employee to articulate.

[Mr. Picklesworth]

Printed, too. Cute!
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/09/09/ms_linux_pitch/

Someone should also point out to them that Linux.org is the furthest from an official resource you can get. (I really haven't found many people in this community who particularly like that web site, since it's riddled with advertising and horrendous 90's web design).

Linux.com would be the most official (and awesome) source ;)

To me, this just proves that they lack the research skills to figure out basic facts about Linux for a "comparison". (They don't even find a negative thing to say Windows doesn't have and Linux does. It's just all stuff Windows does well with and they assume Linux doesn't). This confirms to me that they lack brain power, and thus I should not trust a product from Microsoft since the research behind it is weaker than a grade 1 science project.

I work in retail (part time, don't worry), so I'm quietly hoping our MS rep drops by with these so I can try to convert him in retaliation.

[ade234uk]

Bullies. I don't care if people say get over it, but why do Microsoft have to damage a free product.

http://quaoar.ww7.be/ms_fud_of_the_year/569458-microsoft-attack-linux-retail-level-probably.html

[Exodist]

Blamers an idiot. M$s on worst enemy isnt Linux, its M$.
No one would here would prob use Linux if windows was as good as linux.

For the life of me I never can see why the heck they just dont make windows based on Linux like Apple did with unix (Think it was NetBSD??) into OSX.
Mind you I dont like OSX as I find it a huge pain to use.

[forestpiskie]

merged with other thread

[Chame_Wizard]

Looks like they are getting wacko every day.:lolflag:

[Bigtime_Scrub]

"Windows Live Essentials is unsupported in Linux."

LMFAO I spit my soda all over the place when I read that. Yeah Linux doesn't have free software. :lolflag:

Linux also does not have "Authorized" support. Go tell Red Hat or SuSe they have no support for their OS.

What a bunch of FUD. I can't wait to rip a new one in a poor Worst Buy employee next time I'm looking at computers.

[tsali]

"Windows Live Essentials is unsupported in Linux."

LMFAO I spit my soda all over the place when I read that. Yeah Linux doesn't have free software. :lolflag:

Linux also does not have "Authorized" support. Go tell Red Hat or SuSe they have no support for their OS.

What a bunch of FUD. I can't wait to rip a new one in a poor Worst Buy employee next time I'm looking at computers.

There is no equivalent to live essentials in linux that I can find. Certainly not to Movie Maker.

Additionally, there doesn't appear to be any commercial linux vendor that offers CONSUMER level support in the same vein as Microsoft. Red Hat, SUSE and Canonical all offer commercial level - and very expensive - support options.

What was that you were saying about FUD?

[Bachstelze]

Additionally, there doesn't appear to be any commercial linux vendor that offers CONSUMER level support in the same vein as Microsoft.

What kind of consumer-level support does Microsoft offer?

[Tristam Green]

I can't wait to rip a new one in a poor Worst Buy employee next time I'm looking at computers.

Shame on you.

[.Maleficus.]

What a bunch of FUD. I can't wait to rip a new one in a poor Worst Buy employee next time I'm looking at computers.
Oh gawd, you don't know how much it would make my day if you came into the Best Buy I worked at, expecting to "rip me a new one" when it comes to Linux knowledge.


I'll be waiting ;).

[falkTX]

This is funny for me.

Quote:
"Linux can require a lot of time to maintain.
For example, Ubuntu (a version of Linux) may have hundreds of updates a month"

[Bachstelze]

Oh gawd, you don't know how much it would make my day if you came into the Best Buy I worked at, expecting to "rip me a new one" when it comes to Linux knowledge.


I'll be waiting ;).

'kay, where do you work?

[.Maleficus.]

'kay, where do you work?
The only store in Marathon County, The Dairy State. You better get a plane ticket here fast, my last day is coming up for school.

[ELD]

I mean, when a company (any company, not just Microsoft) is praising its own product, common sense should tell you not to believe it blindly.

This, anything i can i will try myself before i buy.

[Eestlane]

Actually anti-advertising might have a positive effect to have people even knowledge that Linux exists.

[Bigtime_Scrub]

There is no equivalent to live essentials in linux that I can find. Certainly not to Movie Maker.

Additionally, there doesn't appear to be any commercial linux vendor that offers CONSUMER level support in the same vein as Microsoft. Red Hat, SUSE and Canonical all offer commercial level - and very expensive - support options.

What was that you were saying about FUD?

I'd like to know what consumer level support for Windows there is. From my experience the only thing they offer is bug reports which they don't listen to, feature requests which they don't listen to, and OEM/Key requests which they sometimes don't listen to.

There is tons of great free software in Linux. As far as MovieMaker goes, for Linux I'd try Avidemux, Kino, Cinelerra, or KDenLive.


Also, about the Best Buy thingy... I only mean to say that if they try to push Windows on me and try to sell it to me when I clearly tell them I don't want it and that I use Linux. I will get upset.

[Ozor Mox]

There is no equivalent to live essentials in linux that I can find. Certainly not to Movie Maker.

Additionally, there doesn't appear to be any commercial linux vendor that offers CONSUMER level support in the same vein as Microsoft. Red Hat, SUSE and Canonical all offer commercial level - and very expensive - support options.

What was that you were saying about FUD?

In my opinion there are far superior products to the Windows Live stuff. That's not even the point though. The point is it's like Linux promotional material saying "GNOME is unsupported" as though it is a negative point for Windows. Well of course it's unsupported, it was never designed for that platform!

It's just pathetic marketing nonsense FUD presented as "fact". I'm really not surprised though, most companies talk this kind of rubbish, not just Microsoft.

[Tristam Green]

http://content.zdnet.com/2346-12554_22-340537-1.html

Good game, now I'll never read ZDNet again.

[ELD]

http://content.zdnet.com/2346-12554_22-340537-1.html

Good game, now I'll never read ZDNet again.

Erm why?

Honestly i don't care, i've read posts about how a Linux group will be doing crap against windows 7, it happens everywhere.

I will be using both Ubuntu and Win7, i like both.

[mdsmedia]

Local "equivalents" of Best Buy, here in Australia, don't need the MS training to have little knowledge of Linux, and to misinform their customers.

I was in a local computer department of a large retailer (Harvey Norman shall remain nameless) looking for a wireless mouse. On the back of each box it lists the hardware requirements, and Windows and Mac OS are predominant, if not exclusive...it appears no mouse works with Linux....so I said to one of the salesmen, "so I take it this won't work with Linux?". The response was "probably not".

Who needs FUD when the salespeople have no idea in the first place?

[Tristam Green]

Erm why?

Honestly i don't care, i've read posts about how a Linux group will be doing crap against windows 7, it happens everywhere.

I will be using both Ubuntu and Win7, i like both.

When any writer that's supposed to be an independent reporter of information begins tossing around the glorious FUD accusations, I lose interest in the "independence" of the report.

This goes both ways, it doesn't matter if they're reporting about MS doing it to Linux, or vice versa. It gets tiresome.

I'd expect this story to be on the front page of Linux.com or the FSF's page, but not on ZDnet.

[MountainX]

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13846_3-10346669-62.html

Microsoft mis-educates Best Buy on Linux

[sydbat]

It's called marketing, folks.

Linux could stand a little of its own.I agree.

Given the myriad travails I've experienced with linux, I find it hard to recommend it to any but the most adventurous. There are more difficult truths about using linux that would probably be more difficult for the typical big box employee to articulate.I feel bad that you have had negative experiences with Linux. However, I think they are more the exception than the rule.

So far, my 82 year old dad, a mid-50-something friend, an early 30's co-worker, and my wife (who is ageless) all use Ubuntu without problems.

Also, I have at least 5 other people of varying ages who are quite interested in using Ubuntu, and I have given them CD's after showing them how it works (LiveCD presentations are great, especially on their box). I have educated them (as best as I can) that some things might not work like they did with Windows (peripherals mostly), but I can help them set things up (install, etc) when they are ready and work through any minor issues that might pop up (only my dad's computer has a peripheral problem - Canon printer that worked for almost a year before dying - but we are looking for a new one) So far, no one else has had ANY problems, and this is on a myriad of system architectures using Hardy (32 AND 64 bit).

So, again, I suggest that your experiences are more the exception than the rule...which is unfortunate, but explains your comments.

[NightwishFan]

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13846_3-10346669-62.html

Microsoft mis-educates Best Buy on Linux

I heard about this. I still am not quite sure if that is true or not. If it is, then I have lost any and all respect for anything Microsoft stands for. (Even the rare good stuff). It is all misinformation and half-truths.

[sydbat]

This is only like the 20th time this has been posted in 4 days...Shall we try for 100 in 7?

[Bachstelze]

Shall we try for 100 in 7?

Not even in joke.

[Chronon]

Not even in joke.

It was funny, though. :D

[TheNosh]

This battle will not be won by fighting it in the minds and among the ranks of Best Buy "Geek Squad" employees alone. It will be waged and fought street to street and house to house across continents, and it will only be won slowly.

All of us must tread very carefully but be willing to fight boldly.

i'm hoping that this was entirely a joke (and if it was, then jolly good, and i see no problem) and not supposed to be a valid point just a tad dramatized. the fact that linux users keep talking about software choice as some sort of war were we are the heroic underdogs just makes us sound like crazies and doesn't help anything.

personally i have no problem with using an OS that has minority market share, but if i did i'd try to make my position sound a tad less like a holy war.

[Mateo]

All of the slides are at least arguably true. There's not one that can be pointed at at being flat-out wrong. Here is a point by point look.

Linux can require a lot of time to maintain. For example, Ubuntu (a version of Linux) may have hundreds of updates a month

This is, of course, absolutely true. I would argue that frequent updates are a good thing, however I cannot accuse them of miseducation.

It can be unclear to users whether or not software updates need to be applied immediately or are optional

This is true. While critical updates are pointed out, a user has no way of knowing this when he/she initially installs a linux OS.

Linux does not support many common applications and online services like iTunes, Zune, Quicken, Photoshop, and Office 2007


Absolutely true, without debate.

Windows works with more software and devices

Definitely works with more software, this is without question. Although I believe linux works with more hardware total, that is due to it's support for ancient hardware that is rarely used today. For consumer devices, Windows wins hands-down.

[When using Linux] There’s no guarantee that when security vulnerabilities are discovered, an update will be created. Users are on their own.

I would disagree with this, but this is not miseducation. They are arguing that because linux isn't backed by one big company, security updates are not assured. I would argue that no security updates are assured, and although linux has the flaw of not being back by a big company, it still manages to fix security vulnerabilities extremely well.

There is no ability to set parental restrictions

I'll decline to answer this one, I am not aware of such programs.

Linux is a self help solution. There are no step-by-step tutorials provided, and help documentation is limited
Because there are different “flavors” of Linux, you can’t learn one version and be sure you know them all

Of course this is undoubtedly true.

Definitely none of these points are miseducation. Don't confuse having a different perspective with lying.

[tsali]

What kind of consumer-level support does Microsoft offer?

See if you can find a page like this at Red Hat or SUSE:

http://support.microsoft.com/

I've used MS Phone support twice in two years. Both times, it was free...and very efficient. A MS support supervisor CALLED me the following day to make sure that computer was STILL operating properly. That was impressive.

They helped me repair the MBR following a failed linux install. That may sound simple, but I didn't know how to do that at the time and I really needed to complete the WinXP install by midnight.

[texpat]

All of the slides are at least arguably true...

Kudos for being the 'devil's advocate'. However, I can't help but disagree. The mis-education is crystal clear in my eyes. If you look at the letter of the text, perhaps you could construe that some of the information is not entirely incorrect. If, however, you look at how it is presented it is clear enough that they are trying to deceive consumers into interpreting it in a way that Linux is far inferior to Windows.

Just a few examples here (I'm not going to run down the whole list):

#1 Linux takes a lot of time to maintain...[]
Bulls***! Same as their update system it will d/l stuff in the background and install it for you. Only intervention needed is to provide root password. So it does this more often than their system does... That is a Good Thing, same as having to authorise installs with a password.

They're trying to create the impression that you'll be fiddling about with updates all the time, and that is a lie.

#2 It is unclear whether updates are important (paraphrased that a bit).
This is more FUD. Updating any system nowadays is a non-issue (see #1). Oh, and Linux will not push a WGA onto your machine labelled 'critical update', either.

This is one where the pure letter of the text is, as such, not incorrect. The way it is presented, however, is clearly to cause consumers to beleive this to be a big problem. I find this rather disgusting.

Anyway, I hope you see where I'm going. If some Linux corporation were to use these tactics against MS, you can bet they'd get their butts sued off.

[kpholmes]

I came accross this just a while ago and was kinda skeptic but found more reports on google. I figured I'd share this with the community. You can also see some of the training manual, Which makes it pretty interesting.


Anyways here you go:

http://www.businessinsider.com/microsoft-trains-windows-sales-people-to-bash-linux-the-horror-2009-9

[chriskin]

sorry, already been talked about.
check the recurring discussions (i think)

[bodyharvester]

lol who was it that suggested trying to get this thing reported 100 times in 7 days:popcorn:

[overdrank]

Threads merged

[n3had]

I don't know whether this is already posted over here, btw check this out!

Microsoft is apparently teaching Best Buy employees that Windows 7 beats Linux in every category imaginable. Redmond isn't just saying that Windows has more software or games available than Linux does or that Windows has compatibility with more devices and hardware than Linux does. The software giant is actually going as far as teaching employees that there are certain statements about Linux that need to be labeled as myths.
http://static.arstechnica.com/windows_linux_bb_1.png

http://static.arstechnica.com/windows_linux_bb_3.png

http://static.arstechnica.com/windows_linux_bb_9.png

http://static.arstechnica.com/windows_linux_bb_10.png

http://static.arstechnica.com/windows_linux_bb_11.png

more here (http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2009/09/microsoft-teaches-best-buy-employees-how-to-troll-linux-users.ars)

[SunnyRabbiera]

Proves once again they are anti competitive and are scared crapless of linux

[schauerlich]

Proves once again they are anti competitive and are scared crapless of linux

O rly?

Also: late, repost of a repost, etc.

[ukripper]

Another FUD by MS -Read here --> http://blog.internetnews.com/skerner/2009/09/red-hat-accuses-microsoft-of-p.html

[demosthene1]

I bought my Toshiba laptop at Best Buy. I believe this was before the Microsoft propaganda training. I told the salesman I was going to install Linux and that is what I did. I turned on the computer long enough to open the cd/dvd tray to insert my Lnux cd and haven't looked back.

I don't miss Windows. I love Linux, and feel most at home with Ubuntu. Ubuntu runs all the programs I need. I am not a gamer so that could be a reason some might prefer Windows.

[marchwarden]

I don't know whether this is already posted over here, btw check this out!

It has: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1261346

[Ubu2009]

truly pathetic of them to do this. Why are they so afraid of, Linux is not a threat to them. or do they fear the upcoming Google Chrome OS so much so they have to start anti campaign this early? :lolflag:

[SunnyRabbiera]

truly pathetic of them to do this. Why are they so afraid of, Linux is not a threat to them. or do they fear the upcoming Google Chrome OS so much so they have to start anti campaign this early? :lolflag:

Linux is more of a threat to them then you think, I think it was Ballmer or Gates who said they consider linux a bigger threat then apple.

[madnessjack]

Most of it's bull but it ain't all wrong. Windows is in no way more secure than Linux, but after getting my desktop trashed by an Ubuntu upgrade yesterday, I can understand some of what they're trying to get at. Shame it's such a negative campaign.

[n3had]

It has: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1261346

lol sorry for the repost just realized its last decade

[koshatnik]

Proves once again they are anti competitive and are scared crapless of linux

Nope. It shows they have no faith in their own product. If you know your product is good and it will sell, you don't care what your competitors are upto.

[schauerlich]

Proves once again they are anti competitive and are scared crapless of linux

Linux is more of a threat to them then you think, I think it was Ballmer or Gates who said they consider linux a bigger threat then apple.

http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/2690/hansolo.jpg
"I'm out of it for a little while, and everybody gets delusions of grandeur..."

[Possum Films]

One of the things I find amusing about this is that Microsoft criticise Linux for not being compatible with Windows Live and Office. Shouldn't they be the ones taking the blame for that? It's also a bit strange that they criticise Linux software updates when Windows 7 doesn't even have that feature. The argument that Linux is hard to use because there are so many distributions is a bit lame too, since there are also many different editions of Windows 7 and you don't actually need to "know them all".

I'd like to know how much of that information (in any) Microsoft found from actual research. [-X

[schauerlich]

One of the things I find amusing about this is that Microsoft criticise Linux for not being compatible with Windows Live and Office. Shouldn't they be the ones taking the blame for that?

They didn't criticize Linux for not having it as much as touting it as an advantage that Windows has over Linux. If you use those services, it is an advantage.

It's also a bit strange that they criticise Linux software updates when Windows 7 doesn't even have that feature.

I don't own a porsche, but I can still tell when it's out of gas.

I'm not saying their criticisms are valid, just that that argument is not.

The argument that Linux is hard to use because there are so many distributions is a bit lame too, since there are also many different editions of Windows 7 and you don't actually need to "know them all".

There is a big difference between distributions of Linux and versions of Windows 7. Each of the versions of Windows 7 is basically the same thing, with progressively more programs/features included/unlocked as you put more money down. Various linux distributions actually have core differences that affect diagnostics and support issues, as well as a general understanding of "how stuff works".

Again, not judging the criticisms, only the argument.

[koshatnik]

It's a subtle and clever marketing scam, nothing more. Microsoft is comparing Linux unfavourably to its own incompatible product, which will have only one outcome, but its touting this as a failing of Linux. Its like blaming an apple for not being a banana. "But hey, what gives? You're both fruit..."

[3rdalbum]

This is incredible. Those three criticisms of Linux actually apply more to Windows.

I say, if we see any of this Microsoft marketing material in stores, we make our own pro-Linux material and stick it up over the Microsoft FUD.

[Tristam Green]

This is incredible. Those three criticisms of Linux actually apply more to Windows.

I say, if we see any of this Microsoft marketing material in stores, we make our own pro-Linux material and stick it up over the Microsoft FUD.

Right, because the Linux Renegades are totally gonna stick it to the man Fonz-style.

This whole thing is beyond tiresome.

[pwnst*r]

...you don't care what your competitors are upto.

you've never taken a business class. you ALWAYS care what your competitors are up to, are you kidding me?

[pwnst*r]

I say, if we see any of this Microsoft marketing material in stores, we make our own pro-Linux material and stick it up over the Microsoft FUD.

:(

[koshatnik]

you've never taken a business class. you ALWAYS care what your competitors are up to, are you kidding me?

I ran a successful business for 6 years, before selling it. I never cared what my competitors were upto, I concentrated on the service I had to offer and make that better. A great product sells itself. I took loads of business off my competitors. :p

Yeah, I know Business 101 harps on about KNOW YOUR COMPETITOR, THIS IS WAR! but real life is a bit different to a class room. Its a massive waste of time and energy concentrating on competitors. Get your schtick right, let others worry about theirs.

Brian Clough, one of the UK's most successful football managers, was the only top flight manager that never cared about what opponent his team were due to face. When he took over at Leeds United, he burnt every single opposition report on file. His epithet was, I don't need to know what they are doing, I only need to know what we are. If I do that, we'll win the game.

The opposition are irrelevant. If you are good enough, you're good enough.

[LowSky]

I saw this on engadget a few days ago.
I do find this funny that microsoft is actually fighting Linux, when Apple has been stealing marketshare more than Windows.

But then again, even in the own PC ads, people always check out the Macs and say they would buy them if they had enough money, go figure!


honestly didn't know that Best Buy carried any Linux computers


well the dont, but they do have DJ Linux, LOL

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp;jsessionid=BBFBDA83962370C6CE42D96C9B0 EE6A2.bbolsp-app03-18?_dyncharset=ISO-8859-1&_dynSessConf=3489347349810852831&id=pcat17071&type=page&st=linux&sc=Global&cp=1&nrp=15&sp=&qp=&list=n&iht=y&usc=All+Categories&ks=960

[sydbat]

I ran a successful business for 6 years, before selling it. I never cared what my competitors were upto, I concentrated on the service I had to offer and make that better. A great product sells itself. I took loads of business off my competitors. :p

Yeah, I know Business 101 harps on about KNOW YOUR COMPETITOR, THIS IS WAR! but real life is a bit different to a class room. Its a massive waste of time and energy concentrating on competitors. Get your schtick right, let others worry about theirs.

Brian Clough, one of the UK's most successful football managers, was the only top flight manager that never cared about what opponent his team were due to face. When he took over at Leeds United, he burnt every single opposition report on file. His epithet was, I don't need to know what they are doing, I only need to know what we are. If I do that, we'll win the game.

The opposition are irrelevant. If you are good enough, you're good enough.This is absolutely true...especially the "real life is a bit different to a class room" statement.

[NightwishFan]

I once called Microsoft because I had to 're'-activate Windows Xp and I did not have the internet. Thankfully I did not have to owe them money to do so. Something like that should have been avoided in the first place.

The second time I called was to try to fix an Xbox, and I got a computerized voice that could not recognize my average accent.

"CONSOLE CAN'T READ DISKS!!!!!"

[SunnyRabbiera]

http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/2690/hansolo.jpg
"I'm out of it for a little while, and everybody gets delusions of grandeur..."

Oh come on, if they weren't afraid they would not be doing this.

[ScrewdriverClock]

This kind of stuff bothers me. I'm primarily a Windows user, and I'll even go out to say I'm a fan of the Windows OS over the GNU/Linux based ones. My main reason for this is of course familiarity, and I have enough of a grasp of Windows that if I DO run into a problem, I can solve it in a few minutes rather than hours. Someone earlier said that Microsoft is their own worst enemy, and they're sort of right. While they do release SDK's for some of their tools and applications, most of it is in house, and having to develop for all that hardware could be taxing for their developers I'm sure. One of the things I think Microsoft could learn from the Linux projects is to ask for help from the community. I'm the type who is willing to pay for a well made product; I'd pay for Ubuntu if I was asked, really! But you also have to look, I think this information is targeted at the average "basic" user, who doesn't know or want to know how to update through the terminal, or use it at all... in which case some of this is "SLIGHTLY" true.. while other parts of it are indeed outrageous lies... sucks :(

[P4man]

You can hardly blame MS for trying. But ahm.. why not a counter offensive?

If some motivated linux advocates feel like preparing and giving a "ubuntu" sales pitch or training to bestbuy and other employees, it would be more productive.

In general I kind miss some "marketing" material for ubuntu. Something like a single A4 paper or a short (1-5 min) videoclip that shows what ubuntu is (and what it isn't) and why someone might want to consider it.

Putting it here:
http://spreadubuntu.neomenlo.org/

would be a good start.

Any takers ? :)

[schauerlich]

Oh come on, if they weren't afraid they would not be doing this.

Saying your product is better than your competitor's (and its corollary, that your competitor's product is worse than yours) is marketing 101. It doesn't mean Microsoft is "scared crapless".

[P4man]

Saying your product is better than your competitor's (and its corollary, that your competitor's product is worse than yours) is marketing 101. It doesn't mean Microsoft is "scared crapless".

Actually, marketing 101 says you don't mention your competitors if you are the market leader. You talk about your own stuff and don't mention the alternatives no one else knows, it only gives them credibility. The only times you saw intel mention AMD was when AMD got them cornered some years back. You won't see coca cola comparing themselves to pepsi cola saying they are better or less calorie or whatever.

(Of course this MS training thing here is not really public so it still fits).

[schauerlich]

Actually, marketing 101 says you don't mention your competitors if you are the market leader. You talk about your own stuff and don't mention the alternatives no one else knows, it only gives them credibility. The only times you saw intel mention AMD was when AMD got them cornered some years back. You won't see coca cola comparing themselves to pepsi cola saying they are better or less calorie or whatever.

I'm pretty sure the point of this material is to give Best Buy employees something to say if a customer mentions "well, I was thinking about linux..." while they're trying to make a sale. I really doubt it's intended for Best Buy employees to go around saying "Yeah, this megatron 9000 has a 4.5PHz Core i27 dodectuple core processor... and if you install linux on it, your cat will get run over by a car!"

(yes, that was hyperbole, in case you didn't get it. :D )

[jrusso2]

What kind of consumer-level support does Microsoft offer?

If you buy a retail package its 30 days of phone installation support I believe

[mdsmedia]

I ran a successful business for 6 years, before selling it. I never cared what my competitors were upto, I concentrated on the service I had to offer and make that better. A great product sells itself. I took loads of business off my competitors. :p

Yeah, I know Business 101 harps on about KNOW YOUR COMPETITOR, THIS IS WAR! but real life is a bit different to a class room. Its a massive waste of time and energy concentrating on competitors. Get your schtick right, let others worry about theirs.

Brian Clough, one of the UK's most successful football managers, was the only top flight manager that never cared about what opponent his team were due to face. When he took over at Leeds United, he burnt every single opposition report on file. His epithet was, I don't need to know what they are doing, I only need to know what we are. If I do that, we'll win the game.

The opposition are irrelevant. If you are good enough, you're good enough.
Where are Leeds United, now? LOL

[mdsmedia]

I'm pretty sure the point of this material is to give Best Buy employees something to say if a customer mentions "well, I was thinking about linux..." while they're trying to make a sale. I really doubt it's intended for Best Buy employees to go around saying "Yeah, this megatron 9000 has a 4.5PHz Core i27 dodectuple core processor... and if you install linux on it, your cat will get run over by a car!"

(yes, that was hyperbole, in case you didn't get it. :D )

I'd love to have a Best Buy salesperson try to use any of MS's crap on me, if I mentioned wanting to use Linux, but then, I'm no longer an average Windows user looking to use Linux for the first time. If that's the case, it's a pretty narrow field to be protecting against.

[schauerlich]

I'd love to have a Best Buy salesperson try to use any of MS's crap on me, if I mentioned wanting to use Linux, but then, I'm no longer an average Windows user looking to use Linux for the first time. If that's the case, it's a pretty narrow field to be protecting against.

Which is probably why they only offered an optional 10 page PowerPoint presentation on it.

[mdsmedia]

Which is probably why they only offered an optional 10 page PowerPoint presentation on it.
That may be the counter-offensive then. Go into Best Buy, mention you're thinking of Linux, have them use their MS FUD campaign, and then mount the counter-offensive and give the Best Buy guy a real education, in a nice way of course.

This can only be counter-productive for MS. Most who mention Linux will know more than the Best Buy guy, if they're using the MS FUD.

[schauerlich]

That may be the counter-offensive then. Go into Best Buy, mention you're thinking of Linux, have them use their MS FUD campaign, and then mount the counter-offensive and give the Best Buy guy a real education, in a nice way of course.

I'm glad you've undertake such a humanitarian effort.


Seriously, though. If I were a Best Buy employee and I was trying to steer a sale and a customer took it upon himself to "educate" me, I'd tell him to buy something or get out.

[running_rabbit07]

Nothing surprising coming from Microsoft. However, I wonder how many BestBuy employees really believe this, and tell this to customers. I mean, when a company (any company, not just Microsoft) is praising its own product, common sense should tell you not to believe it blindly.

After a few trips to Best Buy and talking to the sales people, I don't think they really pay much attention to their training (not all of them, just the ones I have talked to). Try asking them if a mouse or cam is Linux compatible. They will grab the box and look at it for a minute then says, "Nope, not mentioned on the box. You will have to special order it." I anded up buying the mouse anyway and when I got home and plugged it in, it worked fine.
As is obvious, there are people that work there that may be Linux whizzes, but I have yet to see her/him.

On the other hand most people would never even ask them about Linux. Most consumers only think Mac and Windows.

[mdsmedia]

I'm glad you've undertake such a humanitarian effort.


Seriously, though. If I were a Best Buy employee and I was trying to steer a sale and a customer took it upon himself to "educate" me, I'd tell him to buy something or get out.
If he started to use the MS FUD campaign, I'd simply re-educate him on the points he made from the FUD campaign.

If he told me to "buy something or get out" I'd go elsewhere and he'd be the loser.

I was looking for a wireless mouse one day, in our "equivalent" of a Best Buy (Harvey Norman), and all the boxes showed required system as Windows or Mac. I asked a salesman, sitting nearby, if that meant it wouldn't work with Linux, he replied with "probably". I felt like telling him I'd go elsewhere, where someone knew something about computers. I chose a mouse and and went home.

If I got the MS FUD from a Best Buy rep I WOULD tell him I'd go elsewhere, where someone knew something about computers.

[schauerlich]

If he started to use the MS FUD campaign, I'd simply re-educate him on the points he made from the FUD campaign.
Which is obnoxious and overbearing. He's a dude getting paid $8 an hour to sell what people tell him to sell, and you take it upon yourself to "make a point" to him and get in his face about it? He probably doesn't care at all about other people's opinions of Linux. He's just trying to get through his day at work so he can get a paycheck. You're taking up time that he could be using to help customers with a "counter-offensive" "re-education" campaign that will do nothing but annoy some poor sap who just wants to go on his lunch break.

I was looking for a wireless mouse one day, in our "equivalent" of a Best Buy (Harvey Norman), and all the boxes showed required system as Windows or Mac. I asked a salesman, sitting nearby, if that meant it wouldn't work with Linux, he replied with "probably". I felt like telling him I'd go elsewhere, where someone knew something about computers.
What if someone asked you if a piece of hardware worked with FreeBSD? You wouldn't have much to respond with either. (If you're familiar with FreeBSD, substitute it with any OS that you're not familiar with - the point remains the same).

[clonne4crw]

I know, this isn't the first post of this, but I really want the word of this sh_t to get out. I think this is completley ridiculous. Is it ok if i do a little ranting? I have no intention of bashing Windows, as I think that it is a good OS, with a few problems here and there.

<rant>
What bothers me the most is that the choose to personally attack the 'silent-but-there' Linux instead of the more annoying and decision-influencing 'Hi, I'm a mac' ads.

Now, after being brainwashed, consumers will now associate the word 'Linux' with the persona of what is now Microsoft.

I can't stand to watch Linux get such a bad name.

Links:
http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2009/09/microsoft-teaches-best-buy-employees-how-to-troll-linux-users.ars

http://episteme.arstechnica.com/eve/forums?a=dl&f=174096756&x_id=mtid39639

http://digg.com/microsoft/Microsoft_Confirms_Yep_we_Teach_Best_Buy_to_Trash_ Linux

http://www.flickr.com/photos/pacman3000/3904063316/sizes/l/

There's WAY more somewhere...
'Windows is more secure'. Yeah. Sure. Whatever you and your sh_ttastic web browser say. Maybe back with NT 3.51

'Myth: Updates are easy'. Ummm... Start>Programs> Automatic Updates... um... now what? Oh, wait ill try Control Panel... which category?

'Regular updates, meets expectations, free downloads' sound familiar? Yeah. That feature might have been overlooked my M$.

'The comfortable choice':Gee, do i buy the cheap sh_tty 'Basic' edition, the moderate 'Home' edition, or the 'Pro' edition, or the expensive 'Ultimate' edition?

'Works with more software and devices': cough cough WINE cough cough

</rant>

I'm sorry if you have seen this before, I know that this has been already posted, but as I said before, I want word of this bullsh_t to get out.

http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2009/09/microsoft-teaches-best-buy-employees-how-to-troll-linux-users.ars

[Ms_Angel_D]

um ok

[Sealbhach]

We saw it and most people were very annoyed. There's a thread somewhere about it.

.

[overdrank]

Threads merged.

[clonne4crw]

Uh. Oh. Looks like something funny happened when the threads merged. Sorry!

[mdsmedia]

Which is obnoxious and overbearing. He's a dude getting paid $8 an hour to sell what people tell him to sell, and you take it upon yourself to "make a point" to him and get in his face about it? He probably doesn't care at all about other people's opinions of Linux. He's just trying to get through his day at work so he can get a paycheck. You're taking up time that he could be using to help customers with a "counter-offensive" "re-education" campaign that will do nothing but annoy some poor sap who just wants to go on his lunch break.
Sounds like a lot of sales staff, these days...and I'm not really blaming the sales staff as much as the big retailers. What ever happened to customer service and staff training, and staff actually knowing what they're talking about, rather than just getting numbers off the shelf?

I understand where you're coming from, but that's really not MY problem, it's the problem of the employer having people on the floor who really don't know what they're talking about. Maybe if they paid their staff more, and trained them better, the "poor sap" wouldn't have me to worry about. I'd actually be getting what I am paying for.

You seem to forget that it's the customers who pay the guy's wages. They're not just there to annoy the "poor" staff.

What if someone asked you if a piece of hardware worked with FreeBSD? You wouldn't have much to respond with either. (If you're familiar with FreeBSD, substitute it with any OS that you're not familiar with - the point remains the same).
I don't work as a salesperson selling computer hardware. I'm an accountant and I can get sued if I give the wrong advice. If I don't know something I tell the client that I'll find out. I don't just give them the most convenient answer.

[schauerlich]

Sounds like a lot of sales staff, these days...and I'm not really blaming the sales staff as much as the big retailers. What ever happened to customer service and staff training, and staff actually knowing what they're talking about, rather than just getting numbers off the shelf?

So what do you propose? Best Buy should train all of their minimum wage employees on Linux usage and have them memorize what accessories are compatible with Linux? Good luck.

I understand where you're coming from, but that's really not MY problem, it's the problem of the employer having people on the floor who really don't know what they're talking about.

Maybe you should work at Best Buy.

Maybe if they paid their staff more, and trained them better, the "poor sap" wouldn't have me to worry about. I'd actually be getting what I am paying for.

I don't know where to start with this. I think you've lost touch with what it's like to be a "worker bee".

You seem to forget that it's the customers who pay the guy's wages. They're not just there to annoy the "poor" staff.

Most customers aren't. And a lot of the staff are "poor", they're getting paid $8 an hour (if they're lucky) at a probably part time job.


I don't work as a salesperson selling computer hardware. I'm an accountant and I can get sued if I give the wrong advice. If I don't know something I tell the client that I'll find out. I don't just give them the most convenient answer.

You probably went to college for your job. Most of these kids are either putting themselves through college, or aren't planning on attending.

[tsali]

If you buy a retail package its 30 days of phone installation support I believe

That's correct. After the thirty days, you have a combination of free or pay-per-incident.

Windows OEM is expected to be supported by the manufacturer of the machine, therefore, if YOU are the manufacturer of your machine and you purchase an OEM copy, you'll have to pay for all incidents.

My point is that it's available at all. There doesn't appear to be an equivalent in Red Hat, SUSE or Ubuntu.

Many people like the "stand behind your product" model as opposed to the "your on your own" model.

That's ok for them. There's nothing wrong with it.

I've toyed with the idea of of starting a commercial help desk for Ubuntu and major distributions, but I think it would have trouble because the folks with gumption enough to use any flavor of linux to start with are probably folks with enough wherewithal to chase down their own answers (like me) OR they are so cheap or poor that they wouldn't pay for help.

Remote desktop and broadband makes remote help fairly easy.

[mdsmedia]

So what do you propose? Best Buy should train all of their minimum wage employees on Linux usage and have them memorize what accessories are compatible with Linux? Good luck.



Maybe you should work at Best Buy.



I don't know where to start with this. I think you've lost touch with what it's like to be a "worker bee".



Most customers aren't. And a lot of the staff are "poor", they're getting paid $8 an hour (if they're lucky) at a probably part time job.




You probably went to college for your job. Most of these kids are either putting themselves through college, or aren't planning on attending.
I didn't lose touch with anything. I just don't accept the crap that is presented to me.

Just because these kids aren't paid well, I don't just expect to walk into Best Buy, take what they tell me, buy what they tell me, and walk away, simply because these "poor sods" aren't trained to do their job.

Yes, I went to college to perform my job properly. Most of what I learned at college didn't make a difference to customer service, though. If I didn't know something, because there's no way of knowing everything, I'd tell them I'll find out.

As I said, I don't blame the sales staff. But I do expect a bit better knowledge of their job, of what they are claiming to have knowledge of.

You criticise me for expecting someone who claims some sort of knowledge to have that sort of knowledge. If they don't then that reflects on their employer. Don't give me a hard time because I expect something of someone who's selling me something that I'm paying for. Don't give me a hard time because I'll expect to receive the information about the product I'm paying for, just because these "poor sods" don't have the education that I expect from someone I'm buying these products from.

You tell me I'm losing touch. Maybe it's the retailers who are losing touch. Should I just accept what I'm told or given by the "worker bees"?

I worked through college. I worked through High School. Does that mean that what is presented should simply be accepted, simply because these "poor sods" are working through school? I should take everything that is sold, simply because the salesman is underpaid?

[P4man]

I've toyed with the idea of of starting a commercial help desk for Ubuntu and major distributions

Remote desktop and broadband makes remote help fairly easy.

Yep. thats why Im praying for crossloop support for linux, or a linux crossloop clone.

Of course, you could also make your own distribution with a preset remote desktop/ssh/freeNX config, box it and sell it for $50 with free installation support and say 1 hour free application support, the rest pay per hour. You wouldn't have difficulty finding geeks willing to offer linux support for a small fee as in crossloop.

[schauerlich]

You criticise me for expecting someone who claims some sort of knowledge to have that sort of knowledge.

They don't claim to have knowledge about Linux, which is why most of them don't.

I should take everything that is sold, simply because the salesman is underpaid?

You shouldn't berate them as if they should be experts in their field when they're nowhere near that status.

[Dalek Draco ON LINUX]

Okay for those of you who don't keep up with developments in the tech world, Microsoft has started pushing its retailers to get their employees brainwashed by Microsoft's newest piece of propaganda, a Windows vs Mac/Linux test. Seen here: http://www.ditii.com/2009/09/08/microsoft-linux-vs-windows-7-slideshow-for-retailers-targets-linux/ Now what is wrong with this you ask? Oh **** you shouldn't have asked that... 1. Slide number 2 states 'linux is safer than windows: INCORRECT'. Okay, so an Operating System that is built upon unix (which has been shown countless times to be more secure than Windows) and which is opensource (thus allowing EVERYONE AND ANYONE to check the coding and make sure its safe, stable and secure) is not safer than an OS that allows anyone with half a brain to hack it, and releases MAJOR SECURITY FIXES EVERY 10 SECONDS???? I don't run an anti-malware program on linux, because I don't need to. I have an anti-malware program, an online scanner, and many other tools on my windows partition to protect the weak system. 2. Slide 3 states 'linux is easy to learn and will meet customer expectations about the things they can do with their PC. Myth: correct. help documentation is limited' Okay now that is just a huge load of ****. First and foremost, I learnt how to use linux (as in being able to take my laptop to uni and use it to take lecture notes, download my lecture powerpoint slides, etc) WITHIN AN HOUR. Linux comes with openoffice (the free alternative to Microsoft Office) inbuilt (you dont need to install it, its ready to run!). The layout of linux is admittedly different to Windows, and takes some getting used to, however I now find it EASIER to use than the complex 'where the **** is that admin tool that changes xyz' that is Windows. Finally, help documentation is limited? Okay...I phoned Microsoft for support (after emailing them and being told that my query required over-the-phone support) and was told (after being on hold for over an hour) that I was not able to be helped because my anti-virus program may have been causing the conflict (turned out it wasnt but there you go). In STARK CONTRAST....I have just posted on the linux ubuntu forums a query...a successful and useful reply (that solved my problem) was posted.....8 minutes later (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=7940699#post7940699). 3. Slide 5. A chart lying about everything generally. I won't even bother countering the ******** there. I'll just point out the laughable hypocrisy in Microsoft stating that Windows Live Essentials is a FREE download (and that Linux can't download it). FREE??? FREE??? Linux prides itself on being free, whereas Microsoft charges you to breathe. 4. Slide 6. Oh dear...Microsoft listed all the reasons why NOT to get Windows over Linux. 5. Slide 8 linux updates and upgrades are easy. face: incorrect. Linux can take a lot of time to maintain. For example Ubuntu (a version of linux) may have hundred of updates a month Number one, Linux updates ARE easy, update manager pops up, you press install updates. Voila'. Simple. Hundres of updates a month? Well...there are lots of little updates, loads of them. They are not security updates though, they are to increase compatibility, to add new features, and to make it easier to run. Whereas all of Microsofts updates are HUGE GAPING SECURITY FLAWS BEING PATCHED UP. time for lunch...

[staf0048]

I heard this and thought it was funny. What's interesting though is that I don't know of any retailers (besides Dell) that are selling Linux based computers. All the retailers in my area have all switched their netbooks to XP. It's a bit strange that MS is spending it's marketing $$ on "educating" salespeople on why their customers should not use a system they cannot buy.

[Ms_Angel_D]

ummm I really am having a hard time reading that, how about breaking it up into paragraphs....

[hoppipolla]

ummm I really am having a hard time reading that, how about breaking it up into paragraphs....

Yeah heh, it's a proper wall of text :)

[Giant Speck]

First of all, :facepalm: @ your username.

Second, :facepalm: @ your unreadable wall of text.

[HappinessNow]

ummm i really am having a hard time reading that, how about breaking it up into paragraphs....+1

[lukjad007]

ummm i really am having a hard time reading that, how about breaking it up into paragraphs....
+1

[hockeytux]

ummm I really am having a hard time reading that, how about breaking it up into paragraphs....

Sometimesthesethingsaredoneonpurposesoyoushowsomes ortofrebelliousnessagainstwhatevermaybeheisoneofth esekindsofpeopleiveneverunderstoodwhypeoplehavetom assacrelanguageiftheywouldliketomakeapoint. Maybe the whole first post could be edited an put into nice paragraphs...Thanks :) :popcorn:

[silvestros]

I can say only one thing seeing this Microsoft's presentation:
Microsoft is afraid of Linux !!

[Frak]

I can say only one thing seeing this Microsoft's presentation:
Microsoft is afraid of Linux !!
Good marketing != fear

Yes, it's good marketing. Somebody before me said that you wouldn't mention your competitor if they were superior. Well, Linux musn't be superior in this case since Microsoft had no problem creating a 10-page PowerPoint presentation to explain why they rock Linux in 34-different ways.

[presence1960]

You can hardly blame MS for trying. But ahm.. why not a counter offensive?

If some motivated linux advocates feel like preparing and giving a "ubuntu" sales pitch or training to bestbuy and other employees, it would be more productive.

In general I kind miss some "marketing" material for ubuntu. Something like a single A4 paper or a short (1-5 min) videoclip that shows what ubuntu is (and what it isn't) and why someone might want to consider it.

Putting it here:
http://spreadubuntu.neomenlo.org/

would be a good start.

Any takers ? :)

Linux does not care how many people use it. The Linux zealots are the ones who perpetuate that image. Linux is there for those who choose to use it. PERIOD. END OF DISCUSSION.

When will you all stop putting your perceptions into this and making it into something it is not.

I love Linux but really I do not care if another person ever decides to use Linux. I use it because I choose to use it. if someone wants help with Linux I will gladly try to help. But that is the extent of it because I know and understand that this "war" between Microsoft and Linux as far as market share is irrelevant. People make it into what it is and give it all the meaning.

[aysiu]

Linux does not care how many people use it. Of course not. Linux is only a kernel.

NT or Windows also does not care how many people use it. Microsoft does, however.

Ubuntu is designed to take marketshare away from Windows, so it's only natural for a lot of people involved in Ubuntu (not presence1960, of course) to care about how many people use it.

From Bug #1 on Launchpad (https://launchpad.net/bugs/): Microsoft has a majority market share in the new desktop PC marketplace.
This is a bug, which Ubuntu is designed to fix.

Non-free software is holding back innovation in the IT industry, restricting access to IT to a small part of the world's population and limiting the ability of software developers to reach their full potential, globally. This bug is widely evident in the PC industry.

Steps to repeat:

1. Visit a local PC store.

What happens:
2. Observe that a majority of PCs for sale have non-free software pre-installed.
3. Observe very few PCs with Ubuntu and free software pre-installed.

What should happen:
1. A majority of the PCs for sale should include only free software like Ubuntu.
2. Ubuntu should be marketed in a way such that its amazing features and benefits would be apparent and known by all.
3. The system shall become more and more user friendly as time passes.

[Unterseeboot_234]

Apparently, the slideshow works for training BestBuy employees. I was in the market to set up a 5-workstation LAN. I walked into BestBuy and was impressed with the cheap HP desktops running Vista. I asked the sales clerk if I could boot the Ubuntu LiveCD to see how Linux runs.

"NO, that will void the warranty on our computers."

WTF?? Is there anybody I can ask about trying this CD? "You might try Service", the clerk said.

I marched up to the Service Counter and asked and got what I expected from a counter representative that fills in paperwork and gives refunds ... "No".

I later used Fry's Electronics, they let me have the try-out and the price I wanted. Microsoft, as far as I'm concerned, royally screwed BestBuy in my case.

[aysiu]

Microsoft, as far as I'm concerned, royally screwed BestBuy in my case. You're not really part of their target demographic.

Both Best Buy and Microsoft thrive on consumers who have a lot of money to spend and who know very little about computers. If they can sell the super premium professional edition of Windows 7 with the latest Microsoft Office, Norton Antivirus, and gaming rig specs... to someone who just wants to surf the web and use a word processor, then they're happy, and the customer is totally ignorant of being ripped off.

There are many of these types of consumers out there, and BB and MS can make billions of dollars off those folks, so it's worth it for them to **** off the occasional "Can I run a live CD on this?" Linux user, who will probably get a computer from Frye's or from an online store anyway.

[mdsmedia]

They don't claim to have knowledge about Linux, which is why most of them don't.



You shouldn't berate them as if they should be experts in their field when they're nowhere near that status.
The only one berating anyone is you. I never said anything about berating them. You seem to have come to that conclusion on your own.

I berated the big retailers for the general decline in customer service, in favour of lower paid minions to push more units off the shelves, whatever the "cost".

[Chame_Wizard]

the super premium professional edition of Windows 7 with the latest Microsoft Office, Norton Antivirus, and gaming rig specs
Whahaha LOL at this.:P

[Frak]

If they can sell the super premium professional edition of Windows 7 with the latest Microsoft Office, Norton Antivirus, and gaming rig specs... to someone who just wants to surf the web and use a word processor, then they're happy, and the customer is totally ignorant of being ripped off.

In good news, they can find the ten-billionth decimal of Pi in under a minute :D

[clonne4crw]

Apparently, the slideshow works for training BestBuy employees. I was in the market to set up a 5-workstation LAN. I walked into BestBuy and was impressed with the cheap HP desktops running Vista. I asked the sales clerk if I could boot the Ubuntu LiveCD to see how Linux runs.

"NO, that will void the warranty on our computers."

WTF?? Is there anybody I can ask about trying this CD? "You might try Service", the clerk said.

I marched up to the Service Counter and asked and got what I expected from a counter representative that fills in paperwork and gives refunds ... "No".

I later used Fry's Electronics, they let me have the try-out and the price I wanted. Microsoft, as far as I'm concerned, royally screwed BestBuy in my case.

That's why you don't ask. You just do it.

[hoppipolla]

Wow they're just flat-out lies! Some things they say don't even bear any resemblance to the truth =S

That is mad o.O

[P4man]

Linux does not care how many people use it.

Im sure it doesn't. Its only software. However, as a Linux user, *I* do care. For selfish reasons, I might add. The bigger the linux userbase, the better chance there is that hardware vendors and software vendors start paying attention. That means better driver support, more testing and compatible bios, better and more software (flash, itunes, games,..). Thats why I care, and perhaps, you should too. With 1 or 2% marketshare, OEMs and ISV's can ignore this market completely and not notice it at all. Should it ever get around 10% or so like Mac, then they won't. It would pay off for them to invest at least a bit in linux.

Thats not to say I want to force linux down anyone's throat, but id sure like people at least being aware of the alternatives so they can chose freely.

[presence1960]

NT or Windows also does not care how many people use it. Microsoft does, however.

Ubuntu is designed to take marketshare away from Windows, so it's only natural for a lot of people involved in Ubuntu (not presence1960, of course) to care about how many people use it.



If Ubuntu is designed to take marketshare away from Microsoft then Canonical and Mr. Mark Shuttleworth should be doing that, not the end users.

In my opinion if Ubuntu is trying to take marketshare away it is failing miserably.

If Canonical and Mr. Shuttleworth want to take marketshare away from Windows then that job should be left in Canonical's hands rather than dragging the end user into the foray.

I still stand by my words. I do not care if another person chooses to use Linux. Just as I have made the choice to use it (Ubuntu 9.04 & Sabayon 4.1) I have to respect someone else's choice(s) even if they choose something I really dislike (Microsoft). If I don't honor that then my choice itself is invalid or incorrect. Choice and freedom to choose. LET MARKETING & PROPAGANDA BE HANDLED BY THOSE BETTER QUALIFIED.

P.S. as far as the terms Windows & Linux- we can play semantics aysiu, but I know you know what I meant. But anyway I stand corrected, I should have said canonical & microsoft. Hopefully we are all happy now. I know I am because it is not my responsibility to help overtake microsoft. We have a free market in the USA. Even though I despise microsoft they got where they are legitimately and with hard work. If windows is that evil why do most people use it? I don't buy into the "it comes preinstalled" logic, that is such a lame excuse. That is bolderdash because all browsers have a search function. That is how I found linux. See I disliked windows enough to pursue an alternative, that was my choice. Others are not at that point and no matter what we try to do most people aren't concerned about whether they use windows or mac or linux. They just want their machine to allow them to do what they want to do on it. And Windows allows a vast majority of users to do exactly that. You aren't going to sway that crowd, there is no motive for them to change.

In ending I would like to say I love Linux and would be tickled if more people use it. But I have the serenity to know I can't do that and should not do it. It is an individual choice and I respect that just as I wish my choice to be respected.

[staf0048]

If windows is that evil why do most people use it? I don't buy into the "it comes preinstalled" logic, that is such a lame excuse. That is bolderdash because all browsers have a search function. That is how I found linux. See I disliked windows enough to pursue an alternative, that was my choice.

Agreed!!! While I find some MS marketing tactics humorous, they've made many good business decisions. The fact that the majority of people equate Windows with computers, shows just how well the MS machine works.

I tend to disagree with you on who should market Linux/Ubuntu. Yes, it's Canonical's product, but it's also a community effort. Therefore, I see nothing wrong with having users promote the system to increase market share if they wish too. However, we are not communists, and if users want to leave well enough alone, so be it.

Freedom is the key, and I'll defend my brother's freedoms to the ends of the Earth even if it's not "popular"

[presence1960]

I tend to disagree with you on who should market Linux/Ubuntu. Yes, it's Canonical's product, but it's also a community effort. Therefore, I see nothing wrong with having users promote the system to increase market share if they wish too. However, we are not communists, and if users want to leave well enough alone, so be it.

Freedom is the key, and I'll defend my brother's freedoms to the ends of the Earth even if it's not "popular"
I can live with that!! And I choose to not care if anyone else uses Linux. If someone wants help I will gladly help. I have installed it on at least 8 or 10 friends machines. Not because I "marketed" it, but because when they were over my house they saw Ubuntu and Sabayon and asked me about it. I am more of the belief of freedom, choice and the principle of attraction rather than promotion.

But you guys/gals can do what you want. I voice my opinion and you voice yours. In the end we should respect each others opinions. We can disagree without killing each other.

And I will still refer aysiu's pychocats site to people because it is a great site. That is what I am talking about when I say respect each other in spite of our differing opinion. In the last analysis we all (myself at the top of the list) need to have fun and not take ourselves so seriously.

[aysiu]

If Ubuntu is designed to take marketshare away from Microsoft then Canonical and Mr. Mark Shuttleworth should be doing that, not the end users. Why can't the end users? Not all end users are mandated to market Ubuntu, but if some end users want to market Ubuntu, why should you stop them from doing so, just because you yourself do not want to market Ubuntu?


If Canonical and Mr. Shuttleworth want to take marketshare away from Windows then that job should be left in Canonical's hands rather than dragging the end user into the foray. Again, why? No one is "dragging" end users into it. End users themselves are volunteering.

I still stand by my words. I do not care if another person chooses to use Linux. Your original words were actually Linux does not care how many people use it.

If you do not care, then that's fine. To say Linux doesn't care makes no sense. If you're talking about the kernel, it can't care about anything, of course. And if you're talking about the people who produce Linux, well, then that's not always the case. Some people who develop Linux and its supporting forms and applications care about marketshare; others don't.

Just as I have made the choice to use it (Ubuntu 9.04 & Sabayon 4.1) I have to respect someone else's choice(s) even if they choose something I really dislike (Microsoft). Same here. I don't berate people for using Windows. I believe people should use whatever suits them best. If I don't honor that then my choice itself is invalid or incorrect. Choice and freedom to choose. LET MARKETING & PROPAGANDA BE HANDLED BY THOSE BETTER QUALIFIED. How do you know what qualifications people have? Being a forum member does not necessarily preclude qualification for marketing.

We have a free market in the USA. Even though I despise microsoft they got where they are legitimately and with hard work. You're wrong on both counts. We do not have a free market. We have a lot of corporations (like Microsoft) that bully other companies, and they have the expensive lawyers and lobbying power to have the courts back them up. If you really believe Microsoft got to where it is now through only legitimately hard work in a free market, you should read up on the history of Microsoft.

If windows is that evil why do most people use it? Well, it isn't technical merit. It's vendor lock-in and proprietary formats. I'll give you some examples.
1. My mother-in-law uses for her a work a badly designed website that has full functionality only with Internet Explorer 7 or higher. So Mac OS X is out. Linux is out.
2. My school uses Microsoft OneNote extensively. Mac OS X is out. Linux is out.
3. Many of my friends and co-workers have iPhones or iPod Touches. Linux is out.

Now in those three examples, it isn't that Linux is technically incapable of having Internet Explorer ported to it--it's that Microsoft has not ported IE to Linux (or Mac) and Microsoft has not made IE standards-compliant. Likewise, both Mac and Linux are technically capable of running OneNote... as long as Microsoft ports it to those platforms. Obviously it's in Microsoft's best interests to keep OneNote users locked into Windows.

And Apple will never port iTunes to Linux (as long as Linux remains under 40% of the consumer market), and Apple goes out of its way to make it difficult for AmaroK and Rhythmbox developers to make iPhones and iPod Touches work with native Linux applications.

In a real free market, all applications would be on all major platforms and create files in open formats. That's not how things are now, though. And a lot of people are willing to sacrifice long-term freedoms for short-term ones. They'll take the DRM or proprietary file format now to get immediate commercial functionality but then not have any freedom to ultimately choose what platform they want to run software on.

And, of course preinstallation is a huge factor in this. If it weren't, Microsoft wouldn't strong-arm all the non-Apple OEMs into preinstalling Windows on computers.

[presence1960]

In response to aysiu's above post, forgot to use quote.

preinstallation can be uninstalled or made to dual boot, so that is really a non-factor. Most people who use windows really have no reason to migrate to linux as either their sole OS or a dual boot.

You have your opinions and I have mine. hopefully we both can live with that and respect that.

That being said I think it fruitless for us to continue this debate (unless you feel it necessary). In spite of our differences in opinions I still think you are one of the best assets this community has. And in the end that is all that really matters to me. If you want to try to overtake MS by "marketing" Linux I say go ahead, but I certainly will not be doing so. I was only stating my viewpoints as I read everyone else's views on this. In the end it would be better if we not take ourself so seriously. In the grand scheme of things which OS I use is very, very insignificant compared to what life is really about.

[staf0048]

You know what I love most about Linux? Really passionate people. Seriously. In all my MS days, I never ran into a group of people so emotionally invested in their system and such strong defenders of the underlying philosophy as Linux users. It's great!!!

That said, if you want to promote Linux. Great! If you see something here that you want to share with the rest of the world then by all means, tell the world. Just know that some will not listen no matter how logical your reasons may be to you.

And again, if you don't wnat to promote Linux. Great! Proselytizing can be quite annoying.

And No, the US does not have a free market economy. We have a managed economy - but consumers are still free to choose, and businesses are still free to make decisions based on profitability - barring illegal activity of course.

[P4man]

Well, it isn't technical merit. It's vendor lock-in and proprietary formats. I'll give you some examples.
1. My mother-in-law uses for her a work a badly designed website that has full functionality only with Internet Explorer 7 or higher. So Mac OS X is out. Linux is out.
2. My school uses Microsoft OneNote extensively. Mac OS X is out. Linux is out.
3. Many of my friends and co-workers have iPhones or iPod Touches. Linux is out.

I don't entirely disagree, but I wouldn't put any of those as the prime reason for the current lockin. After all, its Apple's merit they sell so many iphones and ipods, and if they want to tie that with their own OS and 1 alternative, thats their choice. Its not like you can't buy any other phones or MP3 players. Similar story with IE only websites, some credit has to go to MS for creating easy tools that developers use to build those IE only websites.

My biggest beef is with the stranglehold MS has over OEMs. OEMs are not free to ship their machines with whatever software they or their customers want. I'll give you one example: why does no single OEM that im aware off, preinstall OpenOffice? You might argue MS Office is better, but there is no arguing OO is better than no office or works or a 30 day trial. If its not MS threatening to hurt the OEM's rebates, then why doesn't any oem do this?

You see, where I live, its impossible to find computers with Linux preinstalled even if you look for it (trust me, I did). Its even next to impossible to buy a computer without OS at all, you are forced to buy a windows license whether or not you need it. Then you got to beg and plead to get a refund, and that, in my case, would literally mean I would have to ship my Acer laptop back to acer at my expense just to have windows removed. It would cost me €60 in shipping and 2 weeks of no laptop use to recover €60 from the windows license. One might as well make windows free and collect a tax on every sale of a computer and give it to MS, it would be the same thing. This is simply not a free or competitive market, its a market dominated by a monopolist that forces windows down our throats.

[NightwishFan]

I just paid a visit to Best (worst) Buy to try out Mac OS X Snow Leopard. While trying one out, I overheard an older lady saying she just wants a simple computer to do web browsing, email, and to create invitations.

A young salesman pointed her to a "Mac". You will never ever have security problems or viruses on a Mac. The applications are much higher quality on a Mac. It will work for everything you need! She probably never even heard of a Mac.

He went on to say: "This (the most expensive one) is the one I use at home. (Thanks to your commission ripping people off selling Macs?) The lady seemed not very interested, but I could tell she was buying into his crap.

I think Windows personally would have been better for her. Or even better, Linux. If a Mac could fit her requirements, Ubuntu could at a much more reasonable price, and less bother.

I am not sure if the lady bought the Mac, but she probably did. As was said before, she was the target demographic.

Even just looking at the Macs had 3 salesmen run rabid telling me why they are so much better than anything else. I was happy to tell them otherwise.

Also, it was the first time I ever tried a Mac. My opinion is that they are a bit annoying to use. I expected them to be very cool actually, but I did not like it. The window management is terrible. Performance is alright, but I bet it does not equal a modern Linux at the kernel level. I also could not figure out how to easily run standalone applications. It turns out there is an applications "folder". It had a few very high quality apps, such as dictionaries though.

[TheNosh]

I think Windows personally would have been better for her. Or even better, Linux. If a Mac could fit her requirements, Ubuntu could at a much more reasonable price, and less bother.

why would Ubuntu be better? it's certainly cheaper, but i wouldn't exactly call it simpler. for someone who wants something to just work linux isn't that great a choice. linux has lots of options and frankly that's one of the reasons i like it so much, but options = complications to those who don't want to know much about how the computer works, and that's the demographic that wants it to "just work".

I bet it does not equal a modern Linux at the kernel level.

and how might i ask do you figure this? the kernel is a combination of BSD and Mach. do you have any information stating that these are less than equal to the linux kernel? i know the BSD devs have an excellent reputation for writing good, clean code.

[NightwishFan]

I already stated it was my opinion, and I have no intention of searching for useless and scientifically unreliable benchmarks to be regarded as fact. Consider my post to be 'incorrect' if it makes you feel better.

It is also my opinion that Ubuntu is easier to use. However it is definitely fact that it is much less expensive.

I am quite sure that the lady had probably only used Windows in the past. She did not seem to understand the Macs. The machine was to be used by her grandchildren, and her for simple things. A simple Windows laptop, where the grandchildren would probably be familiar and have the ability to play games would be more appropriate.

If the Mac would have been sufficient, then Ubuntu could have fit the role as well.

[TheNosh]

I already stated it was my opinion, and I have no intention of searching for useless and scientifically unreliable benchmarks to be regarded as fact. Consider my post to be 'incorrect' if it makes you feel better. i'm not out to argue, nor am i out to call you incorrect, i was simply wondering if you had read anything to that effect as i would be interested to see such an article, my understanding of the development of both systems is different from yours, there's nothing wrong with that.

It is also my opinion that Ubuntu is easier to use. However it is definitely fact that it is much less expensive. for me it's easier to use as well, but mac has official support which for a lot of casual users is very important. we have a forum, but if the forum can't solve it you're just kinda out of luck.

I am quite sure that the lady had probably only used Windows in the past. She did not seem to understand the Macs. The machine was to be used by her grandchildren, and her for simple things. A simple Windows laptop, where the grandchildren would probably be familiar and have the ability to play games would be more appropriate. this part i completely agree with, pushing the new and unusual on those who have no interest in it is not a good practice.

If the Mac would have been sufficient, then Ubuntu could have fit the role as well.this part i disagree with, but that is just my opinion.

(and by the way, i don't personally like macs much at all, this is based mostly on what the least computer savvy people i know find easier. i've tried macs, and i don't much like the interface, and finder pisses me off)

[coldReactive]

I finally sat down and wrote a complaint to Microsoft through their technical support line, lol.

http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2009/09/microsoft-teaches-best-buy-employees-how-to-troll-linux-users.ars

Linux is free to download itself in almost all the cases. Linux is more secure than windows because people are allowed to patch it themselves due to the open-source portion of Linux. The only reason why you'd say Linux is not free, is because you compare it to old versions or RedHat. Dell already has some computers pre-installed with Linux, however, with some hacks by the manufacturer. The main reason you trash linux is because of compatibility. Ever heard of Pushing your product onto people? No? Well, that's what you did several years back, and I loathe that choice. Most linux updates are easy through update managers provided by the distro you choose (IE: APT for Ubuntu, etc.) But you say otherwise. Linux is obviously safer than windows, not just because people can patch issues immediately, but because fewer programs use it, and far less people use it. Most people use Windows, and this is why Windows has so many trojans, viruses, etc. made for it! And of course, Linux is slightly harder to learn because Linux wasn't mainstream... no, you are mainstream, and that's why people think Windows is much easier to use. For Goddess' Sake, get down off your proud stallion and face Linux like you mean it, not with this trolling junk! Sure, Linux users may troll you, but have you seen an advert on TV that bashes Windows from the linux community? No? I sure haven't.

I'm going to try and buy Revolution OS... that documentary starring all those cool guys. Just to get back at you.

Might be incorrect in some places, but I don't care really.

[buckrodgers]

Microsoft Instructs Best Buy Employees on How to Trash Linux

http://www.dailytech.com/Microsoft+Instructs+Best+Buy+Employees+on+How+to+T rash+Linux/article16195.htm

[-grubby]

You're a couple years late.

[buckrodgers]

What do you think about it ?

How linux users should react ?

Cheers

[-grubby]

Well, quite frankly, I don't really care.

Anyways, here's another thread on this: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1261346

[HappyFeet]

How linux users should react ?

Boycott MS products.

[overdrank]

Threads merged :)

[juancarlospaco]

Why so many people talking about "Microsoft"???
i Googled Microsoft forums and no one speak about Ubuntu there...

:)