How is Linux suppose to compete against Mac OS X?

[Revolutionary101]

Many people love Linux more than Windows but Windows is not the only competitor out there. When you compare Windows and Linux the choice is clear because Linux performs better, zero viruses, and free. Although when you compare Linux to Mac OS X the choice isn't as obvious because the only thing that makes Linux better in my mind is its openness to free software and open source. Most of the performance and viruses problems people have with Windows are not as abundant on Mac OS X because Mac OS X is based off of Unix. When Linux gains a larger foothold on the OS market (im talking more than 5%) how will Linux be able to compete with Mac OS X?

[oboedad55]

Many people love Linux more than Windows but Windows is not the only competitor out there. When you compare Windows and Linux the choice is clear because Linux performs better, zero viruses, and free. Although when you compare Linux to Mac OS X the choice isn't as obvious because the only thing that makes Linux better in my mind is its openness to free software and open source. Most of the performance and viruses problems people have with Windows are not as abundant on Mac OS X because Mac OS X is based off of Unix. When Linux gains a larger foothold on the OS market (im talking more than 5%) how will Linux be able to compete with Mac OS X?

I ran a Mac with OSX for several years and had more problems with it than I've had with Linux. Apple support was no help at all. I know that the worst case scenario with Linux is that I keep my /home directory backed up and reinstall the OS. Not so with the Mac.

[nitelite]

Easy, We just unleash the secret weapon. :D

[Revolutionary101]

Easy, We just unleash the secret weapon. :D

Yeah but what is that secret weapon?

[nitelite]

The Mac in the next room to me is pretty amazing, it costs around £3000 new not long ago.

But it only comes into its own for professional music editing and design work. other than

that the hardware specs are top notch.

The customisation is hilariously dreadful, that's why most effort is put into producing good

wallpaper. One of these days I will wipe it over with Linux.

[bowens44]

Yeah but what is that secret weapon?

If we told you that, it wouldn't be a secret, would it?

[mechdave]

Yeah but what is that secret weapon?

If we told you that we would have to kill you ;)

[Revolutionary101]

The Mac in the next room to me is pretty amazing, it costs around £3000 new not long ago.

But it only comes into its own for professional music editing and design work. other than

that the hardware specs are top notch.

The customisation is hilariously dreadful, that's why most effort is put into producing good

wallpaper. One of these days I will wipe it over with Linux.

But is that Mac yours? I don't think you should wipe it over with Linux if it is not yours. I know I would be angry if someone took my Mac and wiped it and put Linux on it even if Linux is better.

[DeadSuperHero]

Honestly, after reading that long article on Ars reviewing Snow Leopard, I can only say three things:

-Grand Central Dispatch method of memory management.

-Improve compilers, toolkits, APIs, documentation, etc.

-Usability studies and testing for desktop environments. The 100 Papercuts is a good start, and I think over time distributions such as Ubuntu will continue to improve in this respect.

[mechdave]

This is why a MAC will never out do a Linux machine...
Mac book Pro from AU $1800

Same spec MSI Laptop VR602 1.6G CPU 2GB RAM 160GB HDD AU $785
Install Linux on laptop... Free
Send Vista back to Microsoft for refund on OS... AU $Not Sure
The fuzzy warm feeling you get with using open source... Priceless

The MAC has in my opinion always been over priced for what you get...
Bring on the same hardware cheaper and install your choice of OS when you want and how you want...

[Revolutionary101]

I personally think that the Linux has already beat Windows in the performance and security and the only thing holding Linux back is market acceptance. I think now the Linux community needs to think "How can I make Linux better than Mac OS X?". With Apple developers releasing things like Grand Central Dispatch and OpenCL in Snow Leopard I think that the Linux community needs to concentrate on developing things that could meet or exceed those things.

[juancarlospaco]

How to setup an OS X to be a Router for Free, just like my Vyatta...?
How to deploy my Cloud Computing on my Snow Leopard, just like my Ubuntu...?
How to DeBootStrap an Snow Leopard, just like my Ubuntu...?

:)

[Revolutionary101]

How to setup an OS X to be a Router for Free, just like my Vyatta...?
How to deploy my Cloud Computing on my Snow Leopard, just like my Ubuntu...?
How to DeBootStrap an Snow Leopard, just like my Ubuntu...?

:)

That might be good things that people like us are interested in but the average consumer has no use for these things.

[issih]

By being different......

All OSes excell at different things.

[juancarlospaco]

but the average consumer has no use for these things.

How to install OS X on any Hardware that i want to use/buy.
How to Virtualize OS X on any Hardware that i want to use/buy.
How to get MobileMe for Free, just like my UbuntuOne.

This is something that the average consumer has use for

:)

[lukeiamyourfather]

The question represents a very narrow minded view of the subject. You don't see hundreds of thousands of machines in a single entity running OS X, no, they run Linux at that scale (Google for example). Is there a single system in the Top 500 list that runs OS X? Nope, but 443 (or 86%) of the 500 run Linux (http://www.top500.org/stats/list/33/osfam).

I'm pretty sure the fate of Linux rests safely in good hands and will continue to thrive for decades to come regardless of what Apple does. Cheers!

[Revolutionary101]

The question represents a very narrow minded view of the subject. You don't see hundreds of thousands of machines in a single entity running OS X, no, they run Linux at that scale (Google for example). Is there a single system in the Top 500 list that runs OS X? Nope, but 443 (or 86%) of the 500 run Linux (http://www.top500.org/stats/list/33/osfam).

I'm pretty sure the fate of Linux rests safely in good hands and will continue to thrive for decades to come regardless of what Apple does. Cheers!

Yes Linux will never go away I am not debating that but I am saying what would make the average consumer that knows very little about computers choose Linux over Mac OS X? Why would they want to use Linux when compared to Mac OS X?

[Bigtime_Scrub]

Linux has 2 things on Mac.
First of all is the price. Apple products are very expensive. Second is freedom to use your software and hardware however you like without being restricted to whatever Apple says you must use.


Really though I think the biggest thing Linux has on Mac is freedom although it is less tangible it is a solid argument. Apple in many ways is even more restrictive than Windows. You put Linux on just about any hard ware, Windows on most hardware and OSX on whatever Mac says.

[MikeTheC]

I love Linux, and I love the concept and spirit embodied in the philosophy of the F/OSS movement and in the GPL. There is absolutely ZERO question in my mind that F/OSS has benefited humanity already and in a significant (if not so noticeable) way. I also believe that F/OSS' long-term prospects are very good and desirable.

That all being said, however, Mac OS X as a platform represents an advantage insofar as certain usability aspects are concerned, and the fact that at a higher level it is fundamentally easier (or in some cases possible at all) to accomplish certain kinds of actually very useful and/or interesting tasks.

I believe the usability is better in the sense that Apple takes great pains to ensure all of the capabilities of the OS as delivered are handled, such as for instance sound device configuration and management. Trying to get multimedia input apps (sound recording, VOIP, A/V conferencing) to work properly in Linux requires navigating a veritable minefield of choices and unique configurations. Getting those same kinds of apps to work in Mac OS X involves installing those apps and, only in cases where you the user have added other sound hardware gear, picking the appropriate device to use with a given program.

Now, to be fair, Windows is an equal pain in the *** in this regard, and they at least have vendor-produced drivers for the different hardware to work with! Configuring Skype, for instance, in both Windows and Linux is a problematic pain in the ***. Setting up Skype on a Mac is essentially effortless.

What about remote desktop sharing? What about collaborative calendering? What about configuring file sharing? What about any of a myriad of little niggly bits like that? Now true, very experienced folk can do that, but even then, take a look at much of the methodology you use. Do you honestly believe it is obvious or intuitive? It's not a matter of "doing your research" or "doing due diligence" in terms of studying your OS. It's a matter of at the end of the day being able to intuitive and minimalistically set up these sorts of desirable and/or necessary things -- and likewise perform such kinds of tasks -- that Mac OS X clearly has over everyone else, not just Linux.

Now, the thing to take away from this is not that somehow Linux will never be on par with Mac OS X, but at the end of the day you have some kind of driving direction, like at Apple which, given their own design mantra, means a consistent, logical and fairly intuitive process to set stuff up that isn't just up and going "out of the box". F/OSS needs some leadership in these and other areas so that it can assume its rightful place. That also involves a degree of "cat herding" and that as much as anything else is what I feel is inducing the drag in Linux development which accounts for the true root cause of what the point of this thread is all about.

[MikeTheC]

Revolutionary101:

Is that avatar from the opening sequence in BotP/Gatchaman?

[Revolutionary101]

MikeTheC I loved your answer it was unbiased and great. Also I do agree with you for Linux to become more popular in the consumer market it needs to have standards. For example when I started using Ubuntu if I wanted to install a program that I downloaded off of a website, I was so confused. This is because their are programs that come compressed but they do not install easily (ex. tar files), also there were .bin files and .run files. In the end I found .deb files to be the easiest to install.

Also about my avatar, I don't know where it came from I just found it in a search on Google images.

[matsuzine]

I'm running ubuntu on a very low-specs machine, using jwm and some lightweight apps it runs like lightning. That's something OS X or windows can't do: make old hardware like new again with thousands of ways to configure it.

Macs are fast and beautiful b/c they're pretty high end machines. Get a linux machine with the same specs that's been pre-installed with everything working, and I would put it up against a mac any day...

[Revolutionary101]

I'm running ubuntu on a very low-specs machine, using jwm and some lightweight apps it runs like lightning. That's something OS X or windows can't do: make old hardware like new again with thousands of ways to configure it.

Macs are fast and beautiful b/c they're pretty high end machines. Get a linux machine with the same specs that's been pre-installed with everything working, and I would put it up against a mac any day...

If Apple let their support run longer and support more of their older machines you would see that Mac OS X can run on computers with very low specs. I have heard of people running Mac OS X Leopard on machines with 700 mhz processors.

[MikeTheC]

If Apple let their support run longer and support more of their older machines you would see that Mac OS X can run on computers with very low specs. I have heard of people running Mac OS X Leopard on machines with 700 mhz processors.

That's actually a logical fallacy, even though technically Leopard can be made to execute on any G4 Mac. It's also a false economy because there are any of a number of apps which either are hard-coded for certain minimum CPUs (and/or minimum system RAM) which won't run, or in theory would run but bottom out so badly there's no actual point in making the journey in the first place.

To the point of Leopard running on low end machines, there is basically a hack to do this, and the part which is what makes your statement "technically true" is a configuration file which the installer uses to know whether your Mac meets the minimums is modified. You can effectively drop the RAM requirement down to 0, and you can also do the same thing with CPU speed minimums.

However, remember that there are certain physical minimums you really can't get around, and honestly, I've run Leopard on some very low-spec'd Macs and I can tell you, first hand, that it isn't worth it.

Oh, and for the record, Leopard has some optimizations and specific executional requirements which make it incapable of (not restricted from) running on a G3 or older system.

[juancarlospaco]

How to Multi-Boot multiple versions of OS X ...?
How to use OS X from my USB flash drive ...?
How to Upgrade for Free my OS X ...?

[mdsmedia]

MikeTheC I loved your answer it was unbiased and great. Also I do agree with you for Linux to become more popular in the consumer market it needs to have standards. For example when I started using Ubuntu if I wanted to install a program that I downloaded off of a website, I was so confused. This is because their are programs that come compressed but they do not install easily (ex. tar files), also there were .bin files and .run files. In the end I found .deb files to be the easiest to install.

Also about my avatar, I don't know where it came from I just found it in a search on Google images.
The avatar looks like the cover of the Dark Side of the Moon album.

[lukeiamyourfather]

Yes Linux will never go away I am not debating that but I am saying what would make the average consumer that knows very little about computers choose Linux over Mac OS X? Why would they want to use Linux when compared to Mac OS X?

Call me crazy but the answer is pretty much nothing. Almost nobody contributing to or involved with Linux cares what the average consumer thinks. Apple and Microsoft have obligations to their shareholders to return on investments (by drawing in consumers and businesses to spend their money) but there's no motivation like that to get consumers to do anything with Linux. They are two fundamentally different models with different motivations, and because of that they might never be in direct competition with one another.

There's no commercials with celebrities making fun of Windows in the name of Linux, and there's no marketing zealot at the wheel. Frankly, I'm happy with that because everything about Linux is the way it is because it needs to be or it wants to be, not because the bottom line or a zealot thinks you'll like it. Cheers!

[Windows Nerd]

It doesn't. If it did, we would all be using Linux right now.

If Linux and Apple did heavy marketing about 25 years ago when Windows did and won the OS world over, we would all be smashing Windows Install CD's with our feet for fun.

[munky99999]

1. You can only install mac on apple certified hardware.
2. You get the apple tax when you buy their stuff... which generally is older tech.

Pretty easy to compete with that.

[Gen2ly]

Apple is really locked on in a specialized niche of multimedia. It does very will with video editing, and audio editing. With MS Office available it makes a good enough desktop for small businesss but that's really it's market share right now. Linux, well, it doesn't really have any of that. Linux's strength is in servers and for Window users that just need basic desktop functionality: web-browsing, light document editing, listening to music. Linux is much more a hobby for us :) that for people with time can make a good desktop if they have the time for it.

[HappinessNow]

http://ubuntuforums.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=127360&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1252032414 (http://ubuntuforums.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=127360&d=1252032414)


That is Not really the best use for a Mac Pro, a bit too much bloat. :P

[misfitpierce]

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=ubuntu_karmic_leopard&num=10

According to that Ubuntu 9.10 just beat Mac Snow Leopard on most of the performance tests and I ran mac and had issues with it and slowdown... Also read the mac forums and you will see people are getting blue screens and bunch of stuff not working... I've never had close to amount of problems reported with OSX lol!

[MikeTheC]

Actually, now that I'm running Snow Leopard, I can honestly say the difference in performance between SL and Leopard, as well as all the various distros of Linux, and even Windows (Vista and 7) is simply stunning. Period.

The kernel devs, the GNU crew, and whomever all else in question needs to really get their stuff in order and in gear if they want to keep this OS relevant.

[MooPi]

I would stack my Linux machine up against any computer for speed, reliability and versatility. I do run a very custom rig and am in total control of all that has been loaded on my computer. The fact that someone thinks we need to compete with any OS now confirms the notion that Linux is capable of competing. I have never used a Mac except for an old iBook with a 466mhz processor and 64 megs of ram, so there isn't any way for me to compare. But I've worked on them and you can't even tweek a Mac in the Bios because they don't have a conventional one. Theirs is called "open firmware" and it is greek to me .I'm going to go out on a limb and say customization must be very difficult on a Mac. Being able to change each and everything about how your computer functions will always keep Linux alive and kicking in my humble opinion. Customization is the key and letting others know about it will expand Linux usage.

[chessnerd]

When Linux gains a larger foothold on the OS market (im talking more than 5%) how will Linux be able to compete with Mac OS X?

It doesn't cost $2000 to get a notebook and put Linux on it:

Macbook Pro 15" - 2.66GHz Core 2 Duo, 4 GB RAM, 320 GB HDD, 256MB Nvidia graphics card: $1999.00

Dell Studio 15" - 2.4GHz Core 2 Duo, 4 GB RAM, 320 GB HDD, 256MB ATI graphics card: $909.00 (Possible refund of Windows for $50+ (http://www.linux.com/archive/articles/59381))

You decide...

[misfitpierce]

Also I dont think it should have to compete with anything, its a free and open source community... People can use what they want though. Don't understand why so many on here are so worried about linux competing with other OS's. Just use what makes you happy and enjoy it :)

[juancarlospaco]

Because Canonical don't sell Microsoft products bundled with their own products.
(MAC-->MS Office)

[starcannon]

Both Linux and Mac OSX require an initial investment.
OSX money and re-learning the gui.
Linux learning to install and re-learning the gui.

So the trade off is, time or money; which do most want to pay?

[aysiu]

Both Linux and Mac OSX require an initial investment.
OSX money and re-learning the gui.
Linux learning to install and re-learning the gui.

So the trade off is, time or money; which do most want to pay? You missed an option. The choices are limited, but there are Linux preinstalled machines available.

And learning to install isn't that complicated if you have Linux-friendly hardware.

[starcannon]

You missed an option. The choices are limited, but there are Linux preinstalled machines available.

And learning to install isn't that complicated if you have Linux-friendly hardware.

True that, I actually considered those things a little; but decided that if one were jumping into Linux, one may be inclined to use existing hardware, since that would generally be a very viable option.

[starcannon]

That is Not really the best use for a Mac Pro, a bit too much bloat. :P

I agree, a Mac Mini would have done the job sufficiently, allowing these pro's to do a job proportionate to their capability... perhaps holding open a barn door?