Reasons why Linux usage isn't increasing?

[K-bear]

So I wrote a long reply to the '10 most dissapointing tech's' thread, only to find it had been closed, but I think the point possibly deserves it's own topic thread anyway.

Mods: Before you automatically delete or blackhole this I ask you to consider that debate is a good thing, provided it is respectful and not flamey. Opinions and beliefs are pointless if not challenged and deliberately marginalising anyone who's opinion differs just leads to a monoculture.


There are 3 things that currently block Linux from widespread desktop adoption;

1. Microsoft's lock on pre-installation.
2. Hardware device driver pervasiveness.
3. The general public's lack of computer literacy.

Break through anyone of the 3, and others will fall shortly thereafter. The result will be the swift adoption of Linux on the desktop, and the equally swift death of Microsoft.

I don't use Linux.

While the above issues are indeed issues they are not the main ones, and really have nothing to do with me not using it. While driver support has massively increased over the last few years, Linux usage hasn't. Surely Linux adoption should have gone up with improved drivers?

Since Windows costs OEM's money surely there should also have been lots of new start-ups challenging the incumbents by being able to charge ~£60 less per unit than their competitors? I've not seen any even medium sized company selling Linux. Even small shops don't seem to offer Linux and I refuse to believe it is because they have never heard of it.

It's also certainly not marketing. It's impossible to browse any semi-popular tech forum on the Internet without having Linux pitched at you as the cure for all your ills - it is certainly not like nobody has heard of it. Generally asking a question such as 'Windows XP takes a long time to boot, how can I speed it up' will get a reply of 'Install Linux!'.

The reason Linux hasn't taken off is that the focus is on promotion, conversion, evangelism, and mainly spreading FUD about Microsoft. It's about telling people why they want Linux and why Windows sucks.

What the focus is *not* upon is finding out the reasons why people don't use it. There is no effort to find out why people may have tried it and do want it. In fact the community regularly turns on such people and brands them as shills, trolls and implies they are all paid by Microsoft. The attitude seems very much 'You'll take it and like it, or shut up'. Or 'F**k off, it's free'.

Asking people who do use it what can be done to get the people who don't use it to use it is stupid and convoluted. You need to ask the people who have rejected it why as they quite clearly have different requirements and issues.

If anybody seriously expects to be able to make inroads into the dominant share of Microsoft effort needs to be put in to finding out why people *don't* use Linux, and then to tackle the reasons brought up.

I would even go as far as to say there is almost no constructive criticism or debate of Linux, anywhere, that is not a flamewar. Feel free to prove me wrong by providing some some links, but I certainly can't find any. None that is civil and even remotely lively that is.

When the community stops actively silencing critics and listening to criticism rather than the 110% all-evangelism-all-the-time approach then it might gain a wider desktop acceptance.

Obviously you're all going to say I am wrong now, but I don't use Linux and I am your target audience. But I can't even say why I don't use it without being insulted, flamed and called an idiot.

I also have tried contributing, see here (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/Kerberos) if you're interested and believe that ideas should be free and allowed to be contributed just the same as code.

[HermanAB]

Linux is growing leaps and bounds in the embedded space. There are billions of Linux devices out there and most all cell phone makers are shifting to Linux. Compared to the embedded market, the desktop market is a drop in the bucket - Microsoft can have it, it doesn't matter.

[utnubuuser]

I'd guess that the main reason linux use is stable, is because it's unknown.
And that's the same reason why MS hasn't been overt in it's counter-linux campaign, - any press is good press - for linux at least.

Windows succeeded because it was a super-app... it made the axiom "a PC in every home" possible. - It's cheap compared to other well-know options.

Macintosh was/is successful because it was a super-app... -it revolutionized the publishing industry then went on to become reliable.

Linux was/is successful because...??? (a possible super-app is its inherent security and small footprint)

[RiceMonster]

Cool story. Many Linux users, such as myself, are not concerned about gaining market share, converting people, and finding out why Linux is being adopted by the desktop market. It works well for me and apparently a lot of other people, so I'm happy. Actually, windows works well for me in a lot of situations as well (I'd rather use it on a desktop at work than Linux). I'm actually posting this from Windows right now.

You are right, though. Many people think they have it figured out and narrow it down to one or two reasons why Linux isn't adopted; it's a lot more complicated than that.


Oh and I forgot: in b4 recurring discussions

[running_rabbit07]

i would even go as far as to say there is almost no constructive criticism or debate of linux, anywhere, that is not a flamewar. Feel free to prove me wrong by providing some some links, but i certainly can't find any. None that is civil and even remotely lively that is.
vvvv

[jrothwell97]

Because

there's the myth that Linux is "complicated" (mostly propagated by Windows fanboys, Mac fanboys, script kiddies and MS propaganda)
people are always suspicious of anything that's given away for free
the average computer user assumes Windows = computer.

[macogw]

1) linux usage is growing
2) just because it gets mention on tech forums (things that 95% of people do not read) doesn't mean people have heard of it

[Swagman]

Indeed

but I fail to grasp why the OP thinks Linux use Isn't growing because it IS.

Sure market surveys will tell their own story, that's because nearly all outlets sell computers with windows pre-installed. What happens after that is an entirely different kettle of fish.

Just yesterday I took my Family to Alton Towers (http://www.altontowers.com) which is a Theme Park in the U.K and wore my Ubuntu Hoody & cap.

Whilst queueing at the Donut stand the guy serving said "Hey, nice jacket mate" to which I replied "Thanks, but do you know what it means"? (Ubuntu)

He said "Damn right, I've been doing a computer course and have installed it on my home PC. I still can't get my girlfriend on it though".

To which I replied "Oh, She likes viruses and malware, trojans, keyloggers etc"

To which he laughed and "yeah, I reckon. Linux is catching on though especially as it's free."

I then received my Donuts and said ceeyaz mate.

Heaps of people heard this conversation and I bet they go a googling Ubuntu or Linux.

[swoll1980]

Indeed

but I fail to grasp why the OP thinks Linux use Isn't growing because it IS.

Look at his post count. The only thing he's looking for is some attention.

[JillSwift]

I have to apologize for what I am about to say, as it will seem to be playing into the OP's hands:

This is a concern troll. It's riddled with apocrypha, excluded middle fallacies, confirmation bias, and appeals to emotion/vanity. The leading premise is false, and the supporting premises are questionable, and the conclusion wildly absurd.

[aeiah]

biggest reason is that the general public doesn't really care.

[automaton26]

monoculture
There are plenty of open-minded, free-spirit, dual-booters here :)

As for reasons, there are lots of complex causes and effects, all wrapped up with plenty of human psychology. But none of them keep me awake at night, sorry.

Are there many Windows forums regularly discussing Linux objectively, or at all ?

If you have specific problems with Ubuntu, this forum is "a great place to Start".

[bodyharvester]

i agree with JillSwift.

Thread Closed. (please?)

[Tristam Green]

I have to apologize for what I am about to say, as it will seem to be playing into the OP's hands:

This is a concern troll. It's riddled with apocrypha, excluded middle fallacies, confirmation bias, and appeals to emotion/vanity. The leading premise is false, and the supporting premises are questionable, and the conclusion wildly absurd.

The lady doesn't lie.

However, it works both ways. There's FUD, bias, etc etc on all three sides of the fence - Microsoft, Apple, and the Linux community.

[spoons]

Indeed

but I fail to grasp why the OP thinks Linux use Isn't growing because it IS.

Sure market surveys will tell their own story, that's because nearly all outlets sell computers with windows pre-installed. What happens after that is an entirely different kettle of fish.

Just yesterday I took my Family to Alton Towers (http://www.altontowers.com) which is a Theme Park in the U.K and wore my Ubuntu Hoody & cap.

Whilst queueing at the Donut stand the guy serving said "Hey, nice jacket mate" to which I replied "Thanks, but do you know what it means"? (Ubuntu)

He said "Damn right, I've been doing a computer course and have installed it on my home PC. I still can't get my girlfriend on it though".

To which I replied "Oh, She likes viruses and malware, trojans, keyloggers etc"

To which he laughed and "yeah, I reckon. Linux is catching on though especially as it's free."

I then received my Donuts and said ceeyaz mate.

Heaps of people heard this conversation and I bet they go a googling Ubuntu or Linux.

That's a nice story. :)

From my perspective, it's been how what you get depends on what hardware you have. On Windows, it doesn't matter what you're running, everything's the same. Everything acts the same. On Linux, you get "You can't play x game because your ATi card/Intel card doesn't have good enough drivers, buy an Nvidia card." I know these things are slowly being worked on but right now they don't work very well. I think the "papercuts" thing is a good idea but big things such as video drivers are important. This isn't a rant, and I know I bang on about ATi drivers a lot in my posts, but it's a valid point.

[dragos240]

Linux servers are increasing every day. Linux Desktop however..... will gain a user every once in a while.

[PuddingKnife]

Linux usage is growing. I'm living proof :) I've been using Ubuntu for about a year now and have turned several friends who had shown interest into converts.

So the premise of your post is flawed. Maybe its not increasing fast enough for you?

[JillSwift]

However, it works both ways. There's FUD, bias, etc etc on all three sides of the fence - Microsoft, Apple, and the Linux community.
The squirrel dark mage also does not lie.

But FUD is part of how western cultures (and probably most other cultures) does things. Just look at elections in the USA. FUD fests, muck raking, guilt by association. Ugly stuff, ubiquitous stuff.

[Swagman]

The squirrel dark mage also does not lie.

But FUD is part of how western cultures (and probably most other cultures) does things. Just look at elections in the USA. FUD fests, muck raking, guilt by association. Ugly stuff, ubiquitous stuff.

Sounds just like the UK

hehe

[mrgnash]

I have to apologize for what I am about to say, as it will seem to be playing into the OP's hands:

This is a concern troll. It's riddled with apocrypha, excluded middle fallacies, confirmation bias, and appeals to emotion/vanity. The leading premise is false, and the supporting premises are questionable, and the conclusion wildly absurd.

A very incisive analysis :)

[cptrohn]

It's advertising pure and simple....

Most people don't even know what linux or ubuntu is. They don't know anything about it.

You can't turn on the TV and not see an Apple or a MS commercial... if more people knew about it they would use it.... which is what is going to make the Google OS interesting anyway... they have the money to throw some weight around and can match them in advertising.

[Tristam Green]

The squirrel dark mage also does not lie.

But FUD is part of how western cultures (and probably most other cultures) does things. Just look at elections in the USA. FUD fests, muck raking, guilt by association. Ugly stuff, ubiquitous stuff.

Shameful stuff, but that's the world we live in lol.

[cascade9]

+1 to JillSwift

IMO, theres another reason why linux hasnt really become a major player...brand recognition.

Everyone knows microsoft, and almost anyone with any intrest in PCs knows win 98, XP, vista. Almost as many people know Apple, and quite a few know that there is somecool 'cat' theme with Mac stuff. Tigers, and cool stuff!. Linux has yet to become that recognised..and when it does, it may well be seen as 'generic'.

Maybe Chrome wil change that, google is as well known as microsoft. Maybe Chrome will be seen as a 'status' package, not just a 'generic' OS. Maybe.

BTW, I'm no great fan of google.

[K-bear]

The lady doesn't lie.

However, it works both ways. There's FUD, bias, etc etc on all three sides of the fence - Microsoft, Apple, and the Linux community.
That is true, but it is possible to debate the merits and problems of Windows (and OSX) in an intellectually honest and open fashion. The improvements in Windows 7 from Vista (I believe) are largely a result of the mass criticism from the community.

The difference with the Linux community is it self-censors critical opinions with flames and insults, effectively removing any critical feedback that a normal, healthy project should have. I provided links to my own contributions to Ubuntu (what have you done?) to prove I am just not trolling and capable of being productive, yet it seems simply saying 'I think there should be more debate, rather than just blind praise' marks me a 'troll'.

Debate and discussion are key in improving software (and I am saying this as a full-time developer). Problems get pointed out, suggestions get raised, refined and improved, people get to contribute and the developers get some nice constructive feedback. It is a 'community developed' OS after all. I don't see why there is so much resistance to this?

[running_rabbit07]

I have to apologize for what I am about to say, as it will seem to be playing into the OP's hands:

This is a concern troll. It's riddled with apocrypha, excluded middle fallacies, confirmation bias, and appeals to emotion/vanity. The leading premise is false, and the supporting premises are questionable, and the conclusion wildly absurd.

I love Critical Thinking.

[K-bear]

I have to apologize for what I am about to say, as it will seem to be playing into the OP's hands:

This is a concern troll. It's riddled with apocrypha, excluded middle fallacies, confirmation bias, and appeals to emotion/vanity. The leading premise is false, and the supporting premises are questionable, and the conclusion wildly absurd.
Ad hominem.

[JillSwift]

Ad hominem.
No. I attacked your argument, not you.

You could address my concerns, if you like.

[cmannnn]

I dont know if it was said alredy but linux isent increasing is cuz its scary the first time you install an os atleast i thought it was it. thats why im happy system 76 did what they did and stated selling laptops with ubuntu in them so people dont have to do it them selves if morecompanies did this linux would skyrocket

[K-bear]

No. I attacked your argument, not you.

You could address my concerns, if you like.
The fact that your reply could be used in hundreds of different threads on virtually any topic proves it lacks any fundamental substance. Saying "the supporting premises are questionable, and the conclusion wildly absurd." is not an effective rebuttal.

You addressed no points and gave no examples. All you succeeded in doing was being rude and proving the very premise that I originally stated. I stand by my claim - you attacked me, not my argument.

[cptrohn]

Advertising..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYecfV3ubP8

Of course this commercial is legendary..... but it pretty much changed everything....

[pawhtiobo]

In my opinion, Linux will match MS the day that it will cativate all Gamers. Many people that uses windows, they use it with a single propose, to play, our days games are 90% done to be played in MS OS or in a console ...i know that many wil say..."but we can play in linux...", but in my opinion, yes you can play, but not the same easy way you play in Bill Gates playground.


see ya....

[RiceMonster]

In my opinion, Linux will match MS the day that it will cativate all Gamers. Many people that uses windows, they use it with a single propose, to play, our days games are 90% done to be played in MS OS or in a console ...i know that many wil say..."but we can play in linux...", but in my opinion, yes you can play, but not the same easy way you play in Bill Gates playground.


see ya....

Haha, no. There are much more reasons why people use Windows than just games. Infact, gamers are not that big of a part of the market.

[JillSwift]

The fact that your reply could be used in hundreds of different threads on virtually any topic proves it lacks any fundamental substance. Saying "the supporting premises are questionable, and the conclusion wildly absurd." is not an effective rebuttal.

You addressed no points and gave no examples. All you succeeded in doing was being rude and proving the very premise that I originally stated. I stand by my claim - you attacked me, not my argument.

Ok. if I have to be specific:

Premise: Linux based OS use is not on the rise.
Rebuttal (http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_os.asp). Apocrypha. Leading premise is false.

Supporting premise: Increased driver support has not equalled increased Linux use.
Rebuttal: No substantiation of claim the two are related. Alternative explanations of slow Linux OS growth (such as simple consumer inertia) is better evidenced. Follows false lead premise.

Supporting premise: OEMs do not use Linux as a pre-install more often despite its low or no cost.
Rebuttal: OEMs sell what people buy, not what is cheapest for them. Alternative explanations (such as contractual obligations) are better evidenced. Follows false lead premise.

Supporting premise: It's not lack of marketing, as evidenced by Linux being mentioned often on tech sites.
Rebuttal: Tech sites are not marketing. Techies already know about Linux, that's why it's mentioned. Red herring fallacy.

Supporting premise: The community focuses on Microsoft bashing.
Rebuttal: Examples of OS bashing can easily be found on more than Linux forums. Excluded middle fallacy. Also, there are also examples of critical examinations of Linux based OSs that do not have flames emitting from their vents.

Conclusion: The Linux community is at fault for Linux's failure to grow.
Rebuttal: False leading premise results in absurd conclusion.

[cptrohn]

In my opinion, Linux will match MS the day that it will cativate all Gamers. Many people that uses windows, they use it with a single propose, to play, our days games are 90% done to be played in MS OS or in a console ...i know that many wil say..."but we can play in linux...", but in my opinion, yes you can play, but not the same easy way you play in Bill Gates playground.


see ya....

Computer gaming is going the way of the dinosuar though... Why chase a part of the industry that is going away more and more every year?

You can't even buy John Madden football on the PC anymore.. and the new generation of console games are hastening PC gaming's death.

[pawhtiobo]

Haha, no. There are much more reasons why people use Windows than just games. Infact, gamers are not that big of a part of the market.

Are you sure?? Well, I sell a lot o Hyper/Super/Mega VGA cards here, and i can tell you, they are my top selling articles... i don't think they will use them to just browse the internet or do some text processing...i admit that companies are the major slice of the cake, but its dificult to change 10 years of reign, with just the good will of some....maybe one day things will change.

see ya :)

[RabbitWho]

Linux usage is increasing.. how has this thread so many replies.

[cptrohn]

Haha, no. There are much more reasons why people use Windows than just games. Infact, gamers are not that big of a part of the market.

Office?


You can run office in wine.... or just use open office or google docs instead...

[running_rabbit07]

Ok. if I have to be specific:

Premise: Linux based OS use is not on the rise.
Rebuttal (http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_os.asp). Apocrypha. Leading premise is false.

Supporting premise: Increased driver support has not equalled increased Linux use.
Rebuttal: No substantiation of claim the two are related. Alternative explanations of slow Linux OS growth (such as simple consumer inertia) is better evidenced. Follows false lead premise.

Supporting premise: OEMs do not use Linux as a pre-install more often despite its low or no cost.
Rebuttal: OEMs sell what people buy, not what is cheapest for them. Alternative explanations (such as contractual obligations) are better evidenced. Follows false lead premise.

Supporting premise: It's not lack of marketing, as evidenced by Linux being mentioned often on tech sites.
Rebuttal: Tech sites are not marketing. Techies already know about Linux, that's why it's mentioned. Red herring fallacy.

Supporting premise: The community focuses on Microsoft bashing.
Rebuttal: Examples of OS bashing can easily be found on more than Linux forums. Excluded middle fallacy. Also, there are also examples of critical examinations of Linux based OSs that do not have flames emitting from their vents.

Conclusion: The Linux community is at fault for Linux's failure to grow.
Rebuttal: False leading premise results in absurd conclusion.

You make me want to take Philosophy 102 again.

Personally I think this guy needs to get a real job and do his own homework.

Mods should check the OP's IP to see if they have already burnt his beans before.

[Baneblade]

I dont think that I really want linux to become popular and mainstream anymore. I used to back when I started first using it, I would tell everyone about it... when people came to me with their broken machines (usually virus ridden XP boxes) id rave about the benefits of linux and they'd agree to try it.

So after warning them that it would be different from what they are used to, id be given the machine back within a day or two and asked to put XP back on for them. It was only then that i realised, that to most people, when u say "computer" they immediately think "windows computer". The thing that is really sad for me is that none of them had any desire to learn the new, faster, safer more stable system. Even when i sat down with them and talked them through their new Ubuntu installation. They just wanted what they knew.

I have since stopped bothering :(

[running_rabbit07]

The real question.

What leads K-bear to believe that Linux usage is not increasing?

I have seen many new users come into the land of Linux as I am also a new user of Linux.

Many of the companies that sell MS on their machines do so because they have a contract with MS to do so.

Linux distributors such as Ubuntu do not require registration, there fore how can one say that the numbers aren't increasing. Does the OP think that because Linux can't provide actual real time data as to how many people are using Linux that it is therefore stagnate?

Do you really think that the numbers of MS installations are correct? I know of many people that have personally removed MS from their systems and incorporated Ubuntu onto said systems. I am one of them.

Tables now turned. K-bear, it is your turn to answer some questions to make this a two-way communication.

[K-bear]

Ok. if I have to be specific:

Premise: Linux based OS use is not on the rise.
Rebuttal (http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_os.asp). Apocrypha. Leading premise is false.
Are you being a pedant? I am talking Desktop Linux here, I have no idea the numbers on embedded Linux - but given that this is ubuntuforums the number of Linux powered set-top boxes is irrelevant to the discussion. Looking at the numbers it seems that Linux, at best, is increasing in usage at about 0.1% per year. At that rate it'll hit 10% in about 100 years. Sure usage may be on the rise, but that rise is negligible. At the current rate it will never be a significant player in the desktop arena.
Supporting premise: Increased driver support has not equalled increased Linux use.
Rebuttal: No substantiation of claim the two are related. Alternative explanations of slow Linux OS growth (such as simple consumer inertia) is better evidenced. Follows false lead premise.
You're not a schoolteacher (maybe you are) but your attitude is rude, condescending and makes you look like you have a superiority complex. Talk like a human, it's only respectful.

From you're egregious verbiage I can barely make out your point. "No substantiation of claim the two are related." I didn't claim they were related. 'Driver support' is/was often given as the reason for low Linux adoption. Driver support has massively improved over the last 3+ years, yet adoption has not increased dramatically. I am saying there is no correlation.
Supporting premise: OEMs do not use Linux as a pre-install more often despite its low or no cost.
Rebuttal: OEMs sell what people buy, not what is cheapest for them. Alternative explanations (such as contractual obligations) are better evidenced. Follows false lead premise.
So if OEM's sell what people buy, and the said OEM's sell Windows rather than Linux then you are saying that people don't want Linux? Apple has no problem selling OSX and have ~10% share despite their business model deliberatly not aiming for a large marketshare, yet there is no successful OEM selling mainly Desktop Linux. Because people don't appear to want it. Surely there is a massive hole in the market, as I said, where someone can undercut their competitors by a significant amount per-unit, yet they don't.
Supporting premise: It's not lack of marketing, as evidenced by Linux being mentioned often on tech sites.
Rebuttal: Tech sites are not marketing. Techies already know about Linux, that's why it's mentioned. Red herring fallacy.
An order of magnitude more people know about Linux than use it. It's virtually impossible to be even marginally technically minded without knowing about Linux. Yet a very large amount of these people still don't use it despite knowing about it. Why is this?
Supporting premise: The community focuses on Microsoft bashing.
Rebuttal: Examples of OS bashing can easily be found on more than Linux forums. Excluded middle fallacy. Also, there are also examples of critical examinations of Linux based OSs that do not have flames emitting from their vents.
"there are also examples of critical examinations of Linux based OSs" [citation needed]. There are no critical examination on this forum, or on any other forum I have ever seen. The only place I have ever seen any such discussions is in the occasional (moderated) comments of blog posts. There is certainly no constructive criticism that I have ever found that isn't in an extremely heavily moderated context. Yet I could find honest discussion of the problems on Windows and OSX with very little effort.
Conclusion: The Linux community is at fault for Linux's failure to grow.
Rebuttal: False leading premise results in absurd conclusion.
Here's a question: What is the reason for Linux (proven) incredibly slow usage increase? Compare it to OSX, another Unix based OS, which is a massive success. And please try to speak like a normal person. Being borderline intillegible due to egregiously verbose verbiage does not make you look intelligent, it just makes you look pompous with an inability to communicate properly.

My ultimate assertion is that there is no criticism of Linux, and the little that does exist is turned into flamewars by people such as yourself. If you disagree then either:



Prove me wrong, with proof or
Provide a reason why the community should not be critical.


It should be an easy task.

[JillSwift]

You make me want to take Philosophy 102 again
Heh. Why take a class when any good debate forum will tweak those skills :D

(My favorites are the conspiracy theory boards. They can get awfully subtle with their fallacies.)

[pawhtiobo]

I dont think that I really want linux to become popular and mainstream anymore. I used to back when I started first using it, I would tell everyone about it... when people came to me with their broken machines (usually virus ridden XP boxes) id rave about the benefits of linux and they'd agree to try it.

So after warning them that it would be different from what they are used to, id be given the machine back within a day or two and asked to put XP back on for them. It was only then that i realised, that to most people, when u say "computer" they immediately think "windows computer". The thing that is really sad for me is that none of them had any desire to learn the new, faster, safer more stable system. Even when i sat down with them and talked them through their new Ubuntu installation. They just wanted what they knew.

I have since stopped bothering :(

Common people are afraid of the unknown ;)... better for me hihi :evil:... i win my life, fixing MS boxes :D

see ya...

[RiceMonster]

Office?


You can run office in wine.... or just use open office or google docs instead...

Yes, because running software in wine is such a good idea for a business, right? I don't buy "you can run that in wine" as a reason why anyone should run Linux. Let's be honest, while wine is very complex, and the devs have done an amazing job at getting it to run software, it's still not nearly as reliable as running it natively.

[BuffaloX]

I have to apologize for what I am about to say, as it will seem to be playing into the OP's hands:

This is a concern troll. It's riddled with apocrypha, excluded middle fallacies, confirmation bias, and appeals to emotion/vanity. The leading premise is false, and the supporting premises are questionable, and the conclusion wildly absurd.

Also what you said in post #33.

About the premise: Linux Usage isn't increasing,
since nobody else has yet shown how this is provably factually false
I'll do it. Here goes:

I started using Linux spring 2006,
Linux Usage percentage according to various sites:
Measured as percentage of Linux systems accessing Internet sites.

W3schools: 2006 = 3.4 -> 2009 = 4.3 increase 26%
W3counter: 2006 = 1.2 -> 2009 = 2.0 increase 67%
Netapplications: 2006 = 0.35 -> 2009 = 1.05 increase 200%

Internet penetration worldwide:
2006 = 1b -> 2009 = 1.7b increase 70%

Total increase of Linux users as measured by Internet access.
w3schools = 115%
w3counter = 183%
netapplications: = 410%

While all these numbers vary, they agree on one crucial thing:

Linux usage is increasing.

[running_rabbit07]

blah this and blah that and a cloud from behind

Really, she was talking like you want her to talk. You made an argument and she broke it down and threw it back at you. You appear to be educated, so use some of what you learned in PHIL classes or did you only do enough to get by without retaining anything.

You claimed MAC OS is doing great, of coarse they are. They were here before MS.

Last and not least, Linux is a community built system that isn't in it for a market share.

You pointed out that many people know about Linux yet don't use it. Many people know that German cars have much better safety and quality ratings, yet they don't buy one.
Many people know that condoms prevent HIV spreading, yet they don't use them. Many know that sunscreen prevents skin cancer, yet they don't use it. Many know that smoking causes cancer, yet they don't quit. Your point on "many knowing" is lost.

You are the one that needs to prove something. Not us. We are happy with Linux.

[cascade9]

My ultimate assertion is that there is no criticism of Linux, and the little that does exist is turned into flamewars by people such as yourself. If you disagree then either:

If you think that JillSwift was flaming you, then I hate to see what you would say about some of the other forums I've been on.

I'll stick with my version of why its not getting bigger which comes down to 4 things-

1- People cant be bothered to even look for alternative software.

2- Branding. I hear stuff like "ohh, you need photoshop to do any graphical work" etc. Yeah, right, and you need a SUV to take the kids to school.

3- Linux gets attacked for being 'free' with the 'you get what you pay for' attitude. If people actually bothered looking, they would find that the majority of things work under linux, though the steps to get what you want might be very different.

4- People are sheeple. They want what everybody else has.

Since your in 'prove' mode..prove that linux is increasing at 0.1%. There is no accurate way of getting numbers of linux users-

http://www.oreillynet.com/linux/blog/2007/10/how_can_linux_market_share_be.html

[JillSwift]

Are you being a pedant? ad homenim

I am talking Desktop Linux here, I have no idea the numbers on embedded Linux - but given that this is ubuntuforums the number of Linux powered set-top boxes is irrelevant to the discussion. Looking at the numbers it seems that Linux, at best, is increasing in usage at about 0.1% per year. At that rate it'll hit 10% in about 100 years. Sure usage may be on the rise, but that rise is negligible. At the current rate it will never be a significant player in the desktop arena.The numbers on that page represent desktop use, as recorded by web servers on the 'net. They demonstrate growth with a positive disproportion to that of windows and OSX. Thus, your premise is wrong. Whether or not that growth is "negligible" is entirely a matter of subjective value.

You're not a schoolteacher (maybe you are) but your attitude is rude, condescending and makes you look like you have a superiority complex. Talk like a human, it's only respectful. ad hominem

From you're egregious verbiage I can barely make out your point. "No substantiation of claim the two are related." I didn't claim they were related. 'Driver support' is/was often given as the reason for low Linux adoption. Driver support has massively improved over the last 3+ years, yet adoption has not increased dramatically. I am saying there is no correlation. We agree that there is no correlation. It is therefore not a valid supporting premise.

So if OEM's sell what people buy, and the said OEM's sell Windows rather than Linux then you are saying that people don't want Linux? Apple has no problem selling OSX and have ~10% share despite their business model deliberatly not aiming for a large marketshare, yet there is no successful OEM selling mainly Desktop Linux. Because people don't appear to want it. Surely there is a massive hole in the market, as I said, where someone can undercut their competitors by a significant amount per-unit, yet they don't.Yes, I am saying that people do not want Linux. I belive that the reason is consumer inertia. I also believe it's not a big deal.
However, you're wrong about successful OEMs not selling Linux. ZaReason, System 76, Emperor Linux, etc. These are companies that are long-term and growing.

An order of magnitude more people know about Linux than use it. It's virtually impossible to be even marginally technically minded without knowing about Linux. Yet a very large amount of these people still don't use it despite knowing about it. Why is this?Order of magnitude? Do please back that up with at least one citation. Note that you will have a difficult time, considering the number of dual-booters. It's a false dichotomy to think one must abandon Windows in order to use Linux.

"there are also examples of critical examinations of Linux based OSs" [citation needed]. There are no critical examination on this forum, or on any other forum I have ever seen. The only place I have ever seen any such discussions is in the occasional (moderated) comments of blog posts. There is certainly no constructive criticism that I have ever found that isn't in an extremely heavily moderated context. Yet I could find honest discussion of the problems on Windows and OSX with very little effort.one example: here (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1248307). Mind you, you're the one making the positive claim, so if you find that example wanting I will find that an attempt to eschew evidence.

Here's a question: What is the reason for Linux (proven) incredibly slow usage increase? Compare it to OSX, another Unix based OS, which is a massive success.Better question: Why is it important in the least? One assumption you make is that desktop market share makes a difference. Linux based OSs have found solid niches elsewhere, which thanks to code sharing keeps the desktop distros in new code even if the developers coding specifically for the desktop were to abandon their work.

And please try to speak like a normal person. Being borderline intillegible due to egregiously verbose verbiage does not make you look intelligent, it just makes you look pompous with an inability to communicate properly.Ad hominem.

My ultimate assertion is that there is no criticism of Linux, and the little that does exist is turned into flamewars by people such as yourself. If you disagree then either: another ad hominem.




Prove me wrong, with proof or
Provide a reason why the community should not be critical.

false dichotomy fallacy.
It should be an easy task.
It's not up to me, I've maid no claims. You've made the claim, it's up to you to evidence your argument.

[running_rabbit07]

If you think that JillSwift was flaming you, then I hate to see what you would say about some of the other forums I've been on.

The OP doesn't know what he is talking about and wants a flame war.

[Chame_Wizard]

Nice argument Jillswift.:lolflag::guitar:

[Tristam Green]

The OP doesn't know what he is talking about and wants a flame war. Probably works for MS and wants to spread some more good old FUD around.

It never stops cracking me up to see someone tossing around the shill accusations.

[running_rabbit07]

It's not up to me, I've maid no claims. You've made the claim, it's up to you to evidence your argument.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

It never stops cracking me up to see someone tossing around the shill accusations.

The OP kinda jumped in and said, "Here is what I think, but I have no proof, so it is your job to prove me wrong now."

[RiceMonster]

The OP doesn't know what he is talking about and wants a flame war. Probably works for MS and wants to spread some more good old FUD around.

lmao

Ok, maybe s/he's a troll, but works for MS? Why would an MS employee come on here just to argue/troll? Give me a break.

[running_rabbit07]

lmao

Ok, maybe s/he's a troll, but works for MS? Why would an MS employee come on here just to argue/troll? Give me a break.

So maybe I stretched too far. I am just trying to figure out his motive here.

(No breaks, must work hard!:))

[JillSwift]

The OP kinda jumped in and said here is what I think, but I have no proof, so it is your job to prove me wrong now.Yeah, but that's not evidence of being a shill. I very much doubt there is a single soul employed directly or indirectly by Microsoft to go around trolling web forums. Microsoft can spread FUD all they like with great success right out in the open - Ballmer has done so on many occasions.

[JillSwift]

So maybe I stretched too far. I am just trying to figure out his motive here.
Never attribute to malice what boredom sufficiently explains ;)

[koenn]

So maybe I stretched too far. I am just trying to figure out his motive here.
Linux is so popular, that even people who don't use it know it inside out and have an opinion on what it should do, what it should look like, what its marketing strategy should be etc etc etc.

[Tristam Green]

Whoa whoa whoa there koenn, ironic rhetoric? Them's fighting words 'round here :lolflag:

[Katalog]

Wow, two "Why Linux doesn't have more market share" threads in one week? Isn't this getting a little repetitive by now? This is going to be my only reply to this thread because, at least I for one, am getting pretty weary of talking in circles about this subject ad nauseam and going absolutely nowhere. I will just leave you with this one thought to consider: If Linux usage is not on the rise then why would Microsoft, for the first time in the history of the company, mention Canonical and Red Hat by name as major competitors in their most recent annual SEC filing? And don't tell me it's for legal reasons (at least in the U.S.), because the DOJ has already pretty much given them a pass on the old anticompetitive practices accusations.

[mercules2178]

The problem is that windows is pre-installed on a desktop when you go to the store. There are the commercials on tv, radio, and web. When people get a virus they search for a way to rid themselves of it. When they buy that cell phone they pop in a cd and click... next... next... next...! The same for any hardware that they purchase. If linux was on the shelf next to windows and information to explain to the customer what software was the equivalent to windows then they would probably purchase the pc. It would also be cheaper and they would not have to pay some guy to come to their house to repair it either. Linux has a large community and it is growing. I would have not known about linux if I had not gone to college.

For an expamle: my mother in-law bought a brand new pc with vista on it because she uses chief architect. She came over to our house one day and asked me how I was able to have a 3D cube on my desktop when I was searching for a window I had opened. I told her welcome to linux! You can do that in windows but it costs you more! Now she runs vista in virtualbox and linux mint as her desktop. She already had a copy of vista on an older machine, it was just slow due to vista's requirments. She told me that she likes linux due to the fact that she does not have to continually purchase software to do what she "Wants" to do with her computer. She also said that if she needs help she just stops by the community and asks for help.

When it comes down to it, linux is not on the shelf and the big box sellers are not showing the customer a comparison. Small guys do not support due to the customer support issues they would receive. No one wants to be told to go to a forum for help when they just dropped a few hundred bucks on a system. People need to see mainstream comparisons and a commercial of a linux guy beating up windows and mac!

[koenn]

Whoa whoa whoa there koenn, ironic rhetoric? Them's fighting words 'round here :lolflag:
yeah, those social skills, ... never quite figured them out.

:)

[running_rabbit07]

Linux is so popular, that even people who don't use it know it inside out and have an opinion on what it should do, what it should look like, what its marketing strategy should be etc etc etc.

That's understandable. Either way I really don't think the OP thought much before writing the argument. I have not been in this community long, but I have seen it grow. I also think the OP didn't notice that Google is building their own little Linux and trying to get it into the market. I am happy with Ubuntu/Linux and if Ubuntu wasn't here I'd be using Fedora. I didn't change to get away from Windows, but to try something new and I liked it. If that is the way of Linux, then it is working, slowly but surely.

Getting people to change OSes is like trying to get a lifelong Ford man to buy a Honda. The person has to want to change.

[macogw]

The difference with the Linux community is it self-censors critical opinions with flames and insults, effectively removing any critical feedback that a normal, healthy project should have.

Nah, we just say "don't complain if you haven't filed a bug." If you're going to complain, at *least* give us the bug # so we can do something about it.

In my opinion, Linux will match MS the day that it will cativate all Gamers. Many people that uses windows, they use it with a single propose, to play, our days games are 90% done to be played in MS OS or in a console ...i know that many wil say..."but we can play in linux...", but in my opinion, yes you can play, but not the same easy way you play in Bill Gates playground.


see ya....

Something like 60% of gamers are middle-aged women playing in-browser games. You can totally do that on Linux. I used to play Runescape on Ubuntu...til I got trapped in that house with the chicken...

[running_rabbit07]

Something like 60% of gamers are middle-aged women playing in-browser games. You can totally do that on Linux. I used to play Runescape on Ubuntu...til I got trapped in that house with the chicken...

My wife's not middle aged yet but she plays online games all the time, too. One day I will get her using Ubuntu.

[macogw]

By the way, kids, a friend of mine started this blog here What Will We Use (http://whatwillweuse.com) to track Bug #1 and Microsoft's market share. Check it out.

Full disclosure: I'm one of the writers. You can be one too! Just send me an article you want posted with a little 2 or 3 sentence bio and I'll make it a guest writer post, k?

[running_rabbit07]

By the way, kids, a friend of mine started this blog here What Will We Use (http://whatwillweuse.com) to track Bug #1 and Microsoft's market share. Check it out.

Full disclosure: I'm one of the writers. You can be one too! Just send me an article you want posted with a little 2 or 3 sentence bio and I'll make it a guest writer post, k?

Wow, that bit about the locked software is crazy.

[macogw]

Wow, that bit about the locked software is crazy.

Hmm which? I assume you're referring to one of Bethlynn's posts since I've been writing about social stuff.

[running_rabbit07]

Hmm which? I assume you're referring to one of Bethlynn's posts since I've been writing about social stuff.

[/quote]A non-Linux-user friend of mine mentioned that his DVD-encoder software stopped working on his Windows XP computer after last patch Tuesday. A pop-up now shows up in the sys-tray saying that he’s got to “upgrade” to Vista in order for this software to “unlock.” Did this happen to any one else out there? Please let us know in the comments.[/quote]

[pawhtiobo]

Nah, we just say "don't complain if you haven't filed a bug." If you're going to complain, at *least* give us the bug # so we can do something about it.



Something like 60% of gamers are middle-aged women playing in-browser games. You can totally do that on Linux. I used to play Runescape on Ubuntu...til I got trapped in that house with the chicken...

I only talk about my experience and my company's experience, that's facts that i cant deny, here in my region/country things are the way i say they were... its easier to buy a super VGA and dowload all the torrents that your HD can handle...and run them in a MS box, after all they were made for that kind of platform...i'm not saying that isn't possible, i know its possible, because run games in linux, but its easier to do next->next->finish:)
Here in Portugal i notice a large growth of the linux distribution "Caixa Mágica" our national linux project, because the governament made a deal with some company's to bring netbooks and notebook to the portuguese school's...but that isn't as good has we would imagine, i can tell that 90% of those machines where converted to MS, because all of them costs 150€ (depending on the family's social background), and you could get a most powerful machine if you ask it with linux pre-installed...then you are a smart guy, and ask a friend a pirate XP CD and ist's done... i know that because we have witnessed this a lot and we have done lots of those conversions with XP OEM CD's...at least what's make me happy is that some kids have sticked with the linux and maybe, in a few years they will also be here helping others, many will say...10 kids will not make the diference...but i think that every ant is valuable when the queens life is in risc :D

see ya...

[ryaxnb]

but linux usage is increasing... it doubled in a couple years, and just recently (last 3 months) went up .2% to 2.25 from 2.04.:confused: :)

[ryaxnb]

So I wrote a long reply to the '10 most dissapointing tech's' thread, only to find it had been closed, but I think the point possibly deserves it's own topic thread anyway.

Mods: Before you automatically delete or blackhole this I ask you to consider that debate is a good thing, provided it is respectful and not flamey. Opinions and beliefs are pointless if not challenged and deliberately marginalising anyone who's opinion differs just leads to a monoculture.



I don't use Linux.

While the above issues are indeed issues they are not the main ones, and really have nothing to do with me not using it. While driver support has massively increased over the last few years, Linux usage hasn't. Surely Linux adoption should have gone up with improved drivers?

Since Windows costs OEM's money surely there should also have been lots of new start-ups challenging the incumbents by being able to charge ~£60 less per unit than their competitors? I've not seen any even medium sized company selling Linux. Even small shops don't seem to offer Linux and I refuse to believe it is because they have never heard of it.

It's also certainly not marketing. It's impossible to browse any semi-popular tech forum on the Internet without having Linux pitched at you as the cure for all your ills - it is certainly not like nobody has heard of it. Generally asking a question such as 'Windows XP takes a long time to boot, how can I speed it up' will get a reply of 'Install Linux!'.

The reason Linux hasn't taken off is that the focus is on promotion, conversion, evangelism, and mainly spreading FUD about Microsoft. It's about telling people why they want Linux and why Windows sucks.

What the focus is *not* upon is finding out the reasons why people don't use it. There is no effort to find out why people may have tried it and do want it. In fact the community regularly turns on such people and brands them as shills, trolls and implies they are all paid by Microsoft. The attitude seems very much 'You'll take it and like it, or shut up'. Or 'F**k off, it's free'.

Asking people who do use it what can be done to get the people who don't use it to use it is stupid and convoluted. You need to ask the people who have rejected it why as they quite clearly have different requirements and issues.

If anybody seriously expects to be able to make inroads into the dominant share of Microsoft effort needs to be put in to finding out why people *don't* use Linux, and then to tackle the reasons brought up.

I would even go as far as to say there is almost no constructive criticism or debate of Linux, anywhere, that is not a flamewar. Feel free to prove me wrong by providing some some links, but I certainly can't find any. None that is civil and even remotely lively that is.

When the community stops actively silencing critics and listening to criticism rather than the 110% all-evangelism-all-the-time approach then it might gain a wider desktop acceptance.

Obviously you're all going to say I am wrong now, but I don't use Linux and I am your target audience. But I can't even say why I don't use it without being insulted, flamed and called an idiot.

I also have tried contributing, see here (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/Kerberos) if you're interested and believe that ideas should be free and allowed to be contributed just the same as code.

Linux usage is going up...
:confused:
Also, i agree we should figure out why users don't use linux, but that's not the main problem. I have to explain what an OS is to every user i go to. Most think of hardware, not software. We need OEM sales... and we need some clear marketing that explains what an OS is and why you'd pick Linux. :popcorn:

[ryaxnb]

Are you being a pedant? I am talking Desktop Linux here, I have no idea the numbers on embedded Linux - but given that this is ubuntuforums the number of Linux powered set-top boxes is irrelevant to the discussion. Looking at the numbers it seems that Linux, at best, is increasing in usage at about 0.1% per year. At that rate it'll hit 10% in about 100 years. Sure usage may be on the rise, but that rise is negligible. At the current rate it will never be a significant player in the desktop arena.

Linux usage is increasing at approximately .4% a year. It is now at 2.3% and just at the end of last year was at 2%. This is not embedded, this is real linux growth. Furthermore, Linux growth has accelerated for much of it's history, and there is evidence that in key markets, around the world and in businesses, it's accelerating its growth today.
[quote]
From you're egregious verbiage I can barely make out your point. "No substantiation of claim the two are related." I didn't claim they were related. 'Driver support' is/was often given as the reason for low Linux adoption. Driver support has massively improved over the last 3+ years, yet adoption has not increased dramatically. I am saying there is no correlation.

Adoption has increased.. And drivers are still not perfect. Furthermore... Linux still has some key problems. Unfamiliarity, people don't know what an OS is or how to install one, it doesn't run Adobe programs, and the occasional regression per release.
So if OEM's sell what people buy, and the said OEM's sell Windows rather than Linux then you are saying that people don't want Linux? Apple has no problem selling OSX and have ~10% share despite their business model deliberatly not aiming for a large marketshare, yet there is no successful OEM selling mainly Desktop Linux. Because people don't appear to want it. Surely there is a massive hole in the market, as I said, where someone can undercut their competitors by a significant amount per-unit, yet they don't.

System76 succesfully sells exclusively Ubuntu. People don't know what linux is, and the linux options are poor. No wonder few OEM sales go to linux. Furthermore, the windows tax is subsidized by various crapware installed with windows.
An order of magnitude more people know about Linux than use it. It's virtually impossible to be even marginally technically minded without knowing about Linux. Yet a very large amount of these people still don't use it despite knowing about it. Why is this?

Because tech people are unusally likely to be gamers is my guess. Also, tech people are very likely to want full compatibility with all the latest toys...

"there are also examples of critical examinations of Linux based OSs" [citation needed]. There are no critical examination on this forum, or on any other forum I have ever seen. The only place I have ever seen any such discussions is in the occasional (moderated) comments of blog posts. There is certainly no constructive criticism that I have ever found that isn't in an extremely heavily moderated context. Yet I could find honest discussion of the problems on Windows and OSX with very little effort.

I find various constructive criticsm of linux. Here's some right now... having two package formats leads to confusion... regressions are too common... certain distros are unnecessary... Slackware based distros should die due to lack of standard pkg format... and KDE 4.0 was a massive screwup (4.2+ are much better). People respect (even if they don't agree) with constructive criticsm a lot more if you're still using linux and aren't threatening to switch back. Despite the above criticsms and others, i'm an ardent linux fan.
Here's a question: What is the reason for Linux (proven) incredibly slow usage increase? Compare it to OSX, another Unix based OS, which is a massive success. And please try to speak like a normal person. Being borderline intillegible due to egregiously verbose verbiage does not make you look intelligent, it just makes you look pompous with an inability to communicate properly.
It's not "(proven)". OS X sits at under 4% worldwide share, linux at under 2.5%. Not bad. linux just a few years ago was under 1%. Just a year ago it was well under two. OS X is a massive success in certain limited measures. It has achieved US-Wide successs. In other countries, market share is as low as 3%, compared to as high as 5% for linux in the same country. In medium and large businesses, linux success is also higher...

[5zerocool]

Linux usage is definitely increasing. I was a Mac fanboy for years, but then felt ripped off after I first tried a free linux distribution. I have burned and given away 25 free Ubuntu Live CDs in the past few weeks and have done many linux installs.
I refuse to do Windows "repairs" anymore, since many problems return.
The people I talk to are fed up with Windows problems and want a permanent solution.

[macogw]

and you could get a most powerful machine if you ask it with linux pre-installed...them you ask a friend a pirate XP CD and ist's done... i know that because we have done lots of those reinstalations...
Your company is doing illegal Windows XP installs? And you're confessing this in a public forum? Smart move.

[pawhtiobo]

Your company is doing illegal Windows XP installs? And you're confessing this in a public forum? Smart move.

Nope...lolll :D we don't do pirate XP installs, we just convert notebooks/netbooks from linux to MS, i was refering to that fact, the part of the pirate CD is for the home users, most of the costumers got an OEM XP CD...from where? we don't care its the client responsability, the software licensing, and the terms of services refers that point, in LARGE BLACK letters...hhhehehe... i don't want to jeopardize some years of work, for helping a complete stranger... the least we do is to install an OEM trial copy, then if the costumer want's e can buy a key from MS or the internet or after 30 days....see ya...another format C:. I'm going to correct that previous post...i don't want misunderstandings.

see ya...

[tsali]

Nope...lolll :D we don't do pirate XP installs, we just convert notebooks/netbooks from linux to MS, i was refering to that fact, the part of the pirate CD is for the home users, most of the costumers got an OEM XP CD...from where? we don't care its the client responsability, the software licensing, and the terms of services refers that point, in LARGE BLACK letters...hhhehehe... i don't want to jeopardize some years of work, for helping a complete stranger... the least we do is to install an OEM trial copy, then if the costumer want's e can buy a key from MS or the internet or after 30 days....see ya...another format C:. I'm going to correct that previous post...i don't want misunderstandings.

see ya...

Godwin's law invoked: "We were just following orders. It wasn't our responsibility."