Ubuntu_One dev heads in the clouds

[nyarnon]

In follow up to:
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1140478&highlight=cloud

I filled:
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntuone-client/+bug/375482

I recently made a clean install of the latest alpha and discovered a Directory Ubuntu One in my home directory soon to be followed by the discovery of an app with the same name in my internet menu.

Is this for real guys? I mean online storage is available everywhere and I never have found any good use for it. In fact the only useful storage IMHO is one that has superior accessibility and not being able to get to my files when I have no connectivity definitely disqualifies cloud computing.

So file sharing then? Prffllltt my webserverser do just fine thank you?

And ofcouse there is that weebit of a little no so important privacy issue.

Now if this hasent turned you of yet and you just want to have the little gadget because it's so Ubuntu, then think again.

The developers of this app obviously have no experience with Ubuntu or any Linux distro considering the fact that they actually went completely MS and used pretty folder names with spaces in them.

If this doesn't make your alarm bell sound I suggest you open a console go to your homedir and typ in cd Ubuntu One . Now consider rsyncing ssh etc. This is crap, the idea is crap, the setup is crap and the devs are crap. Unless ofcourse plans are to port this little Ubuntu sidekick to the infamous Microsoft desktop. Then all would make sence, wouldn't it.

So anyone, please chip in here and if you feel like it hit the bugsystem with your bugreport becouse thats what this is, no more and no less then a serious bug that still has the status medium and is waiting of a near future solution since may.

[phenest]

Just one question: Why does the poll differ from the thread title? Is this just about having folder names with spaces in? If so, rename them. If it's about Ubuntu One, then you don't have to use it.

Unless I've missed the point?

[ronacc]

they are just following the current fad like a herd of cattle . subscribed to your bug . I like you do not have any use for "online storage".

[raronson]

Yeah, it looks like everyone is jumping on the cloud computing bandwagon with no idea of where it's going or what it will look like--hence oddities like Ubuntu One. Cloud is the future, so everyone has to have... something.

I've written a lot about cloud and envision a future where it's ubiquitous, but I suspect that most of us will kick and scream about how we don't need it, and we'll probably continue to safely ignore it in the years to come.

What we're looking at here is just a very nascent starter piece for Ubuntu's part of the cloud pie. I support Ubuntu's decision to include these features (even if I won't use them), and I'm certainly not against them making a little money, but in the end I think that everyone should be talking to Google instead of invoking their own solutions.

If the future is cloud, and cloud is what Google does best already, then it should behoove the community of Linux distributions to team up on the effort instead of expending energy in 100 different directions that all have similar functionality. Secondly, if they beat Microsoft to the punch, then the future won't belong to them. But FOSS has to do it first, and do it best, not leaving any room for Microsoft to offer better features or fill in the gaps. At best, they'll make a clone of the FOSS cloud model, but arrive too late to the party.

So right now, while it looks odd and we probably won't use it. I still give them the thumbs up.

[nyarnon]

Just one question: Why does the poll differ from the thread title? Is this just about having folder names with spaces in? If so, rename them. If it's about Ubuntu One, then you don't have to use it.

Unless I've missed the point?

The poll derived from the tread and highlights the most important issue in it. And as for Ubuntu One I don't have to use it, I spend my time anyway testing it because that's what this is about, testing a alpha version looking for bugs and reporting them.

So to answer your last question. Yes I think you missed the point. It has nothing to do with usage but with making Ubuntu a better product.

[taavikko]

Yep, screaming in LP gives the best results, childish attitude.

the use cases for terminal is slimming down for average user, and when they actually must use it, they should know how to use "tab" for autocompletion

But agree on naming, never should something be named with whitespace on it.

[nyarnon]

I've written a lot about cloud and envision a future where it's ubiquitous, ....


---, but in the end I think that everyone should be talking to Google instead of invoking their own solutions.

If the future is cloud, and cloud is what Google does best already, then it should behoove the community of Linux distributions to team up on the effort instead of expending energy in 100 different directions that all have similar functionality.

...

So right now, while it looks odd and we probably won't use it. I still give them the thumbs up.

Scary stuff man. Every one in it right mind should run as soon as the cloud appears if it has a MS of a Google or for that matter a FOSS logo on it. I don't want to be assimilated. I don't want to become BORG

[raronson]

But agree on naming, never should something be named with whitespace on it.

:) Ahh, let 'em have their fun using computers...

I'm sure most of us will still name our directories Whatever-We-Want using the mkdir command for a long long time.

[OliW]

they are just following the current fad like a herd of cattle . subscribed to your bug . I like you do not have any use for "online storage".

Fad? Yeah. Having access to your documents wherever you are is going to go right out of fashion. Any second now... NOT</borat>


It's useful to people who would like it.
It can make Canonical money and believe it or not, Canonical making money is in *our* interest too.
Just because it's there doesn't mean you have to use it. The client is tiny and can be removed.
It's also a selling point to gain more market share.


On topic, I completely agree about the directory naming. It should be "ubuntuone" or even just "one".

I don't want to become BORGWhat you want is irrelevant.

[slakkie]

or ubuntu1

uone

mmm, anything but the space. I lolled at a bug today. Doesn't happen much.

[raronson]

Scary stuff man. Every one in it right mind should run as soon as the cloud appears if it has a MS of a Google or for that matter a FOSS logo on it. I don't want to be assimilated. I don't want to become BORG

Privacy is certainly an issue. Smart people need to start talking NOW about safeguards, mandatory encryption, corporate and governments limitations, user rights, and true open standards compliance. Just one more reason why it's going to take more effort than any one entity can handle alone, or make good decisions about.

[nyarnon]

Fad? Yeah. Having access to your documents wherever you are is going to go right out of fashion. Any second now... NOT</borat>


It's useful to people who would like it.
It can make Canonical money and believe it or not, Canonical making money is in *our* interest too.
Just because it's there doesn't mean you have to use it. The client is tiny and can be removed.
It's also a selling point to gain more market share.


On topic, I completely agree about the directory naming. It should be "ubuntuone" or even just "one".

Nice list, I've seen that before, let me think? O yeah there was this company who wanted to rewrite the way email works. For years their autmagically inserted tagline was dash dash instead of dash dash space and it was called a feature instead of a bug, Man that was fun, till **** hit the fan and they where forced to reconsider by the community. We have standards and these standards are there for a reason. Work arrounds ALWAYS backfire.

And you should check who you are quoting.

[nyarnon]

Privacy is certainly an issue. Smart people need to start talking NOW about safeguards, mandatory encryption, corporate and governments limitations, user rights, and true open standards compliance. Just one more reason why it's going to take more effort than any one entity can handle alone, or make good decisions about.

Well thank god you see that issue because what I envision is de pendulum motion where we go from an uncontrolled free internet to a restrictive and surpressing one. I'm not so stupid to think it should be without rules, but bigbrother has no business in my bedroom. Mail laws should apply automagically to all electronic traffic too. Nobody should be allowed to read your mail without proper court order. And should be punsihed for doing so.

[Jay_Bee]

There's already a folder with a space char in the name by default in my language so I got used to it and don't mind the Ubuntu One having a space in the name. I can see how it could be a problem though.
As for the service itself, I find it useful and I'm looking forward to it being expanded to include many other uses such as storing contants and tomboy notes (actually I already store tomboy notes on UOne via tomboy's sync with folder feature)

[phenest]

So to answer your last question. Yes I think you missed the point. It has nothing to do with usage but with making Ubuntu a better product.

Maybe I've got too used to changing something I don't like if I don't consider it a bug.

If you're porting some one from Windows and have to explain how to use the terminal regarding spaces in folder/file names, then I understand. But if the person you're porting has already used the command line in Windows, then they already know the problems with these spaces. After all, this same problem occurs with Windows.

Now I've read your bug report (I didn't before), I can appreciate the problem a space can introduce. The same can be said for capitalization as most filling systems are case sensitive.

I think my misunderstanding was the thread title. I don't have a problem with Ubuntu One as a project. I just won't use it. As for the space in the folder name, then that must be changed.

[ronacc]

Fad? Yeah. Having access to your documents wherever you are is going to go right out of fashion. Any second now... NOT</borat>


It's useful to people who would like it.
It can make Canonical money and believe it or not, Canonical making money is in *our* interest too.
Just because it's there doesn't mean you have to use it. The client is tiny and can be removed.
It's also a selling point to gain more market share.


On topic, I completely agree about the directory naming. It should be "ubuntuone" or even just "one".

What you want is irrelevant.

Access to my data anywhere ? yes its called a flash drive or a dvd . I will not list all of my objections to online storage and or the "cloud" lest I be called a troll . I will however say that I was around when "computing" meant sitting at a dumb terminal ( that is what they were called ) connected to a mainframe "somewhere" and there was a reason that model of computing went the way of the Dodo . You may have assured conectivity everywhere you go, I don't . What I want is HIGHLY relevant to ME .

[nyarnon]

Maybe I've got too used to changing something I don't like if I don't consider it a bug.

If you're porting some one from Windows and have to explain how to use the terminal regarding spaces in folder/file names, then I understand. But if the person you're porting has already used the command line in Windows, then they already know the problems with these spaces. After all, this same problem occurs with Windows.


But how many people do you know that use the console under windows. But most system critical task under linux are done better and faster by the commandline and just that little issue of file transfer is probably the best example and exactly there is where the problems will occur. Bring me those dev's off with their heads :-)

[nyarnon]

I will however say that I was around when "computing" meant sitting at a dumb terminal ( that is what they were called ) connected to a mainframe "somewhere"... .

Didn't do that much though had to report sick to often because I had to keep that 16KB memory pack firmly attached to my zx81 so the ram wouldn't flush :-)

As I see it we will soon end up in some museum keeping an old viditel system running for the cloud controlled masses to gaze at and who knows recieve instructions :-)

[raronson]

@ nyarnon

Absolutely. Corporations, governments, or anyone for that matter has no business reading my email other than the intended recipient.

Though consider: things are a mess right now. Anyone can read your email, compromise your identity, or steal your financial credentials. A future cloud with the strongest encryption and sanest laws might actually make things better. I have an optimistic vision of the future because I think that there's a lot of room for improvement which technology can address.

But the problem with the Internet isn't so much the limitations of the technologies involved, it's limited by our own nature and the desperate state of world. We need to build a better world before we can build a better Internet.

The future need not be dystopian, and we need not be Borg. It just takes people willing to fight the fight. Glad to see you in the mix.

[OliW]

Access to my data anywhere ? yes its called a flash drive or a dvd . I will not list all of my objections to online storage and or the "cloud" lest I be called a troll . I will however say that I was around when "computing" meant sitting at a dumb terminal ( that is what they were called ) connected to a mainframe "somewhere" and there was a reason that model of computing went the way of the Dodo . You may have assured conectivity everywhere you go, I don't .

Firstly terminal clients have been replaced with "thin" clients. The idea is more than just alive; it's growing. Let's not dawdle on that though.

My key point was #3. Just because there's a app or feature installed by default, doesn't mean you have to use it. And just because you don't want or need to use it, doesn't make it a fad. I don't own a stethoscope. Seriously useful to the right people but no use to me.

Dropbox (the lead innovator in the space) is amazingly useful for keeping multiple computers' (and now servers') files at the same versions. Version control isn't anything new but what this offers is a lot more convenient (to average users) than the average VCS.

So if you do hop around, these clients are really handy. And will be until the next evolution of user storage.

What I want is HIGHLY relevant to ME .That was in reply to nyarnon's "I don't want to become BORG". Just Star Trek banter. Nothing more.

---

Nice list, I've seen that before, let me think? O yeah there was this company who wanted to rewrite the way email works. For years their autmagically inserted tagline was dash dash instead of dash dash space and it was called a feature instead of a bug, Man that was fun, till **** hit the fan and they where forced to reconsider by the community. We have standards and these standards are there for a reason. Work arrounds ALWAYS backfire.

And you should check who you are quoting.

Perhaps you should check what you're quoting. I'm talking about Canonical providing services to people on an Ubuntu desktop. You're talking about standards.

On the topic of should-it-be-a-space-or-a-dash-or-an-underscore, I've already said I think a space it stupid. I agree with you.

[ibizatunes]

I argree with the naming convention issue maybe ubunutu_one or - or something!

Personally I think its a SWEET little application,
i will be having 10GB of data, and will be backing up all my photo, and other critical documents!!

Personally, I think this will give ubuntu an edge over its competitors
Online storage before hasnt been as easy as this simply dropping files into a folder. Done!!

Regarding data security, well i'm not really going to comment! BUT NOTHING is 100% secure!!

Millions of people have facebook, bebo, myspace and post pictures personal data into the 'cloud' that is the Internet, what is the difference?

People email your CV across to a company across the Internet, it has everything about you!! You dont need to be a qenius to intercept that email!!
I bet 99.9% of people don't encrypted it! My point is that having online storage space isnt going to make users any less secure!! It just gives canonical a revenue stream, and users safe backup of data

[phenest]

I will however say that I was around when "computing" meant sitting at a dumb terminal ( that is what they were called ) connected to a mainframe "somewhere" and there was a reason that model of computing went the way of the Dodo

I was young, but I can remember those days. Can you enlighten me as to why this model of computing died? I don't want a debate, I really want to know why.

[OliW]

Can you enlighten me as to why this model of computing died? I don't want a debate, I really want to know why.

As I said in reply to him earlier, the idea hasn't died, it just changed.

Centralised thin computing deployments have massive benefits over fat clients when you're talking about more than a couple of dozen PCs. Scale it up even further and you start to save a lot of money (through reduced hardware costs, lower power costs and less time needed to maintain otherwise variable hardware/software issues).

They're not perfect but neither solution is. But thin clients are more than enough for modern general computing.

[ronacc]

That was in reply to nyarnon's "I don't want to become BORG". Just Star Trek banter. Nothing more.
the comment still stands . what HE wants is highly relevant to HIM. and I understood the reference, I watched TOS when it was new , and yes I know that the borg reference is from STNG .

I was young, but I can remember those days. Can you enlighten me as to why this model of computing died? I don't want a debate, I really want to know why.
there were many reasons , basicly it was cheaper and more convienent to have the apps running on PC's when they became available and I do not see the cloud changing that , doubtless there will be areas where the cloud makes sense but I doubt it will become the dominant mode .

[zekopeko]

In follow up to:
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1140478&highlight=cloud

I filled:
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntuone-client/+bug/375482

I recently made a clean install of the latest alpha and discovered a Directory Ubuntu One in my home directory soon to be followed by the discovery of an app with the same name in my internet menu.

Is this for real guys? I mean online storage is available everywhere and I never have found any good use for it. In fact the only useful storage IMHO is one that has superior accessibility and not being able to get to my files when I have no connectivity definitely disqualifies cloud computing.

Just because you don't have any use or imagination for such service doesn't mean there isn't one. Second of all you probably missed the part where U1 syncs (copies) content from U1 folder to the "cloud". That means you have access to all of your files even without network connection.


So file sharing then? Prffllltt my webserverser do just fine thank you?

And ofcouse there is that weebit of a little no so important privacy issue.

Most people don't have webservers nor want them. But they do want to sync and share data.
On the privacy part: The connection to the servers is encrypted and I'm betting so is the space on the servers.


Now if this hasent turned you of yet and you just want to have the little gadget because it's so Ubuntu, then think again.

The developers of this app obviously have no experience with Ubuntu or any Linux distro considering the fact that they actually went completely MS and used pretty folder names with spaces in them.

You're right. It's so hard to click on a folder with my mouse when it has a space in it. And if you are going to go all "terminal bla bla bla" then it should be expected that advanced users know about '\ ' and TAB completion.

If this doesn't make your alarm bell sound I suggest you open a console go to your homedir and typ in cd Ubuntu One . Now consider rsyncing ssh etc. This is crap, the idea is crap, the setup is crap and the devs are crap. Unless ofcourse plans are to port this little Ubuntu sidekick to the infamous Microsoft desktop. Then all would make sence, wouldn't it.

So nice seeing somebody attacking Ubuntu developers just because they put a space in a folder name.

So anyone, please chip in here and if you feel like it hit the bugsystem with your bugreport becouse thats what this is, no more and no less then a serious bug that still has the status medium and is waiting of a near future solution since may.

If I was a dev I would completely ignore you (but I bet U1 dev don't have that option since they are Canonical employees and have to listen to every whining request). You are rude and abusive for the service you receive for free.

[OliW]

the comment still stands . what HE wants is highly relevant to HIM.Sure... And I'd understand the objection iff Canonical were moving /home off to UbuntuOne servers.

Even with the client shipping in the default install, he still gets what he wants. Nobody is forcing him, you or any of us to use cloud storage (be that Canonical's or another).

Again, even if you don't want it for yourself, I think we should encourage unobtrusive revenue streams like this. Paid developers, servers and support staff aren't free and I'd be shocked if donations and support contracts came even close to covering them.

[plun]

Access to my data anywhere ? yes its called a flash drive or a dvd . I will not list all of my objections to online storage and or the "cloud" lest I be called a troll .

Hi ronacc....

Maybe a small RMS and not a "troll"...??? :lolflag:

After my "big bang" with a broken disk during Jaunty development I moved all my personal backups to my ISPs cloud store, 10GB for free.

I have also opened a Ubuntu One account and it works just fine.

I can see great benefits with a "cloud" for an average user...


PS I took my heck to server to the recycling station ;) DS

--

[ronacc]

@oliw I said it makes sense for some , I never said cannonical shouldn't include it or shouldn't make money . I merely noted that I had no use for it . as to the "space in file name" that IMHO is a bug .

Hi Plun :) I still use dvd's for BU (small dataset) and also cross sync between 2 seperate machines .

[phenest]

Hi ronacc....

Maybe a small RMS and not a "troll"...??? :lolflag:

After my "big bang" with a broken disk during Jaunty development I moved all my personal backups to my ISPs cloud store, 10GB for free.

I have also opened a Ubuntu One account and it works just fine.

I can see great benefits with a "cloud" for an average user...


PS I took my heck to server to the recycling station ;) DS

--

Please list the 'benefits' plun. What happens when your ISP loses your data, or their server gets hacked and you find your data was 'stolen' months ago. I've never had a hard drive fail. But then I don't usually keep them long enough. Perhaps you've had one of my old ones, plun?

[plun]

Please list the 'benefits' plun. What happens when your ISP loses your data, or their server gets hacked and you find your data was 'stolen' months ago. I've never had a hard drive fail. But then I don't usually keep them long enough. Perhaps you've had one of my old ones, plun?

Well... ronacc knows about my "big bang" during Jaunty EXT4 tests....;)

I dont think that my PCs crashes at the same time as my ISP servers..

For an average use its about to save some documents, digital photos and maybe some settings and the cloud is superb for that.:)


(I am not a p2p saver with my PCs full of stolen goods)

[OliW]

Please list the 'benefits' plun. What happens when your ISP loses your data, or their server gets hacked and you find your data was 'stolen' months ago. I've never had a hard drive fail. But then I don't usually keep them long enough. Perhaps you've had one of my old ones, plun?

WORM media, RAID and local server backups are great but they won't protect you from fire and theft unless you spend thousands securing them against both.

Proper off-site backups are getting cheaper and some are fairly heavily encrypted... But they're not simple to set up.

Clients like UbuntuOne and Dropbox offer you a really simple solution and (esp Dropbox) provide a lot of useful consumer features like being able to share your photos straight from a local directory, and having the right price points to be effectively affordable.

[scottuss]

You missed the "I don't care" option.

If you don't want to use it, don't use it. If you don't want it on your system, remove it.

And come on, everyone uses spaces in their folders / file names, right?

I mean, sure you could stick to "The Linux Way" but it feels unnatural sometimes. Pretty / meaningful file names won't end the world.

[zekopeko]

Please list the 'benefits' plun. What happens when your ISP loses your data, or their server gets hacked and you find your data was 'stolen' months ago. I've never had a hard drive fail. But then I don't usually keep them long enough. Perhaps you've had one of my old ones, plun?

This was addressed to plun but I feel compelled to pitch in:

Data integrity is far more secure online then on your computer. Your computer is housed in one location and it's a single point of failure. Now you could have data redundancy on your own but then it's the question of economics. How much are you willing to spend (time and money) to have the same level of redundancy that a online backup company provides?

On the issues of privacy:

The connection to U1 servers is encrypted. And I'm betting so is the storage. I doubt that U1 devs can look at your data since that would seriously damage their image as a secure storage facility. Your server can also get hacked and not many people have the knowledge or money to set up a dedicated secure backup server.

U1 is about convenience to the end user. I don't want to spend massive amount of money and time on setting up something that is offered for a better price and with minimal effort on my part to make it work.

[phenest]

(I am not a p2p saver with my PCs full of stolen goods)

I wasn't suggesting that, and I don't know why you said it. I'm not like that either. But I don't have anything on my computer that I need to share, and some stuff would breach copyright if I did.

[plun]

I wasn't suggesting that, and I don't know why you said it. I'm not like that either. But I don't have anything on my computer that I need to share, and some stuff would breach copyright if I did.

Well... thats maybe a problem...:lolflag:

A "crazy tanker" with a disk or 2 with Terabytes of stolen goods maybe
have trouble wit this ?


A normal user just have a few GB which is important....!!!!

[phenest]

This was addressed to plun but I feel compelled to pitch in:

I didn't join this thread to debate cloud computing. I'm simply asking users about the comments they've made to better understand the subject matter. There are too many pro's and con's regarding cloud computing to debate what is the best method.

[phenest]

Well... thats maybe a problem...:lolflag:

Not problem here. I have the originals. No loss there.

A "crazy tanker" with a disk or 2 with Terabytes of stolen goods maybe
have trouble wit this ?

That'll teach them for being dishonest.

A normal user just have a few GB which is important....!!!!

Hardly worth worrying about. I'll just back up to a DVD.

[plun]

Hardly worth worrying about. I'll just back up to a DVD.

Well.....

Todays users are too lazy with this and therefore its much easier to just upload to a "cload".

A netboook also don't have a CD/DVD writer......

;)

[zekopeko]

I didn't join this thread to debate cloud computing. I'm simply asking users about the comments they've made to better understand the subject matter. There are too many pro's and con's regarding cloud computing to debate what is the best method.

I responded to what you asked: What are the benefits?
And what exactly are we talking about if not cloud computing in the form of U1?

[nyarnon]

If I was a dev I would completely ignore you (but I bet U1 dev don't have that option since they are Canonical employees and have to listen to every whining request). You are rude and abusive for the service you receive for free.

I'm airing my humble opinion during the requested testing of this app I do for free. If they cant stand a bit of sarcasm they shouldn't ask people to test and air their opinion. And sorry if I get a bit sarcastic if I see developers making a typical nono just because they obviously never used a command line. Wonder how they develop a sever app without it anyway?

This whole thing is starting to become the same story as with cars, before we had a normal motor with your everyday components and when something went wrong we knew where to look and replace. Then came te devs telling us how we could tune them better and we believed them, We bought shine new cars and suddenly we started having windows opening themselves, doors locking themselves, claxons that honked when they wanted and nobody was able to figure out why. ;-) Thats what you get if you put your dev on a pedestal instead of kicking ***.

And to be honnest my greates motivation to deliver clean apps is just preventing that possible rant :-)

[nyarnon]

Well.....

Todays users are too lazy with this and therefore its much easier to just upload to a "cload".

A netboook also don't have a CD/DVD writer......

;)

Get real, I only use external dvd writers there not much biggen then the dvd nowadays and cost next to nothing and just like the usb stick they are so handy just used mine today with a customer who had one failing.

[zekopeko]

I'm airing my humble opinion during the requested testing of this app I do for free. If they cant stand a bit of sarcasm they shouldn't ask people to test and air their opinion. And sorry if I get a bit sarcastic if I see developers making a typical nono just because they obviously never used a command line. Wonder how they develop a sever app without it anyway?

Do re-read your comments on the bug report. You comment on it (forget about being polite) and then post here mere hours later. You didn't even try to gives the devs the time to respond.
Not to mention that there are some 900 bugs reported against U1 client.

This whole thing is starting to become the same story as with cars, before we had a normal motor with your everyday components and when something went wrong we knew where to look and replace. Then came te devs telling us how we could tune them better and we believed them, We bought shine new cars and suddenly we started having windows opening themselves, doors locking themselves, claxons that honked when they wanted and nobody was able to figure out why. ;-) Thats what you get if you put your dev on a pedestal instead of kicking ***.

Welcome to the software world. We call them bugs here. And I for one know that developers are on a timetable with limited resources ,so perhaps fixing loss of data or bad syncs warrants a higher degree of attention from the devs.

And to be honnest my greates motivation to deliver clean apps is just preventing that possible rant :-)

No what you did is abuse your ranting privilege. The whole post is a text book self-righteous rant. The name of the thread is a great indicator.
Cut the devs some slack. There are far more important bugs to fix. And if you are dabbling with the terminal then you should know the basics of how it works.

[ronacc]

Clouds/online storage boils down to personal preference , whitespace in the file name does not , when the devs violate long standing linux tradition/convention they should expect screams just like they got over the ctrl>alt>bkspc thing in jaunty .

[scaine]

A little bit over-zealous maybe, but a great thread guys. I was initially against U1, but having read this through, I'll give it a go (the free service anyway). I didn't, for example, realise that U1 syncs data - I thought it was more like a webdav connector to online storage. Very nice.

I agree that a space in the name is a pain, but think people are getting a little too upset about it. Doesn't your music collection have spaces in it? Have you honestly ripped all your music with special character substitution? And my rsnapshot set up doesn't have any problems with spaces...

My two biggest concerns are price and security. It would be great if you could set up your private directory "persistently" with regard to U1. That way, anything you copy to your U1 folder from Private will be encrypted BEFORE it's sent to U1, ensuring that even if U1 is hacked, all the files are encrypted. That might devalue the service to be used from other locations, of course, but if you consider using U1 purely as a peace-of-mind back up for your Ubuntu PC/Laptop, then job done.

As for price, Humyo blows this out of the water. I started a thread on cloud storage prices here a couple of weeks back, for anyone interested :
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1222306

[nyarnon]

Do re-read your comments on the bug report. You comment on it (forget about being polite) and then post here mere hours later. You didn't even try to gives the devs the time to respond.


In may they promised a near future solution? It's august if you hadn't noticed.


Welcome to the software world. We call them bugs here. And I for one know that developers are on a timetable with limited resources ,so perhaps fixing loss of data or bad syncs warrants a higher degree of attention from the devs.


How can anything then the basic frame with a weakness be of low attention value? I'm a developer myself, just had to fix a website that was run over a cms and had a weight of 220 mb ex database overhead, with a few simple php routines I changed it to 17Mb injection proof webside code without any external changes. Get my drift. You pay for early bad decisions.


No what you did is abuse your ranting privilege. The whole post is a text book self-righteous rant. The name of the thread is a great indicator.
Cut the devs some slack. There are far more important bugs to fix. And if you are dabbling with the terminal then you should know the basics of how it works.


Were not here to cut them slack we are here to point out problems. I will try to do it in limeric rimes next time. And what you call terminal basics are stupid workarounds to make up for the mess of stupid devs and they will accumulate untill everything breaks unless we make a point. Right here where we are supposed to.

:guitar::guitar::guitar:

[nyarnon]

Doesn't your music collection have spaces in it? Have you honestly ripped all your music with special character substitution?

RU calling me a criminal? ;-) And no I do no spaces especially on testing platforms it is good practise to stick to conventions if not you get more pain then your in for. It looks so stupid reporting a bug and finding out that you had this stupid dir or file with a space in a name. You know what a dev will tell you :-)

Yes right the'll send you to that other OS where they do use them becouse everything is broken there already.
:lolflag:

[taavikko]

No what you did is abuse your ranting privilege. The whole post is a text book self-righteous rant. The name of the thread is a great indicator.
Cut the devs some slack. There are far more important bugs to fix. And if you are dabbling with the terminal then you should know the basics of how it works.

+1 Agree 100%

As long as you don't pay for this service, you have no freaking right to yell "or dabble limeric rimes" as you please!

This thread should be locked.

[zekopeko]

In may they promised a near future solution? It's august if you hadn't noticed.

August is for many things in Ubuntu. And it's a freakin' folder name. I would rather have critical bugs fixed that could lead to data loss then nitpick about names. I think developers know better then you where their priorities are.

How can anything then the basic frame with a weakness be of low attention value? I'm a developer myself, just had to fix a website that was run over a cms and had a weight of 220 mb ex database overhead, with a few simple php routines I changed it to 17Mb injection proof webside code without any external changes. Get my drift. You pay for early bad decisions.

Why yes you do. But I wouldn't put a folder name in that category.

Were not here to cut them slack we are here to point out problems. I will try to do it in limeric rimes next time. And what you call terminal basics are stupid workarounds to make up for the mess of stupid devs and they will accumulate untill everything breaks unless we make a point. Right here where we are supposed to.

You probably missed the part you being an a** toward developers. I don't have a problem with people reporting bugs, but then don't be a prick when you do. And next time use the /sarcasm tag since you are obviously very bad at conveying it over the internet.

Please do continue reporting bugs since it benefits all of us. But lose the self-righteous attitude. Devs are only human. And you were also once a "stupid" dev.

[Seventh Reign]

I was just introduced to Dropbox a few days ago, and I dont know how I lived without it. Brings back memories of my old X-Drive .. but way better. I use it to share files with a friend in New Zealand who's connection wont allow her many other options for downloading semi-large files. FTP would probably be another option .. but Dropbox is 1000x easier.

It's also no doubt extended the life of my flash drives exponentially.

[nyarnon]

Why yes you do. But I wouldn't put a folder name in that category.



But it does if everything evolves around it like in this app. I'm not surprised the issue hasn't been solved yet and I bet the 'but it has to look nice for noobs' argument isn't the least weighing factor but good second will be that changing a once choosen direction is hard, very hard in coding and often leads to rewriting sections and then dropping everything to start from scratch.

So what I really really would like to know who came up with these names and thought it wouldn't become a problem. This is so incomprehensible to me that it provoked me. And if you like to have a look in my posting history then you will see that this is not my common posting.

If someone is pointing you out that this is a problem in may, and you aknowledge this and promise a solution and yet push it to the testing communities desktops in august ......

I think there is nothing wrong with canonical trying to make a buck, great, go for it, when its something usefull I will be glad to pay for it, but dont try to rewrite standards. Create new once add to the whole. As the Great Lama said, If you cannot help people at least dont hurt them.

I always have a critical eye on Google but I must admit that I admire the way they go about their developments. How they respect conventions and try to build upon them. And at least when they admit a mistake they correct it, asap.

Now imho if Canonical needs a spaceable fs they should create one, but not break old once and hand a couple of stupid workarounds to the users who suffer from their bad decisions. It doesn't work that way.

As for the remarks about console users I have read serveral times now. Please do remember that even if you choose to use it through an X based shell, Linux is a console based OS and does not need weird work arrounds for mess made by X and other users. We console users are perfectly able to create our own mess with terminal coding :-)

[ronacc]

+1 Agree 100%

As long as you don't pay for this service, you have no freaking right to yell "or dabble limeric rimes" as you please!

This thread should be locked.

save yourself time , just ask the moderators to ban everyone you disagree with.

[taavikko]

save yourself time , just ask the moderators to ban everyone you disagree with.

Why? At least I try to act like an adult and don't add people to ignore list/ or ask threads moved/closed by reporting posts.
Made an remark that this thread should be closed that this wouldn't turn ugly.
Which it is mostly likely to turn... :(

Like I said on my first post that "I agreed on the naming , that it should follow traditional naming convention"

With whom I'm disagreeing?

[nyarnon]

save yourself time , just ask the moderators to ban everyone you disagree with.

Kewl I hope he also thinks of asking the moderators to ban every one that doesn't pay for a product before commenting on it. That would create a whole new source of income for canonical. Pay before you test. We could create a dropbox for the money on the desktop call it Money Pit the only setback would be a cp -f Money Money Pit :-)

and what to think of scp canonical@user-desktop:Money Pit ~/Vault

[OliW]

!stop

Argl. Where's ubottu when you need it?

I'm not a moderator but I think we've all said about as much as anybody can say without calling each other things we shouldn't... And some of us have said more.

We're not getting anywhere so why don't we drop it before a moderator has to step in and formally delete it (failing its original purpose to get attention from the developers)?

This thread is no more! It has ceased to be! It's expired and gone to meet its maker! It's a stiff! Bereft of life, It rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed it to the top of the karmic forum, it'd be pushing up the daisies! Its metabolic processes are now 'istory! It's off the twig! It's kicked the bucket, It's shuffled off its mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibile!! THIS IS AN EX-THREAD!!

Or at least it should be. Those in disagreement, please resurrect it and flame on. :lolflag:

[nyarnon]

!stop

Argl. Where's ubottu when you need it?

[copyright violation deleted]

Or at least it should be. Those in disagreement, please resurrect it and flame on. :lolflag:

I wonder if Godwin's law can be applied on a call for moderators? I've been a usenet despammer for a long time running my own cancelbot on one of the more difficult hierarchies nl.* and I think as you are the second one trying to call in the squad I propose a Quirk's Exception here. This thread is alive and kicking. Anyone who says differently is indeed deceased.

[zekopeko]

*snip*

If you don't know when to quote or escape in command line or as a programmer then you are just a sucky power user/developer.

BTW your whole "use UbuntuOne" argument falls flat once you try this:

cd UbuntuOne/Shared with Me/My mega important essay.odt

And another questionable argument from you: How do you name the "Shared with Me" folder while making it appear good for users and following "convention": SharedWithMe, Shared_with_Me,Shared-with-Me?
And file systems have no problem using spaces only sloppy programmers.

[Frem]

Did I miss something?

The concept behind Ubuntu One is fine. I started using DropBox a few months back, and it's extremely handy if you use multiple computers. It even kept all my work to the minute safe when an ext4 filesystem died on me. It's far more convenient than using flash drives, email, or CD-Rs to move data around. One might even say it's the future.

The folder name "Ubuntu One" is also fine. This isn't 1999 where random applications would freak out over spaces in file paths. Even command line tools cope with it. Unless you're a developer trying to keep a project in the Ubuntu One folder (Though why would you? That's what Subversion and Git are for), it's a non-issue.

Really, it would be better to complain that there's not an option to change the sync folder.

[nyarnon]

If you don't know when to quote or escape in command line or as a programmer then you are just a sucky power user/developer.

BTW your whole "use UbuntuOne" argument falls flat once you try this:

cd UbuntuOne/Shared with Me/My mega important essay.odt

And another questionable argument from you: How do you name the "Shared with Me" folder while making it appear good for users and following "convention": SharedWithMe, Shared_with_Me,Shared-with-Me?
And file systems have no problem using spaces only sloppy programmers.

OMG your completely right, why didn't I see that?

[cszikszoy]

And file systems have no problem using spaces only sloppy programmers.

+1 The system isn't broken -- Lazy programmers are.

And seriously? It's 2009 and you're asserting that having spaces in a folder name is a major flaw? This thread is just about 100% ridiculous. If you don't like the idea of Ubuntu One then don't use it! And people playing the "privacy" card... really? Do you think anybody else really cares about "GroceryList.odt" or "cool-song.mp3"? If you're really that woried about security, use some common sense. Here's an idea, don't share anything that contains private data!

[taavikko]

Kewl I hope he also thinks of asking the moderators to ban every one that doesn't pay for a product before commenting on it.

Nice, snappy comeback and a poor argument.

Even though you are a tester, in somehow needed position, you still don't have any rights to yell to anyone. Including me.

Peace.

[nyarnon]

Nice, snappy comeback and a poor argument.

Even though you are a tester, in somehow needed position, you still don't have any rights to yell to anyone. Including me.

Peace.

If you show me where I yelled at you or even called you a name or anything I will be very glad to offer you my humble apologies.

[MaX]

They should have named the services something other than Ubuntu One in the first place. But for now I'll settle for UbuntuOne in the folder and Shared in the subfolder. Why spaces?

[zekopeko]

They should have named the services something other than Ubuntu One in the first place. But for now I'll settle for UbuntuOne in the folder and Shared in the subfolder. Why spaces?

Shared? What does that mean? Are you the one sharing or are they shared with you?

EDIT: I haven't tried that one so I'm going by name only as to what it does.

[nyarnon]

Hmmm finaly decided to do some reading up on the subject and stumbled upon some amazing stuf that might explain why since may nothing much happened except for it being launched to our desktops, you might want to start
reading here:

Linux Magazine (http://www.linux-magazine.com/Online/News/Dropbox-Clone-Ubuntu-One)

and follow the links on the bottom of the article. IMHO this project is tainted.

[zekopeko]

and follow the links on the bottom of the article. IMHO this project is tainted.

Tainted by what?

[scaine]

Linux Magazine (http://www.linux-magazine.com/Online/News/Dropbox-Clone-Ubuntu-One)

and follow the links on the bottom of the article. IMHO this project is tainted.

Can you elaborate? I don't see anything that "taints" U1 in that article, beyond what has already been mentioned already :

1. Closed source. Well, yeah, cos it's based on Amazon's services which are closed source.
2 Price compared to Drop Box. Yep, it's more expensive.
3. Use of the "Ubuntu" brand. Yep, but it's their name, they're entitled, although it does seem to be against the Ubuntu "philosophy".

[nyarnon]

Tainted by what?

By a complete and utter disregard of the Ubuntu principle. Love Peace and Harmony. This starts of with the disagreement of the developer with the Ubuntu community and ends for me with the disrespect towards Common Linux Conventions. I have just removed the client inclusive it's gnome brother.

May it rest in peace (the R($(%$ piece of /&(45) :lolflag:

No really as I said I have no problem with canonical making a buck but I can come up with better ideas then exploiting hypes. I think people should get around the table look what happened here, see how it was possible, learn from the experience, go on a bonding trip and get to work with new fresh and good ideas. This carries the DISASTER flag all the way.

And yes I have ideas and yes I will launch a cloud worthy one. Offer a cloud backup of all cfg files of a users desktop that can be derived from the standard repros, combined with a repro list of all installed software to guarantee a system rebuild after dissaster. Opt-IN - Opt-Out ofcourse. As this most probably will be less then 2 gig you can offer it for free, and beside that you might offer a pay service for any directory a user would also like to have backupped/synchronised.

[zekopeko]

By a complete and utter disregard of the Ubuntu principle. Love Peace and Harmony. This starts of with the disagreement of the developer with the Ubuntu community and ends for me with the disrespect towards Common Linux Conventions. I have just removed the client inclusive it's gnome brother.

May it rest in peace (the R($(%$ piece of /&(45)

So now you have a problem with the name?!?! Here's a tip: Trying to point to another "flaw" isn't going to strengthen your "spaces are bad" argument. I'm sure there is a
fancy name from argumentative logic for that.
And I yet have to see this "Common Linux Conventions" being violated by U1 outside of a user's home folder (you know, the one where users can name their files as they wish).

No really as I said I have no problem with canonical making a buck but I can come up with better ideas then exploiting hypes. I think people should get around the table look what happened here, see how it was possible, learn from the experience, go on a bonding trip and get to work with new fresh and good ideas. This carries the DISASTER flag all the way.

What happened that warrants a "round table" talk? Please do tell since the rest of us have no idea what you're talking about.

And yes I have ideas and yes I will launch a cloud worthy one. Offer a cloud backup of all cfg files of a users desktop that can be derived from the standard repros, combined with a repro list of all installed software to guarantee a system rebuild after dissaster. Opt-IN - Opt-Out ofcourse. As this most probably will be less then 2 gig you can offer it for free, and beside that you might offer a pay service for any directory a user would also like to have backupped/synchronised.

Good luck competing with Ubuntu One. Since they are planning to add those features(and more) in future versions of Ubuntu One.
I'm sure yours will be much more prominent and better. /sarcasm

[nyarnon]

Please do tell since the rest of us have no idea what you're talking about.


Us? You are representative for who exactly?

You keep coming back with personal attacks and I mind. Especially as you don't seem to bring any argument into this discussion. Obviously you have demonstrated a complete lack of sence and knowledge about the subject so from here on I will ignore your ramblings unless you state a clear formulated argument.

Now as for spaces in directories and filenames. It is a general convention to avoid them due to the simple fact that in a console we use the space character to separate arguments. The oldest workaround used is declaring a string by placing lines with spaces between " where an argument is concerned. And that works fine except for filenames and foldernames. Now even for this a workaround exsist namely the escape character represented by \. But this has some nastiness in the sence that your code becomes less readable and when writing batch files or programs it all becomes a mess and is prone to hours of debugging and sweat.

Hence, nonono no use no spaces.

It's the number one on a good coders list.

Now I don't really care if you feel offended or for whatever reason you decide to spite rhetoric here. But arguments can only be countered by so called counter argument. Thats another convention. I wish you a good night.

[Merk42]

Us? You are representative for who exactly?

Well can you explain it to me too then?
Is your only problem with Ubuntu One the space in the folder name?

[cariboo907]

This thread is closed for 24 hours to let things cool down a bit.

[cariboo907]

This thread is reopened with a bump tp bring it back to the first page. :)

[mpt]

Now imho if Canonical needs a spaceable fs they should create one

How would “a spaceable fs” differ from ext3 or ext4? Both those filesystems allow spaces in filenames. If you do not want this, perhaps you should develop a filesystem that does not allow it? If other developers agree with you, they could collaborate with you on implementing that filesystem.

Please do remember that even if you choose to use it through an X based shell, Linux is a console based OS

You are mistaken. Linux is the kernel used by the Ubuntu operating system. Ubuntu, like every other mass-market OS, is graphical by default. The number of people who actually “choose to use it through an X based shell” is miniscule, compared with the number of people who do not know — and should never need to know — that the choice exists.

If you want a console-based OS, I suggest Ubuntu Server.

By a complete and utter disregard of the Ubuntu principle. “Love Peace and Harmony”. This starts of with the disagreement of the developer with the Ubuntu community

First, the developer did not disagree with you (though personally I think he should have). Second, even if he had disagreed with you, you are not the Ubuntu community. And third, even if the current Ubuntu community was of a particular opinion, that wouldn’t necessarily mean Ubuntu One developers would be right to follow it.

and ends for me with the disrespect towards Common Linux Conventions.

I find it curious that you claim (in the bug report) that this is a problem for “customers when I port them from windows”. As I’m sure you know, Windows has been using appropriate spaces in the names of vital folders for fourteen years now: “Program Files” since Windows 95, and “Documents and Settings” in Windows 2000 and XP. Were your customers using Windows 3.1 or earlier? Or are you expecting them to learn terminal commands on Ubuntu when they did not have to on Windows?

Your comment about “a console based OS” suggests the latter. I hope this does not mean you are giving them the impression that Ubuntu is harder to use than Windows was. Maybe one day we’ll have something like Automator (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automator_(software)), so that tasks like these can be set up more quickly and easily than they can in a console.

[nyarnon]

@mpt

You didn't get really much of what I was talking about and are making a lot of wrong presumptions.

Most important of all the fact that you try to establish the fact that linux would *not* be a console based OS, which you try to prove by the ridiculous argument that Ubuntu would be used graphical only. Ubuntu does have a server edition and a very strong one I might add, my own VPS is running Ubuntu Hardy and I can assure you there is nothing graphical on it.

Bottom line, I think that your line of thinking doesn't differ much of that of the developer that cooked up the space in that dir name. Then again he probably was developing for windows :-)

[phenest]

It has nothing to do with usage but with making Ubuntu a better product.

By removing a space?! I think it's some one else with their head in the clouds. "Ubuntu is for humans", so now you have a human readable folder name.

Hey! I just right clicked that folder, and guess what? It turns out I can rename it! When was that feature added? It seems the devs listened to you nyarnon and added a fix for you. They must've thought it was important to fix it that quick.

[kaitwospirit]

Nyarnon, I feel like I'm missing something important reading your posts. I'm probably just stupid, but tell me if I'm correct here about what you're arguing:

1) Ubuntu One uses spaces in its folder name and in its subfolder names.
2) Spaces in folder names have been traditionally avoided in Linux/Unix filesystems.
3) Because Ubuntu One uses spaces in its filenames, this is in and of itself a reason not to use the service in any way, to believe the developers are not familiar with Linux/Unix, and to develop a competing cloud service.

I feel like I'm obviously missing something here, but this is the way that your posts read to me, as someone new to this thread.

[chrisccoulson]

Hence, nonono no use no spaces.

It's the number one on a good coders list.

I can't tell if this comment is serious or not. I've never met any coders where this is number one on their list (not good coders anyway).

[nyarnon]

Nyarnon, I feel like I'm missing something important reading your posts. I'm probably just stupid, but tell me if I'm correct here about what you're arguing:

1) Ubuntu One uses spaces in its folder name and in its subfolder names.
2) Spaces in folder names have been traditionally avoided in Linux/Unix filesystems.
3) Because Ubuntu One uses spaces in its filenames, this is in and of itself a reason not to use the service in any way, to believe the developers are not familiar with Linux/Unix, and to develop a competing cloud service.

I feel like I'm obviously missing something here, but this is the way that your posts read to me, as someone new to this thread.

Well up to three your pretty right, 3 is more a personal approach for people to take I would say. Anyway the poll till now shows a bit of that personal approach.

I work a lot with the shell and this naming idea for U1 is right out a disaster for any shell script. That's the whole point I'm making. The naming convention was an intrusion on my homedir setup.

[nyarnon]

I can't tell if this comment is serious or not. I've never met any coders where this is number one on their list (not good coders anyway).

I'm not going there Chris, you know perfectly well what I'm talking about.

[fela]

I voted omg no!, because I don't agree with them. I hate spaces in filenames actually, I never make folders with spaces in them as it just doesn't 'look right', maybe I've spent too much time in the command line! :lolflag:

But there is an easy way of using those spacey filenames in bash: just run cd Ubuntu\ One instead of cd Ubuntu One

But yeah, they're a bad idea as it just adds more complexity. Also, imagine if you had a folder called 'Ubuntu' and/or 'One', and you wanted to delete the folder 'Ubuntu One' but forgot the backslash - you'd end up deleting anything called Ubuntu or One in the current directory. So yeah, spaces in filenames aren't good.

[jpeddicord]

Moved to the Ubuntu One forum.

[nyarnon]

Moved to the Ubuntu One forum.

First temporary closed, now moved. Not even a PM. Someone feeling uncomfortable with the subject? For me its closed now, next time a issue like that comes up I will carefully consider not connecting it to a certain piece of software.

[jpeddicord]

First temporary closed, now moved. Not even a PM. Someone feeling uncomfortable with the subject? For me its closed now, next time a issue like that comes up I will carefully consider not connecting it to a certain piece of software.

Umm... Sorry? I moved it because this is where Ubuntu One topics are supposed to be. No coverups, it's just sorting. I even left a thread redirect in the original forum.

[ronacc]

First temporary closed, now moved. Not even a PM. Someone feeling uncomfortable with the subject? For me its closed now, next time a issue like that comes up I will carefully consider not connecting it to a certain piece of software.

@ nyarnon look at it this way , they just dumped the can of worms into the general community instead of keeping it bottled up in the dev forum where it only had a cloistered audience .:lolflag:

[mpt]

@mpt

You didn't get really much of what I was talking about and are making a lot of wrong presumptions.

Feel free to clarify, then. You seem to be having a fair bit of trouble getting other forum members [1 (http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=7784499&postcount=2), 2 (http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=7787424&postcount=65), 3 (http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=7787467&postcount=66), 4 (http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=7787544&postcount=68), 5 (http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=7787668&postcount=70)] to understand what you’re complaining about, so it’s not just me.

Most important of all the fact that you try to establish the fact that linux would *not* be a console based OS, which you try to prove by the ridiculous argument that Ubuntu would be used graphical only.

That is incorrect. What I said was, “Ubuntu, like every other mass-market OS, is graphical by default”. “By default” does not mean “only”. Anyway, the salient point is that Linux is not an OS; it is a kernel used by a variety of OSes. The most prominent of these include Ubuntu, Android, TiVo OS, and Palm webOS, all of which are graphical. And if you think it was misleading to use Ubuntu as an example, you’re probably on the wrong forum.

Ubuntu does have a server edition and a very strong one I might add, my own VPS is running Ubuntu Hardy and I can assure you there is nothing graphical on it.

As I said, “If you want a console-based OS, I suggest Ubuntu Server.” I’m glad you’re already finding it satisfactory.

Bottom line, I think that your line of thinking doesn't differ much of that of the developer that cooked up the space in that dir name. Then again he probably was developing for windows :-)

Again, feel free to address my actual questions. Unless you do, I won’t have any sympathy for your position. I have some experience in Web development, where any programmer who makes the security of their code dependent on assumptions about user input is highly misguided. So from my point of view, any shell programmer who makes the reliability of their script dependent on assumptions about what characters are used in filenames is similarly misguided.

[chrisccoulson]

I'm not going there Chris, you know perfectly well what I'm talking about.

I don't know, else I wouldn't have asked you.

[RainCT]

Guys, this is the XXI century. Enforcing random limitations is stupid, using spaces isn't.

Books, newsletters, websites, etc. have spaces, so why wouldn't directory names have them too? If the reason is that scripts don't work with them, then those are awful scripts and I wouldn't ever want to see them myself.