Is you really so christian?

[I got in trouble and instead of facing it demanded to have my account terminated]

Hello, I am living in Lithuania. I am a catholic.
Here exist some questions about e-sword. This program requires some dll's from Microsoft and these dll's requires licence. In other words, if I want to play with Ubuntu CE I must purchase Microsoft Windows. 1. So, I must be clearly informed about such situation. As a christian I follow the Ten Commandments and expect it from others Christians. As a christian I want to protect my brothers and sisters of faith from sins, at least with my activities and expect such protection from others Christians. So, if I see, that some christian propose me to do something, I believe him/her, that such activity is right. If I have not any warning, I believe that it is legal (use e-sword), because it is free operating system. But it is not!
2. Do you think it is really a feature of the free operating system, when I must purchase a licence? I should never boast of it. If you want to be clear just rewrite these dll's under free license and it will be true.
It is good, that your distribution has such the capability, but the situation must be clean. Just be right, just be the Christians.

With love, Eugenijus-Jonas.

[lisati]

A lot of it is about personal choice. An important part of the Ubuntu philosophy is being able to make, say, an alternative to Windows available free of charge. This "free of charge" idea doesn't necessarily equate to "free of cost" - many of us "pay" for Ubuntu by volunteering our time here at the forums.

As for using e-sword, you might have noticed that you are encouraged to share it with others.......


edit: Yes, e-sword was created with "Windows" in mind. For most Windows stuff there's usually an Ubuntu-friendly equivalent available where you don't have to worry too much (if at all) about purchasing licenses.

[Elfy]

Please make sure that this thread does not stray from the path and concentrates on the software please.

Religion/Politics threads:
Conversations about religion are disallowed at all times, as are all political discussions that are not directly related to free and open source software concerns.

[JohnnySage50307]

This is for the admin who wrote in this thread:

I understand the forum policy and agree with it fully, though I am very seldomly offended by religion and politics. However, I must ask why is there such a project dedicated "to bring[ing] Open Source software to the christian community"? I'm just curious because it seems that the purpose of this forum contradicts the policy.

Again, I'm not trying to start a fuss. I'm merely curious about the role and policies.

[Elfy]

The forum is here to deal with the software - but the forum's CoC states that conversations about religion are disallowed at all times. As long as the thread deals with the software then it is causing no issue.

There are many different 'religious' buntu based OSs, for instance http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=3878061&postcount=1

[JohnnySage50307]

If I may ask, what is the motivation of making *religious denomonation* buntus?

And I do apologize for sort of hijacking this thread...

[Elfy]

No idea - keep the thread on topic now please.

[jonathonblake]

This program requires some dll's from Microsoft and these dll's requires licence. In other words, if I want to play with Ubuntu CE I must purchase Microsoft Windows.

It is perfectly possible to use Ubuntu Christian Edition, including Bible study, without installing e-Sword.

If you want to use _e-Sword_, then you need to have some specific, Microsoft licensed DLLs. This (e-Sword) is a Bible Study Program written for Microsoft Windows. (Specifically, Win 95 through Win7, including Win NT.) Anybody who runs, or attempts to run it on another platform is strictly on their own, as far as official support goes.

Ubuntu Christian Edition includes scripts for installing e-Sword, simply because of "popular demand".

2. Do you think it is really a feature of the free operating system, when I must purchase a licence?

In the English language, "Free" has two very different meanings:
* Gratis;
* Libre;

e-Sword is gratis --- well other than roughly 40 resources. It is not libre. The Microsoft DLLs that e-Sword uses are not libre.

Linux, (take your pick between the OS and the Kernel) is Libre. For some people, it is gratis, but only because they have figured out how to legally obtain it for gratis. To redistribute Linux, one has to accept the conditions that the license that Linux imposes.

If you want to be clear just rewrite these dll's under free license and it will be true.

Even if the DLLs were Libre, that wouldn't get around the fact that e-Sword is _not_ Libre.

If, as it appears, you want a Libre Bible Study Program, then BibleTime or one of the other _Sword Project_ front ends is what you are looking for. If they don't have the feature set/tools you want/need in a Bible Study program, then I'm pretty sure that the respective project lead will be happy to include your code contribution to the program, that provides that functionality.

If you want a Christian oriented OS that is FLOSS, use iXthus, which is another Ubuntu variant.

jonathon

[jonathonblake]

I'm just curious because it seems that the purpose of this forum contradicts the policy.

Some people thought it would be nice to have a Linux distro that reflects their computing needs and requirements.

IOW, no different from a distro that focuses upon the needs of scientific research, or the requirements of a blind person, or the needs of a musician, or the needs of a school student, or for a corporate computer programmer.

In that respect, this specific forum does not contradict Ubuntu policy. (I'll grant that discussion about specific software can approach religious fervour, but that usually takes place in the context of Venom Incarnate v Edit Meta Alt Control Shift, which is found on a different forum.)


jonathon

[I got in trouble and instead of facing it demanded to have my account terminated]

Please make sure that this thread does not stray from the path and concentrates on the software please.

Religion/Politics threads:
Conversations about religion are disallowed at all times, as are all political discussions that are not directly related to free and open source software concerns.

I wrote this post to Ubuntu Christian Edition forum, where passed directly from ubuntuce.com page. There is no exist another forum for Ubuntu CE.
Every distribution or another big work come with its philosophy/constitution, not only with work by itself. And I expect to discuss all aspects of this distribution in forum dedicated for it.
So, if Ubuntu Christian Edition forum don't meet the forum policy - just delete it, or write another policy, adopted for religious derivatives of Ubuntu.

Eugenijus-Jonas.

[I got in trouble and instead of facing it demanded to have my account terminated]

It is perfectly possible to use Ubuntu Christian Edition, including Bible study, without installing e-Sword.

If you want to use _e-Sword_, then you need to have some specific, Microsoft licensed DLLs. This (e-Sword) is a Bible Study Program written for Microsoft Windows. (Specifically, Win 95 through Win7, including Win NT.) Anybody who runs, or attempts to run it on another platform is strictly on their own, as far as official support goes.


Basic question is while don't you behave as christians? While do you make me to sin, just because I trust you?

Eugenijus-Jonas.

[benny bronx]

+5 for jonathan for taking the time and effort to compose a thoughtful reply to the OP's Ubuntu related questions.

[mhancoc7]

Well,
If we add a disclaimer to the installer with the Microsoft License info would that be enough to satisfy the situation?
Jereme

[david_kt]

DISCLAIMER: I am not a lawyer, so do not quote me on below arguments in the court.


But I will try my best to give information as accurate as possible.

Hello, I am living in Lithuania. I am a catholic.
Here exist some questions about e-sword. This program requires some dll from Microsoft and these dll's requires licence. In other words, if I want to play with Ubuntu CE I must purchase Microsoft Windows.

Thank you for your concern. But I don't think we need to have windows license to run e-Sword as we do not need to use all dll's that Microsoft has. We just need to use some of them, 4 to be exact. Why we must purchase windows license? Which dll force us to use windows license? As far as I know, below are the dlls that require windows license:

dcom98 MS DCOM (ole32, oleaut32); requires Win98 license!
dotnet11 MS .NET 1.1 (requires Windows license)
dotnet20 MS .NET 2.0 (requires Windows license)
wininet MS wininet.dll (requires Windows license)
wme9 MS Windows Media Encoder 9 (requires Windows license)
wmp9 MS Windows Media Player 9 (requires Windows license)
wmp10 MS Windows Media Player 10 (requires Windows license)

But as of today, we download none of them to run e-Sword.


It is good, that your distribution has such the capability, but the situation must be clean. Just be right, just be the Christians.

With love, Eugenijus-Jonas.

Sure, I also want to be clean. Below is my analysis:

1. First of all, ubuntu ce is not shipped with any Microsoft dll, nor e-Sword. It is even illegal to host e-Sword in the internet, hence, we don't even host any of e-Sword program, nor its components. So, I am sure ubuntu ce is clean.

2. Not All Microsoft dlls require license, many of those dlls are "redistributable", meaning you could shipped it with your software. e-Sword itself comes with those "redistributable" dll for example the riched20 and mfc42u

3. There are many dlls you could obtain from Microsoft freely and legally, for example all those dll included in the Microsoft viewer.

4. As far as e-Sword installer concern, it is actually intended to help you with technical problem, not law. Many people purchased computer with windows license, but want to install ubuntu/linux for some reason and do not want to keep rebooting just to open e-Sword. So, for those people, license is not really a problem I guess.

5. As far as latest e-Sword concern, we only need:
a. mfc42.dll
b. msls31.dll
c. mfc42u.dll
d. riched20.dll

So, now come to my analysis about the legal aspect of these 4 dlls, but again, please don't quote me in court room as I am not a lawyer:

1. We use riched20.dll which is available in the e-Sword itself, as such, we do not even download it.
2. Using the installer, you will download those dll legally i.e microsoft provide free download for those dll.
3. mfc42u is shipped with e-Sword as well, but somehow it did not work in wine. From below mail, we understand that we could legaly repair it:
http://www.winehq.org/pipermail/wine-bugs/2003-January/003807.html

The Wine project cannot redistribute MFC42.dll. However, application developpers
who use that library (and thus have a Microsoft Visual Studio license) are
allowed by that license to redistribute it _with_ their application, and should
do so if they want it to work on all Windows platforms (e.g. Win95).
Anyway, if an application developper forgot to ship this library with his
application, a simple 'google mfc42.dll' should allow you to repair his mistake.


4. msls31.dll is extracted from InstMsiA.exe. While installing it, it would prompt you with below license:

http://www.microsoft.com/DownLoads/details.aspx?FamilyID=cebbacd8-c094-4255-b702-de3bb768148f&displaylang=en

You may install and use the SOFTWARE PRODUCT on a single computer solely for the purpose of developing applications for use with Microsoft(R) Windows(R) or Windows NT(R) ("Application"). You may not use the SOFTWARE PRODUCT to create files which are not compatible with the Microsoft Windows Installer file format.

Again, it never mention about windows license at all. The only restriction I could find is:

You may not use the SOFTWARE PRODUCT to create files which are not compatible with the Microsoft Windows Installer file format.

I think it refer to developer, which create files/software for competitors. But e-Sword user DO NOT CREATE FILE with InstMsiA.exe or msls31.dll. But even if it creates temporary file ( I doubt it, and it also out of context of developing software actually), it would still compatible with Microsoft Windows Installer file format.

I hope my explanation above clear your conscience. And please let me know if there are some mistakes in my explanation above. And again:

Do not quote me on court room, I just want to help people to run e-Sword on linux easily.

DK

[trulan]

Edit: David answered all my questions in the above post. I'm too slow I guess.

Thanks again to the developers for all the work you put into this. I appreciate it very much.

[david_kt]

Basic question is while don't you behave as christians? While do you make me to sin, just because I trust you?

Eugenijus-Jonas.

I guess it is not religious comment anyway, you are referring to stealing software or violate term of condition of software when you refer to "sin", right?

It would be good if you could tell us plainly "which sin" you are referring to? Which software we are stealing? What term of condition of which software and which part of term of condition we violate?

Hopefully we could learn more from you in this aspect of software development/usage.

DK

[lisati]

Further to my previous post:

If the issue of licenses is going to be problematical (more likely for Microsoft stuff you might need to install than for e-sword itself) there are alternatives. I currently have the GnomeSword2 software installed on my Ubuntu partition. It doesn't have the same range of "bells and whistles" as e-sword, but seems to do the job for occasional use.

(I have used e-sword on Windows since about version 4.<something> and love it!)

[david_kt]

Further to my previous post:

If the issue of licenses is going to be problematical (more likely for Microsoft stuff you might need to install than for e-sword itself) there are alternatives. I currently have the GnomeSword2 software installed on my Ubuntu partition. It doesn't have the same range of "bells and whistles" as e-sword, but seems to do the job for occasional use.

(I have used e-sword on Windows since about version 4.<something> and love it!)

I don't think there is licenses issue in the e-Sword on linux and those dlls. Anyway, I have included xiphos which is much better than GnomeSword2. Xiphos should be able to compete with e-Sword actually, that is why it is included by default.

DK

[lisati]

I don't think there is licenses issue in the e-Sword on linux and those dlls. Anyway, I have included xiphos which is much better than GnomeSword2. Xiphos should be able to compete with e-Sword actually, that is why it is included by default.

DK

Thanks, that's useful information to know. Although I've downloaded the ISO for CE I haven't actually looked at it yet.

[jonathonblake]

Xiphos should be able to compete with e-Sword

The biggest difference between the two, that The Crosswire Bible Society can't currently rectify, are the modern works, especially recently published translations of the Bible.

OTOH, if recent works are your prime requirement for Bible Study Software, then Logos Scholar is your best (¿only?) option.

jonathon

[david_kt]

The biggest difference between the two, that The Crosswire Bible Society can't currently rectify, are the modern works, especially recently published translations of the Bible.

OTOH, if recent works are your prime requirement for Bible Study Software, then Logos Scholar is your best (¿only?) option.

jonathon

If you are referring to:

http://www.logos.com/scholars

then, $629.95 is too expensive for casual user like me.

DK

[jonathonblake]

then, $629.95 is too expensive for casual user like me.

a) http://www.christianbook.com/scholars-library-rom-logos-bible-software/pd/100146?item_code=WW&netp_id=532223&event=HPT&view=covers has it for US$472.46;

b) Libronix offers a couple of alternatives, so that one can legitimately acquire it for substantially less than either Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price, or the Christian Book Distributors price;



jonathon

[david_kt]

I wrote this post to Ubuntu Christian Edition forum, where passed directly from ubuntuce.com page. There is no exist another forum for Ubuntu CE.
Every distribution or another big work come with its philosophy/constitution, not only with work by itself. And I expect to discuss all aspects of this distribution in forum dedicated for it.
So, if Ubuntu Christian Edition forum don't meet the forum policy - just delete it, or write another policy, adopted for religious derivatives of Ubuntu.

Eugenijus-Jonas.

Yes this is the right forum. But I think you misunderstand what the forum administrator meant.

In this forum, instead of using "sin", please state the legal offense that you are referring to. Instead of using 10 commandment as a reference, please quote which software license term, which copyright law and may be which patent law that is relevant to the subject at hand.

I think that is what the forum administrator wanted to say.

By the way, about software patent, may be you are insterested in reading below document:

http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/dcom/bpai/its/fd022257.pdf

which basically states that patent would cover 2 points:

1. Machine innovation
2. Process Innovation (converting some material into something else).

Software is definitely not a machine, so it fail the first test. And for the second test, software NORMALLY DO NOT convert material into something else, so it is also fail the second test.

So, according to that document, there are many software could not be patented.

If all of Microsoft software are really pass one of the above 2 tests, it is dooms day for free software.

Please do not confuse between copyright and patent though.

So, let's discuss legal issue here, not The 10 Commandments. I am very interested to know your opinion about this matter.

DK

[lisati]

Thank you DK for your comments.

Personally, I don't mind the occasional foray into the religious and philosophical side of things, but we need to remember that the primary focus of www.ubuntuforums.org is technical stuff, rather than political or doctrinal stuff, and covers more than just Ubuntu CE.

[I got in trouble and instead of facing it demanded to have my account terminated]

5. As far as latest e-Sword concern, we only need:
a. mfc42.dll
b. msls31.dll
c. mfc42u.dll
d. riched20.dll


1. We use riched20.dll which is available in the e-Sword itself, as such, we do not even download it.
2. Using the installer, you will download those dll legally i.e microsoft provide free download for those dll.
3. mfc42u is shipped with e-Sword as well, but somehow it did not work in wine. From below mail, we understand that we could legaly repair it:
http://www.winehq.org/pipermail/wine-bugs/2003-January/003807.html

The Wine project cannot redistribute MFC42.dll. However, application developpers
who use that library (and thus have a Microsoft Visual Studio license) are
allowed by that license to redistribute it _with_ their application, and should
do so if they want it to work on all Windows platforms (e.g. Win95).
Anyway, if an application developper forgot to ship this library with his
application, a simple 'google mfc42.dll' should allow you to repair his mistake.


4. msls31.dll is extracted from InstMsiA.exe. While installing it, it would prompt you with below license:

http://www.microsoft.com/DownLoads/details.aspx?FamilyID=cebbacd8-c094-4255-b702-de3bb768148f&displaylang=en

You may install and use the SOFTWARE PRODUCT on a single computer solely for the purpose of developing applications for use with Microsoft(R) Windows(R) or Windows NT(R) ("Application"). You may not use the SOFTWARE PRODUCT to create files which are not compatible with the Microsoft Windows Installer file format.


I have some doubt about legality of using mfc42.dll and msls31.dll . May be it's possible to request e-sword developers to provide these dll's for Ubuntu CE community, or even to ask Microsoft to do so?
Proper information about licencing must be added.

Edit. Moderator cut some my thought, I must repost:
About the sin (from 10 commandments): 7. You shall not steal. It is important for me and I hope it's important for others, especially christians, too.

Eugenijus-Jonas.

[david_kt]

I have some doubt about legality of using mfc42.dll and msls31.dll . May be it's possible to request e-sword developers to provide these dll's for Ubuntu CE community, or even to ask Microsoft to do so?
Proper information about licencing must be added.

<snip>

Eugenijus-Jonas.

Well, you have made a good progress. Your initial post said that:

"if I want to play with Ubuntu CE I must purchase Microsoft Windows".

Now you only have some doubt about legality of using mfc42 and msls31. Better still, you do not mention what license we should purchased to use mfc42 and msls31.

May be below comment would make more improvement:

Legal issue would depend on where you live. You should not try to enforce Lithuania law in Vietnam for example, or Vietnam law in Lithuania. If in doubt, please check with your own government, not Rick Meyers or Microsoft. I doubt Rick Meyers or Microsoft would understand fully your country laws.

Microsoft even faces legal charges due to does not observe local laws:

http://www.eweekeurope.co.uk/news/red-hat-sues-switzerland-over-microsoft-monopoly-965
http://www.networkworld.com/news/2009/011709-europe-charges-microsoft-with-abuse.html

Is that a "sin"? Nope, I have never heard of such charges against Microsoft in USA, right?

So, it would depend on local law, not what Microsoft or Rick Meyer have to say.

DK

[jonathonblake]

I have some doubt about legality of using mfc42.dll and msls31.dll.

Would a disclaimer about potential licensing issues of these two items satisfy your requirements?

May be it's possible to request e-sword developers to provide these dll's for Ubuntu CE community,

As I wrote earlier, users of e-Sword on platforms other than Windows are _strictly_ on their own. There is no way that Rick is going to include those two files, because they are found in _every_ version of Windows.

Proper information about licensing must be added.

Including licensing information about things that are not part of the distributed package seems, "strange".

jonathon

[Elfy]

Thread closed.