What could linux do to improve market share? [Archive]

Exciterusa

June 20th, 2009, 09:51 AM

First is to battle the monopoly tactics employed by microsoft: fight them so they do not preinstall the software, so they don't bribe or threaten hardware manufacturers, etc. The key to the success is that they have kidnapped desktop computers to then ask for ransom to all individuals and other corporations. This was not based at all on the strength of their product, all the opposite instead.

To me, the first and most important for GNU/Linux advocacy would be to become a PC manufacturer yourself: start custom building your own systems and do it for the people you know. That way they will immediately understand the actual price of Windows and will be more receptive to hearing about alternatives.

I think that's identifying a problem, but not coming up with solutions.
As far as becoming a pc manufacturer yourself and custome building your own systems. There have been several attempts at this. I even bought one (because at the time it was a cheap pc). I think they were called Linux Pc builders, it was a special at Sam's club. It came with some crap linders or somesuch, can't remember the distro now. I took that off and put fedora on it. I don't think they lasted. Therefore, I don't find that to be a viable solution to helping improve linux for the mainstream user.

I too dream of a day when Microsoft is found in violation of the GNU/GPL since their entire business model is based on licensing, and forced to release all it's source code.

Swarms

June 20th, 2009, 09:57 AM

First is to battle the monopoly tactics employed by microsoft: fight them so they do not preinstall the software, so they don't bribe or threaten hardware manufacturers, etc. The key to the success is that they have kidnapped desktop computers to then ask for ransom to all individuals and other corporations. This was not based at all on the strength of their product, all the opposite instead.

To me, the first and most important for GNU/Linux advocacy would be to become a PC manufacturer yourself: start custom building your own systems and do it for the people you know. That way they will immediately understand the actual price of Windows and will be more receptive to hearing about alternatives.

Microsoft is not kidnapping anyone silly... ):P

---

The most important thing is to keep developing Ubuntu, only by improving the operating system, it will be able to get a larger marketshare. It could also be marketing, expanding the ways of acquiring the operating system (like more deals with OEM installs), or starting to produce own computers (definitely the hardest way, so easy to flop)
It is all a competition.

Dimitriid

June 20th, 2009, 09:59 AM

I think that's identifying a problem, but not coming up with solutions.
As far as becoming a pc manufacturer yourself and custome building your own systems. There have been several attempts at this. I even bought one (because at the time it was a cheap pc). I think they were called Linux Pc builders, it was a special at Sam's club. It came with some crap linders or somesuch, can't remember the distro now. I took that off and put fedora on it. I don't think they lasted. Therefore, I don't find that to be a viable solution to helping improve linux for the mainstream user.

I too dream of a day when Microsoft is found in violation of the GNU/GPL since their entire business model is based on licensing, and forced to release all it's source code.

Well that is one solution, if you really want to fight the good fight you should be a political activist demanding integral change to the computer like the ones happening on Europe.

Dimitriid

June 20th, 2009, 10:04 AM

Microsoft is not kidnapping anyone silly... ):P

---

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_litigation

lhowaf

June 20th, 2009, 10:31 AM

Political/legal solutions aside (especially in the US, where the Justice Department punted), the biggest thing I think the Linux community should do is to develop a platform that game developers can use. DirectX gives MS a huge advantage because it frees developers from having to contend with disparate hardware issues.

starcraft.man

June 20th, 2009, 10:32 AM

Exciterusa

June 20th, 2009, 10:39 AM

IMO, it's simple Linux needs to rely on it's community nature and word of mouth advertising (i.e. tell friends). That, and relying on small niche companies like system76 to get preinstalled computers out. Competing on a huge scale like Dell was always doomed to fail because Microsoft has too much money and power, and whether people like it or not, they use it.

How about making an easy to use webpage like the links in your tag with swf videos for easy common tasks. Average joe can feel like he's trying to read the dictionary when presented with linux documentation.

Swarms

June 20th, 2009, 10:45 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_litigation

I must agree that Windows has a shady way of doing business, but it was just the kidnapped word I found a bit funny.

But let me get this straight, you would rather focus on bringing Windows down, to lower the competition down to Ubuntu's level.
Instead of developing on Ubuntu making it greater than Windows?

Political/legal solutions aside (especially in the US, where the Justice Department punted), the biggest thing I think the Linux community should do is to develop a platform that game developers can use. DirectX gives MS a huge advantage because it frees developers from having to contend with disparate hardware issues.

Yes this is very important, I don't know anything about this, but couldn't OpenCL be the solution?

starcraft.man

June 20th, 2009, 10:59 AM

How about making an easy to use webpage like the links in your tag with swf videos for easy common tasks. Average joe can feel like he's trying to read the dictionary when presented with linux documentation.

I've thought about how best to teach people Linux for a long while and the simple answer is there is no one-size-fits-all solution. Some poeple like text, others pictures, some audio or video. Some like step by step, some like just enough to get by, some like to figure it out on own. Some want huge manuals some want simple tiny handbooks. Some like hacking, others are afraid to change past defaults.

There simply isn't a perfect solution to make it easier to enter Linux. That's why these forums are so good, it is an entry point that allows you to get to any of the above usually. That's why I said before community is essential to the spread of Linux beyond it's current market share.

joyneo04

June 20th, 2009, 11:01 AM

Target the people who are just started the use of computer in their life.We have to educate people about open source....Its upto the people of Ubuntu community to encourage others to use it just like i am doing.....

TeoBigusGeekus

June 20th, 2009, 11:02 AM

Please make Autocad Civil 3d 2009 work on Linux! Please make Autocad Civil 3d 2009 work on Linux! Please make Autocad Civil 3d 2009 work on Linux!Please make Autocad Civil 3d 2009 work on Linux! Please make Autocad Civil 3d 2009 work on Linux!

Thousands of civil engineers around the world will then be ready to give you their bodies and souls...:lolflag:

afeasfaerw23231233

June 20th, 2009, 12:25 PM

My uncle, who is an average Joe, recently got a netbook with gOS preinstall. You guess what he asked me to do. He asked me to install XP, Office, PhotoImpact for him immediately before starting anything! I told him to try it first but he refused by just crying, 'No, No, I don't know linux!'

aysiu

June 20th, 2009, 01:24 PM

zero777zero

June 20th, 2009, 02:33 PM

stage 1
-monetise ubuntu (support for servers), use profits to increase quality, look and usability. standardise on a single defualt package format that -makes it easier for devs to get a program working on all distros without multiple versions
-better gui's, no command line instructions for basic tasks
-make gnome not ugly
-more apps on the cloud (for cross-platform)
-give corporations reasons to invest in desktop linux (ubuntu/amazon hookup)
-better, more functional software preinstalled
-better looking GUIs on preinstalled software
-better default gnome theme.

stage 2
-give incentives to gaming companies to port games to ubuntu
-give incentives for companies to port business software to ubuntu
-make exclusive deals for companies to release niche products exclusively for linux
-raise awareness of ubuntu via ad campaigns, "a faster, free upgrade to your older operating system preloaded with lots of good, free apps"
-talk to computer shops about offering ubuntu as an faster, fully-app-loaded alternative to windows, which may not be compatible with some of their software
-devs stop dividing their efforts among programs that are very similar, stop forking for stupid reasons
-do whatever necessary to dominate the server/embedded market. offer free migration, more ads, simpler installs. cut microsoft's secondary money sources off
-shape OpenOffice into a MS_Office killer then run ads, lobby microsoft's enemies to support OpenOffice with $$$, offer OpenOffice as a preinstall
on new systems
-ubuntu should offer free presentations to businesses, explaining "free" with no catch, offer support
-linux foundation should hire lobbyists to promote "free" open source software to help cut government funding

whenever i hear linux come up on non-computer related forums, the biggest excuse i hear for users not switching is apps. cross-platform apps are the key, they dont want apps that are similar, they want the same app, the same game etc. this is why a group, such as the linux foundation needs to offer to pay for apps to be ported, if it is not too expensive. sometimes a single niche app will hold someone back from switching, regardless whether or not it works in Wine.

it also goes without saying that less anti-closed-source zealotry would go a long way with companies that are trying to monetize apps for linux.

Exciterusa

June 21st, 2009, 05:53 AM

Balloon tips are going to make people switch from Windows to Linux?

Where did that idea come from?

I don't see balloon tips in OS X, and I know plenty of people who have switched from Windows to Mac. Not once have I heard them say "I really do miss the balloon tips from Windows... I want my Clippy back!"

That comes from working on computers and seeing that most people don't know squat about computers. So yes, balloon tips may help people switch.

I was really hoping that this thread might come up with constructive and specific ideas to help linux gain market share. Although I didn't have much hope that it wouldn't denigrate into criticism and arguing.

I notice you didn't post a helpful idea. You don't even set an example of people you know switching from windows to linux. You miss the point of this thread.

How long has linux been out? Going on 20 years and it's still under 1% market share. It's a free OS vs exorbitantly over priced competition and it's still at less that 1%.

Do you have an idea to help spread linux to the average joe? Or do you think linux should stay at less that 1% market share, and average joe should stick with windows or buy a mac?

Exciterusa

June 21st, 2009, 06:21 AM

whenever i hear linux come up on non-computer related forums, the biggest excuse i hear for users not switching is apps. cross-platform apps are the key, they dont want apps that are similar, they want the same app, the same game etc. this is why a group, such as the linux foundation needs to offer to pay for apps to be ported, if it is not too expensive. sometimes a single niche app will hold someone back from switching, regardless whether or not it works in Wine.

I agree with you. For a specific start, I think if Intuit could be convinced to make native linux versions of it's products, there could be a lot of converts to linux. I think a lot of businesses would switch, especially small businesses.
http://community.intuit.com/post/detail/cutL8EewKr3BcRabTJhmjm is not good enough.
Something else that could work well is something like http://ubuntustudio.org/ but a flavor geared for small businesses.

it also goes without saying that less anti-closed-source zealotry would go a long way with companies that are trying to monetize apps for linux.

I agree with you there as well. I don't have a problem with for pay apps. It's when they're so proud of their software that they want far too much for it. In the linux environment with so many open-source equivalents competing, it might bring their prices down to a more reasonable figure. But for most of the open-source software it's not even a consideration if they're not using linux.

Ascenti0n

June 21st, 2009, 06:28 AM

One of the biggest things that Linux lacks is commercial support and Linux ports of commercial software. Unfortunately a lot work would need to be done to improve standards and compatibility between major Linux base distros.
Funding Foss projects - Despite what some of the 'Free' (cost) extremists will tell you, The facts are, large software projects with commercial backing, can get more accomplished and to a high standard. Projects like, Blender, Gimp, Ardour, Inkscape etc and don't forget the Distro packagers too, they all need a lot more financial support.

Viva

June 21st, 2009, 06:45 AM

GNU/Linux are created based on opensource principles, so there will be some anti-closed-source sentiments, but calling it zealotry is idiotic. They are not here to generate a major market share quickly. They want to create an OS based on their beliefs. FWIW, a lot of commercial software run flawlessly on linux. Its just that some companies aren't bothered to port their software to linux or think there is not enough potential in linux market yet or scared of microsoft's reaction. Some hardware manufacturers are only just releasing drivers for linux, years after Microsoft were convicted of intimidating them using unfair tactics. It takes a lot of time to entirely heal the "windows-only" disease microsoft help spread in the 90s.

Lateforgym

June 21st, 2009, 06:45 AM

Linux is in a position to give people EXACTLY what they want and that is how Apple has grown. Apple users fight like hell about their love for it and the best I can tell is that Apple gave them what they wanted. Consider that Apple user were willing to pay three times as much for their MAC because of it.

There are two problems. 1.) Linux doenst create jobs and the US government doesnt stand to make taxes from it. Thus any government is shooting itself in the foot by endorsing a free product. 2.) Too many cheap Linux users sell it as "You can keep your old computer for years". I have seen too many driver issues with this mentality for the lazy mainstream public to want to move closer to it. Also the Ubuntu website is terrible. John Q Idiot Public needs a Main website with 3 clicks "Here is how to burn a Live CD(It wont change anything on your computer!)" and another "Here is how to get Microsoft and Ubuntu on the same computer" and "If something aint workin you need drivers. Get your drivers here." Short of that, the mainstream isnt smart enough.

I think the best way to get Linux out there is to shut up when Microsoft screws people over. Vista is currently Linux best friend with that crap they pulled. I saw huge jumps in Linux (and Apple use) and that is exactly why Microsoft raced like hell to get MS 7 on the market and why Gates retired. They know they screwed up hard, but since top level management pushed it, they didnt fire anyone over the screw up.

The mainstream is aware of the game M$ plays and it will not get the margins it used to get under the current pricing structure. So it is now trying to be creative with 6 version for MS 7. The average retail high school kid will confuse consumers on the differences and this will have more people asking about Linux.

Put Ubunu Live CD FREE with every computer sold, in every coffie house, and free in retail stores. After about 5 years, people will have gotten over that it wont change a thing in their computer and market share will increase (as long as M$ keeps a high price point and their product still sucks like Vista does).

munky99999

June 21st, 2009, 08:58 AM

Marlonsm

June 21st, 2009, 09:33 AM

What Linux needs, IMO, is advertising. People just don't know enough about it, some even think that we are still using CLI, while we actually have Compiz.

Some days ago I was talking to two people, and we started taking about computers, and then, OSs. One of them uses Vista, and the other, uses a Mac, the Vista user was complaining it was slow and bloated, so the Mac user said he didn't have problems like that, then I said the I also didn't have that problems in Linux.

When I said "Linux" both got interested, and started asking if it was actually usable, if I could open any kind of sites, open MS Office files, use certain kinds of tools... I said that I could easily do all those things...

Some days after it, the Mac user came to me and said that he tried Linux and that he was really impressed. I asked which distro did he get and he said "The first one that appeared on Google". So I gave him a Mint LiveCD, he installed it and said that he was even more impressed, as he could do anything on that (old) computer right after installing.

The Vista user is still interested, but I don't think he will like Linux that much because he plays some games.

Summarizing: People just don't know that Linux can do almost anything want, so they don't even try it.

chucky chuckaluck

June 21st, 2009, 09:40 AM

being less dramatic with the anti microsoft chatter and downplaying the dork image might help. unless there's a compelling reason to switch to linux, though, most 'normal' people will just stick with what they've got.

Exciterusa

June 21st, 2009, 09:54 AM

Summarizing: People just don't know that Linux can do almost anything want, so they don't even try it.

Ok, we keep rehashing the problem. But do you guys have any ideas on how to solve it? How to improve the market share? Not just detailing the reasons why linux doesn't have the market share?

Yashiro

June 21st, 2009, 09:59 AM

If it's just to improve share:
Improve the UI's look and performance.
Fix Flash compatibility and performance.
Fix driver short comings. Mainly the dreadful video performance.
Add a universal mouse control panel. (button assignments and so on)

To dramatically catch Windows:
Play all DirectX based games as well as Windows.

SerenityKill3r

June 21st, 2009, 10:05 AM

To me, the first and most important for GNU/Linux advocacy would be to become a PC manufacturer yourself: start custom building your own systems and do it for the people you know. That way they will immediately understand the actual price of Windows and will be more receptive to hearing about alternatives.

That is so hard to do (I am a system builder). Dell here in Ireland, offer a complete system for €400, with an E5200 and 9500GT, including Windows. There's no way in hell I could build a system for €400, including monitor, keyboard and mouse. The only market I target is the higher end, the last PC I build for a client was a Phenom II X4 955 and GTX 295, which I built considerably cheaper than Dell.

aysiu

June 21st, 2009, 12:28 PM

That comes from working on computers and seeing that most people don't know squat about computers. So yes, balloon tips may help people switch. These two don't go together.

Yes, I've also worked on computers and seen "most people don't know squat." But I have never seen a balloon tip help any of those people.

Are you honestly going to tell me you've seen "people [who] don't know squat about computers" have no issues with using Windows, because of balloon tips? They never ask you for help? The balloon tips solve all their problems or even most of them?

Balloon tips are completely useless.

Every day at my last three jobs, I constantly have Windows-using co-workers asking me for help with the simplest tasks in Windows (and I'm not even official tech support!). They've asked me how to do mail merges, how to change spacing in Word documents, how to change the Firefox homepage, how to extend the screen onto a second monitor, how to copy files.... the list goes on and on. If Windows were so simple to use and these balloon tips so helpful, then these people would never even think to ask someone else for help.

Not to mention the fact that the balloon tips don't even make sense. When you start typing a Word document with Dear so-and-so, Clippy pops up to say "You look like you're writing a letter. Do you want help with that?" Not once in my life have I ever seen someone say "Hey, that's so great the little clipboard thing asked if I wanted help writing a letter." Everyone I know, even the self-professed "computer illiterate" folks, hates Clippy and wants to know how to turn him off.

Balloon tips are about as silly as you walking up to your oven and having the oven talk to you and say "Please turn the dial to the temperature you would like to preheat the oven to," or your car talking to you when you nudge your steering wheel a little bit and saying "You look as if you're trying to make a left turn. Would you like help with that?"

And, as I said before, no one who switches from Windows to Mac complains about the lack of balloon tips.

I was really hoping that this thread might come up with constructive and specific ideas to help linux gain market share. Although I didn't have much hope that it wouldn't denigrate into criticism and arguing. Well, when your first suggestion is more balloon tips, you're going to get criticism. I don't see how that's "denigrat[ing]." So people aren't allowed to disagree with you?

I notice you didn't post a helpful idea. You don't even set an example of people you know switching from windows to linux. You miss the point of this thread. You don't need to result to personal attacks here. I didn't personally attack you for suggesting balloon tips. I just said balloon tips wouldn't be helpful in switching people over. Do you want to know what my suggestions are? Read the hundreds of other threads I've posted in over the past four years here. Yours is not the first thread asking what we can do to improve marketshare. Yours is the first to suggest merely adding balloon tips.

If you want a few suggestions, here are some:
What I’d love to see in Ubuntu 9.10 (Karmic Koala) (http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntucat/what-id-love-to-see-in-ubuntu-910-karmic-koala/)
The Linux community’s mixed messages (http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntucat/the-linux-communitys-mixed-messages/)
Ubuntu: The Open Source Apple Challenger? (http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntucat/ubuntu-the-open-source-apple-challenger/)
Making sense of an abundance of choice (http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntucat/making-sense-of-an-abundance-of-choice/)

That's just a glimpse.

I have labored hard for years on making documentation that is accessible to new Linux users. I have posted in numerous threads here discussing how to improve Ubuntu. I have posted and voted on Brainstorm ideas, filed bug reports, and helped new users in technical support threads.

But because I posted one negative comment in your thread asking for more balloon tips, I get attacked as not setting an example.

How long has linux been out? Going on 20 years and it's still under 1% market share. It's a free OS vs exorbitantly over priced competition and it's still at less that 1%. Linux hasn't been spending those almost-20 years trying to be a consumer OS targeted at desktops and laptops. It's only in the last few years it has even tried that.

Do you really believe that when Linus Torvalds spent a summer coding the Linux kernel in the early 90s that he was trying to create a Windows replacement?

Do you have an idea to help spread linux to the average joe? Yeah. I have plenty of ideas. They're in the links posted above. Read them.Or do you think linux should stay at less that 1% market share, and average joe should stick with windows or buy a mac? All I have said is that balloon tips in Ubuntu will not help.

Dimitriid

June 21st, 2009, 12:32 PM

I must agree that Windows has a shady way of doing business, but it was just the kidnapped word I found a bit funny.

But let me get this straight, you would rather focus on bringing Windows down, to lower the competition down to Ubuntu's level.
Instead of developing on Ubuntu making it greater than Windows?

Its already better than windows on every single regard. And a lot so.

Swagman

June 21st, 2009, 12:34 PM

Just tell people you can surf porn sites in safety !! (using Live CD's)

JordyD

June 21st, 2009, 12:38 PM

If it's just to improve share:
Improve the UI's look and performance.
We can do that.

Fix Flash compatibility and performance.
Flash is proprietary, we can't really do anything about that, unless you are talking about gnash and swfdec.

Fix driver short comings. Mainly the dreadful video performance.
We can do this, but not with Nvidia, because they're closed source. But those drivers have been fine for me.

Add a universal mouse control panel. (button assignments and so on)
I second this. We need better mouse configuration.

To dramatically catch Windows:
Play all DirectX based games as well as Windows.
The only way to do this is with WINE, since DirectX is closed-source. What we really need is for game developers to notice us and see us as a viable market.

tashirosgt

June 21st, 2009, 12:39 PM

In conversations like this, the focus tends to be on the personal desktop - peoples favorite hardware, applications, ease of personal use, etc. The market for personal software is highly dependent on the market for corporate software since people want compatibility between work and home machines. The market for corporate software includes the problems of administering servers, security policies, email, backups. You must be able to efficiently configure and manage a large number of machines without having to walk around and sit down at each one of them. So if you really want to analyze market share you must compare what MS server software has to offer vs what Linux has to offer.

I don't think the comparison of MS desktop software to Linux desktop software is the critical aspect of market share.

ugm6hr

June 21st, 2009, 12:42 PM

If you are looking for real-world solutions: they don't exist.

In a fantasy world, the key is to make Ubuntu / Linux desirable.

Market competition works if:
1. Your product offers better features etc (i.e. is desirable).
2. Your product offers the same features for less money (i.e. is cheaper).

Apple has found a significant niche market (generally amongst students and the teenagers etc) using the first strategy, and is able to charge higher margins than any other PC manufacturer, and does not need to discount its OS (unlike MS).

Linux / Ubuntu users argue that it definitely fulfils the 2nd criteria, and in some senses the 1st too. However, most PC users do not see this (for multiple reasons reiterated everywhere).

In order to achieve this, marketing and investment is required. However, given that no Linux company will actually be able to successfully charge higher margins on a "free" and readily distributable OS, who would actually make that investment?

Hence, in the real world, it is spread by community spirit. The internet allows the community to spread more readily (with forums like this), but it is not the same as placing daily ads on TV during peak watching time.

Apologies if you were looking for a solution, but as mentioned at the start, if there was a solution that was feasible, someone would already have done it. Shuttleworth is no idiot, and he is trying his hardest to achieve what you are asking. He has successfully lobbied the BBC to support Totem, which is a good start. There is a growing lobby group to apply pressure on European government agencies to use FOSS too; largely ineffective in the UK so far. If Shuttleworth could persuade some commercial companies (specifically software developers) to actively support Ubuntu too, he may achieve his goal...

Remember that Apple invited MS to produce Office for the Mac, and relinquished their own hold on the Mac office suite segment (with Clarisworks, I think) in order to ensure that business users felt at home with their Mac at a time when Office applications were what defined a PC. Unfortunately, I think persuading MS to do the same for Ubuntu will be a lot harder, unless Canonical agrees to drop OO.org in favour of an MS Office "trial" in Ubuntu. Perhaps if OpenOffice is given larger exposure, and becomes mainstream, Linux use will follow in its footsteps. If not, we will have to wait until a web browser truly defines a PC's use, at which point there will be no barriers to Linux adoption.

Hardware manufacturers will follow suit once the software draws users, as will games developers. Business use is the key.

captainelectron

June 21st, 2009, 12:46 PM

I have a tiny computer repair business and I have seen the first-ever linux-based consumer boxes come in for service lately. This change is the result of the net top super small (but super capable) pc hardware that is built around the Intel Atom processor. I see this as a huge opportunity.

You can get a barebones hardware platform for $150, and can build the entire pc (sans screen) for $350. This means that a M$ OS solution is 25-40% of the system cost. At that price point, customers will have quite an incentive to try an alternative.

For example, a small system with Linux installed might be $265, whereas the same system with M$ installed might be $375 -- a 40% higher price!

Small system builders can literally kick the pants off of the likes of Dell or HP with these systems, and the new hardware is well-designed IMO. Go to newegg.com and search for "MSI Wind" to see what I am talking about. Cheap hardware is a great opportunity to gain wider exposure for linux.... ...At least until M$ is forced to aggressively lower prices.

Swagman

June 21st, 2009, 12:48 PM

The answer must surely be to code a windows plugin that syphons off windows users credit cards and sends it to Microsoft !!

Job Sorted.

(Wish I could code)

froggyswamp

June 21st, 2009, 12:48 PM

What could linux do to improve market share?
Who is asking? A distribution provider?

Icehuck

June 21st, 2009, 12:50 PM

Improve market share?

Standardize everything. Ditch the GPL and make the system closed source. Sell the OS for about $90 and advertise, advertise, advertise!

aysiu

June 21st, 2009, 12:57 PM

If you are looking for real-world solutions: they don't exist. I only partially agree with you here. There are no immediate real-world solutions (just do X, Y, and Z; and suddenly we'll have a large marketshare within a few months). But there are definite steps you can take over the long term to improve the market share.

Though, as Apple has shown, even if you offer a beautiful system and have no qualms about proprietary v. free software, it can be difficult to take away Microsoft hold on the consumer / business market.

Apologies if you were looking for a solution, but as mentioned at the start, if there was a solution that was feasible, someone would already have done it. Shuttleworth is no idiot, and he is trying his hardest to achieve what you are asking. Again, only partially agree here. Shuttleworth is no idiot, and I believe he has a good head for business (that's why he's a multimillionaire and I'm not). Still, there is plenty that could be done that isn't being done. There should be minimal to no regressions in hardware support. If my wireless card works in release X, it should also work in release X+1. Bugs that severely hamper functionality should be fixed by release time or even after release time. A better-looking default theme could be implemented (Dust Sand and DarkRoom are 10 times better than Human--both are included on the CD, but Human is still the default).

It's important to recognize what's outside of Ubuntu's control, what's outside of the Linux and open source communities' control, and what we can control... and whatever we can control, we should fix to the best of our ability, whether that is improving documentation, funding efforts, encouraging standards, correcting misinformation... or fixing bugs. I like the new Hundred Small Cuts initiative, but that is only a start.

ugm6hr

June 21st, 2009, 02:05 PM

I agree that improving the product (e.g. Paper Cuts execrise) is an important component in this strategy, but that in itself does not necessarily provide impetus to increased use. History is littered with fallen technologies that were technologically better, but dropped in favour of the popular (e.g VHS vs Betamax etc). Of course, the open source community will ensure Linux does not disappear like some other competitors (remember OS2 Warp).

However, I do think the most important component to achieve this goal is compatibility with software required at work or school.

Taking myself as an example, let me illustrate. I use Ubuntu out of choice at home. However, I work in a (public) institution that uses Windows and MS Office. For presentations, I use OO Impress. However, in order to show my presentations, I have to either convert to PDF, save as a ppt file and hope it works, or take my laptop to work and hope the projector works with Ubuntu. The same applies when I collaborate with work colleagues on a poster (in Impress / PowerPoint). If I want to apply for a job, most applications come in Word format, which generally work with Writer, but not always. Calc actually does a good job of editing simple spreadsheets from Excel (for work rotas). Nevertheless, most people are not prepared to tolerate these minor inconveniences.

So, apart from email and browser applications (which I think Linux already has pretty sorted), I think the greatest "feature" holdup to Linux takeup at home is the lack of MS Office on Ubuntu. Or, viewing it from the other side, the lack of OpenOffice at work.

Given the former scenario seems very unlikely (and probably very unpopular with existing FOSS users), I think the biggest contribution from the corporate sponsors to the popularity of Linux is lobbying governments and public bodies (and corporations) to use open source.

As a thought... I wonder if anyone has audited how many French gendarmes chose Ubuntu at home rather than upgrading to Vista?

captainelectron

June 21st, 2009, 02:16 PM

Improve market share?

Standardize everything. Ditch the GPL and make the system closed source. Sell the OS for about $90 and advertise, advertise, advertise!

Sadly, this is brilliant.

monsterstack

June 21st, 2009, 03:25 PM

Get OEMs to sell Linux pre-installed on PCs, laptops and netbooks.
Get them to install mainstream distributions with proper package management.
Make sure all the drivers work properly before you sell them.
Advertise it as actually being Linux.
There is a cost-advantage for installing Linux rather than Windows on OEM PCs, so use it.
Don't just offer Linux as an alternative on some obscure page of your website; have Linux machines up and running on display in the actual stores, ready to go.

Linux is ready for the vast majority of most users. It has been ready for years. Get manufacturers to sell decent hardware with a distro that's actually usable, and market it properly, and the users will come.

Shibblet

June 21st, 2009, 05:21 PM

Sadly, this is brilliant.

Seems to be true. People will buy anything if they think it's new, trendy, and expensive...

Remember how many people actually wanted the new "Mac Book Wheel"? I love the Onion, but they really hit a home run with that one!

I don't see an invasion of market-share, based primarily on compatibility with the market-share of software out there. Mac has a hard enough time.

I think the market would be saturated with Linux, if every program on the market was 100% Linux compatible, and people didn't have to toy around with Wine.

golusweet

June 21st, 2009, 05:35 PM

Shibblet

June 21st, 2009, 05:52 PM

believe me guys, Linux needs advertising.

Many people just ain't aware of Linux.

Linux is already better now, me and my friends converted around hundred users now, and all are impressed. More people will know about it, more will try.:P

I don't know about that... there are some people who are "computer-savvy" and have given Ubuntu a try, then decided not to use it based mainly on the compatibility of Windows.

Prime example: My manager at work has an Averatec Laptop, threw Ubuntu on it, and from initial installation, he has problem with his Video drivers. Second problem is volume.

This guy used to build his on machines, overclock processors, and tweak every last bit of performance he could out of a computer. The funny part is he's not a gamer.

So he tolerated this and tried to make things work for about 2 weeks. Finally, he looks at me and says... "Why am I f**king with this? Windows does everything I need it to. My drivers work, my volume isn't low, my video doesn't flicker. This isn't worth my time."

We talked about performance, and he agree's Linux is better performing, more secure, and he likes the Compiz desktop effects. But when it comes down to it, he'd RATHER use Windows based on compatibility and driver support from the manufacturer.

And you know what? He's right.

I'm not saying Windows is a better OS. But, only those people who are willing to configure it properly, are going to reap the benefits.

Linux will only gain marketshare when manufacturers directly provide driver support, and software companies release Linux versions.

jonian_g

June 21st, 2009, 06:32 PM

believe me guys, Linux needs advertising.

Many people just ain't aware of Linux.

Linux is already better now, me and my friends converted around hundred users now, and all are impressed. More people will know about it, more will try.:P

Well, what you and your friends do is the best way to promote linux. I've converted some people too.
One of them has a caffeteria and four laptops for free internet access. He had winXP on them and a lot of troubles with viruses and asked me to help him. I proposed ubuntu and he agreed. All his laptops had no driver issues and everything worked out of the box. He is very happy with ubuntu and a lot of people that used those laptops showed interest on what linux is and asked him how they can get it.

golusweet

June 22nd, 2009, 03:33 AM

I don't know about that... there are some people who are "computer-savvy" and have given Ubuntu a try, then decided not to use it based mainly on the compatibility of Windows.

Prime example: My manager at work has an Averatec Laptop, threw Ubuntu on it, and from initial installation, he has problem with his Video drivers. Second problem is volume.

This guy used to build his on machines, overclock processors, and tweak every last bit of performance he could out of a computer. The funny part is he's not a gamer.

So he tolerated this and tried to make things work for about 2 weeks. Finally, he looks at me and says... "Why am I f**king with this? Windows does everything I need it to. My drivers work, my volume isn't low, my video doesn't flicker. This isn't worth my time."

We talked about performance, and he agree's Linux is better performing, more secure, and he likes the Compiz desktop effects. But when it comes down to it, he'd RATHER use Windows based on compatibility and driver support from the manufacturer.

And you know what? He's right.

I'm not saying Windows is a better OS. But, only those people who are willing to configure it properly, are going to reap the benefits.

Linux will only gain marketshare when manufacturers directly provide driver support, and software companies release Linux versions.

Driver support is improving. We will see more improvements in upcoming releases. If certain driver does not work, I recommend my friends to try different versions.

For e.g ubuntu 8.04 LTS works fine on older hardware.

golusweet

June 22nd, 2009, 03:39 AM

Well, what you and your friends do is the best way to promote linux. I've converted some people too.
One of them has a caffeteria and four laptops for free internet access. He had winXP on them and a lot of troubles with viruses and asked me to help him. I proposed ubuntu and he agreed. All his laptops had no driver issues and everything worked out of the box. He is very happy with ubuntu and a lot of people that used those laptops showed interest on what linux is and asked him how they can get it.

Yeah, We are doing it, trying to convert as much as possible.

It's not like, we are forcing them to Install. By showing the Linux features to them. They really like Linux more than Windows.

Majority of Computer users does not know about Linux. Even in some colleges and schools, They think Linux is all CLI,and not suitable for desktop yet.

Linux promotion is must. There are many people who are tired of Windows, and want something new like Linux. They just ain't aware.:P

stinger30au

June 22nd, 2009, 05:34 AM

.

My question is what could Linux do to improve it's use for the mainstream user? What could be done to help convince average joe that Linux is just as good an option as Windows?

simple *ADVERTISING*

its amazing how many people just *DONT KNOW* linux is available, let alone even heard of the word in their life before *EVER*

the best thing i can think of to reach a large audience and i do it every few months, i write a letter to the "letters to the editor" section in my local news paper

i rave on about how great ubuntu is and all the wonderful things it does and how great it is

the news paper reaches about 300,000 people

they print every letter i have sent

i suggest everyone do he same

free advertising to lots of people with a minimum of effort

sounds good to me

Exciterusa

June 22nd, 2009, 06:01 AM

Are you honestly going to tell me you've seen "people [who] don't know squat about computers" have no issues with using Windows, because of balloon tips? They never ask you for help? The balloon tips solve all their problems or even most of them?

Where did I imply that balloon tips solve most or all user problems with windows? I merely suggested that balloon tips may help users with no knowledge. Maybe balloon tips that could help a new user setup their internet connection. If they're on dsl and need to use pppoe, balloon tips could help point them in the right direction to get setup.
Personally I hate balloon tips. But I've also noticed a lot of 'features' I don't like with computers, people with less experience in fact do like. I still like to use the command prompt often with windows as a lot of things are easier and faster to do with cli then mouse clicking here and there.

I also have to admit your first message about 'clippy' went right over my head. Until this last message where you said:
When you start typing a Word document with Dear so-and-so, Clippy pops up to say "You look like you're writing a letter.

I don't use MS office and have never had the pleasure of having 'clippy' make me want to smash my fist thru the monitor.

Balloon tips are about as silly as you walking up to your oven and having the oven talk to you and say "Please turn the dial to the temperature you would like to preheat the oven to,"

Make that oven white and put the apple logo on the oven window and they will sell millions!

And, as I said before, no one who switches from Windows to Mac complains about the lack of balloon tips.

Especially if they're running windows apps on those macs.
I can't comment on what macs do and don't do. Everytime someone asks me to help them with their macs I generally get lost. I find their idea of making things simple actually makes them more difficult. But that would be my lack of experience with macs. If you know of things macs do to help computer illiterates, how about offering up those ideas?

You don't need to result to personal attacks here. I didn't personally attack you for suggesting balloon tips. I just said balloon tips wouldn't be helpful in switching people over.
Balloon tips are going to make people switch from Windows to Linux?

Where did that idea come from?
I don't see balloon tips in OS X, and I know plenty of people who have switched from Windows to Mac. Not once have I heard them say "I really do miss the balloon tips from Windows... I want my Clippy back!"
That sounds condescending to me.

Read the hundreds of other threads I've posted in over the past four years here. Yours is not the first thread asking what we can do to improve marketshare.

I haven't read your hundreds of other threads on here, but I'm sure you have made quite a valuable contribution. I posted this thread this way because of the other threads I have read. Most of the messages seems to become an argument of which os is better or, yes a few people can happily switch completely over to linux. I'd just like to see suggestions in this thread. I wasn't really looking for ideas that would get someone like you to switch to linux. But the average joe.

The computer shop I work in, recently another employee worked on a computer. But they weren't around and the customer called from a library because he couldn't connect to their wireless. I had the joy of diagnosing why and walking him thru this problem. At least 5 minutes of this conversation was explaining to him where the enter key was.
So I disagree with you. This guy could use both balloon tips and a talking oven.

Do you really believe that when Linus Torvalds spent a summer coding the Linux kernel in the early 90s that he was trying to create a Windows replacement?

No, nor do I believe Bill Gates ever thought windows would become so big when he made his comment that 640k of memory would be more than anyone would ever need.

Exciterusa

June 22nd, 2009, 06:09 AM

Apologies if you were looking for a solution, but as mentioned at the start, if there was a solution that was feasible, someone would already have done it.

I find that to be very close minded. If that were the case then advancements and new discoveries would never be made.

Exciterusa

June 22nd, 2009, 06:13 AM

believe me guys, Linux needs advertising.

Many people just ain't aware of Linux.

Linux is already better now, me and my friends converted around hundred users now, and all are impressed. More people will know about it, more will try.:P

Microsoft has never been known for putting out a quality product. They are known for being masters at marketing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTkA9L2J2gY

Arup

June 22nd, 2009, 06:25 AM

Ads cost money and since I don't see Linux in the business of earning money of fleecing its customers, I don't forsee that happening any time soon. Word of mouth is the key here, in my spare time I install Linux for senior citizens and even youngsters who love the fact that they don't have to deal with virus etc.

fatum

June 22nd, 2009, 06:27 AM

Sadly people do not like change. People want a computer that works no fuss. Linux is not there yet. The people that love linux are the developers and the tinkerers.

So want to gain market share?

Have only 1 or 2 distributions: I know people are not going to like this but it is necessary for big developers, they need to know that the file they need will be in a this place or that place. Adobe knows on Windows and Mac that the file is located in place X.

Make everything work: After installing Ubuntu for a couple friends and spending hours sometimes days to get everything to work and then handing the computer over to them they love it. Friends that tried installing it on their own reinstalled windows. People want things to work right away not having to deal with conf files

Create programs: One of the reasons that Apple has been selling more computers is integration of programs. Its great having choices when it comes to software but sometimes very difficult to get them to work together

K.I.S.S. #1: It takes time to get use to things. Create a simple tutorial at the first boot up for things that are different. Show a simple movie that shows where the applications are, how to install software, and the names of the programs. A person coming from Windows or OS X is not going to know that Gimp is photoshop, referencer is endnote, banshee is itunes, and that pidgin can handle all IM

K.I.S.S #2: The family of four with no computer literates is not going to know what to do after opening up the root file system. bin, sbin, etc, opt, sys, tmp mean nothing to them. This is where OS X got it right. Hide all of that from the normal user. Create folders that the normal person will know. When is the last time you physically clicked through these anyway? A vast majority probably uses the CLI to interact with these.

Change the game: Sorry Apple but WE need to Think Different. Coming from the OS X side where I haven't used Windows in almost a decade Linux feels very Window-ish to me. There are good things and bad things to Windows and also OS X. Why not take the best from both. I prefer the way OS X handles the menu system. All menus for programs are in the task bar (programs have more room on screen). I also prefer how they handle Applications with a folder and a click-able program icon instead of menu driven (there is no need to have programs split into categories; can create confusion).

Desktop Environments: Sorry, and I know I will get flack for this, but the top two (Gnome, KDE) feel the same to me. Task bar to work from, everything from a pop up menu. Yeah they look different and use different libraries and all that but the end user doesn't know that. Create a new DE that is nice to look at but has usability at its heart, which doesn't mean that you are unable to customize.

I like linux for its customization ability. But I also get really frustrated with it. I strongly believe that Linux is going to be the future of computers but somethings need to change with it before it gets to that point. It would be fantastic to have the entire world on one OS.

Arup

June 22nd, 2009, 06:31 AM

Exciterusa

June 22nd, 2009, 08:58 AM

Sadly people do not like change. People want a computer that works no fuss. Linux is not there yet. The people that love linux are the developers and the tinkerers.

Yes, most people only think of a computer as a tool or a toy. They expect it to be like their toaster. They just want it to work.

K.I.S.S. #1: It takes time to get use to things. Create a simple tutorial at the first boot up for things that are different. Show a simple movie that shows where the applications are, how to install software, and the names of the programs. A person coming from Windows or OS X is not going to know that Gimp is photoshop, referencer is endnote, banshee is itunes, and that pidgin can handle all IM

I like this. There is an option for classic desktop, how about a tutorial desktop option. So things could be guided for users. But be able to turn that off. Also an option to install certain programs. Like ubunutu studio does but have more options for different uses. Say maybe a student version that would install all the common applications a college student would want so they wouldn't have to go searching for the apps they need.

K.I.S.S #2: The family of four with no computer literates is not going to know what to do after opening up the root file system. bin, sbin, etc, opt, sys, tmp mean nothing to them. This is where OS X got it right. Hide all of that from the normal user. Create folders that the normal person will know. When is the last time you physically clicked through these anyway? A vast majority probably uses the CLI to interact with these.

I recently worked on one of those HP MINI netbooks that had the HP linux on it. Which is a scaled down version of ubuntu specially made for HP. For me, I didn't really like it. But for the average user it was done pretty well. I had to go figure out turning on a terminal as it's not available by default. It was basically a menu system with common apps for the user. Web browser, Pidgin, email. Basic stuff and hard to screw up. Too bad it didn't work with the cell modem.

Change the game: Sorry Apple but WE need to Think Different. Coming from the OS X side where I haven't used Windows in almost a decade Linux feels very Window-ish to me. There are good things and bad things to Windows and also OS X. Why not take the best from both. I prefer the way OS X handles the menu system. All menus for programs are in the task bar (programs have more room on screen). I also prefer how they handle Applications with a folder and a click-able program icon instead of menu driven (there is no need to have programs split into categories; can create confusion).

This is what I've been saying. I'd really like to see linux gain market share. In doing so, manufacturers would make more drivers available, software companies would make more native linux versions. Maybe even one day more game makers would make native linux versions.

ReddogOne

June 22nd, 2009, 09:44 AM

Advertise it as actually being Linux.

This is the only bit I would totally disagree with. I don't think it should be advertised as Linux at all. The bits that sit under the interface are irrelevant! Like my mum cares about something called Linux.

It should be advertised as having Ubuntu (or other distro) with the Linux bit in the small print. So many times one person goes use Linux, and the response is no because I didn't like XYZ distro. When its the ditro they didn't like NOT Linux.

fatum

June 22nd, 2009, 09:50 AM

OSX feels like a toy to me, have tried it couple of times, never like the tacky interface, current OSX is not stable, it has many security holes as exposed by various testers, in a recent pwn2own, OSX was the first to fall followed by Windows, a older Gutsy Gibbon was the only one to remain in order. I am using Linux for the myriads of choice available, if they cut it down to one or two it would be end of many Linux loyalists.

You have the opposite experience that I have had. I have had Ubuntu spontaneously reboot on my by just putting firefox to maximize and another time with changing the scale of a movie in VLC. Where is Ive been an OS X user since 2002 and a Mac user since 1997 I have had a Kernel Panic twice and have never had a spontaneous reboot from anything. Security of an OS has to do more with the user at the computer than the OS itself in my opinion.

OS X was the first of the three to go down in pwn2own but only after opening up web vulnerabilities that required the user to click on the links sent. Would have worked on any computer running Firefox.

Going down to only one or two distributions would serve to the better for the Linux community for the sole reason of the programmers working on the 50 or so distributions would only be working on one or two. All the applications would still be there to give plenty of choice.

fatum

June 22nd, 2009, 10:08 AM

Yes, most people only think of a computer as a tool or a toy. They expect it to be like their toaster. They just want it to work.

I love computers, no matter the use. I think they make things easier and there have been many advancements for the human race that have come directly from using a computer, it could have taken much longer without a computer if they happened at all. That being said I don't like having to putts around for hours to get my graphics card, sound, or wireless working. That is time that could be spent coming up with something better. Maybe not with computers but government, philanthropy, family, friends, career the possibilities are endless. That is just time as an end user that I don't feel I should have to spend in order to get a working computer.

ReddogOne

June 22nd, 2009, 11:56 AM

Fundamentally it needs to be made as error free and easy to use as possible. So we can keep as many people try it for whatever reason. Once lost not likely to give Linux a try again.

However I think that the main way would be to concentrate on niches that can gain Linux leads in specific areas. For example:

Really secure distro for children. So when someone searches for "Stop my kids seeing porn", kidsafebuntu is in the list as an option. Site white list, time restrictions etc already set up. Usage log sent to parent.
Make MythTV and media players etc really cool. People use it because they want a cool media solution then find out a desktop brilliant comes along with it (that's what happened to me).

Also commercialise the platform by making a very secure way for people to distribute their IP. Millions of open source servers deliver website for commercial purposes but suggest the same for a desktop computer and people will spit in your face!

Make an environment where commercial companies can distribute films, music, television, games without any real work and high security. "Hey mister media owner, did you know that if you used our open source software to distribute your content its as easy and as secure than anything windows or Mac so you're be silly not to use it as well!"

And without these commercial distributions of media, got to get iTunes working under wine. Biggest single reason why I fail to convert people. And NO! No open good open source alternative exists as far as most people are concerned! For most people iTunes is the best way to play music, sync there iPod and buy tunes.

monsterstack

June 22nd, 2009, 12:28 PM

Shibblet

June 23rd, 2009, 09:22 PM

Most of the problems people are complaining about, you know, the "works out of the box with no fuss" stuff, are actually easily solved. Have you ever tried installing Windows lately? And not with the image that came from your OEM, either. Vanilla install of Windows XP or Vista. It isn't a fun thing. And yes, once you're finished, you'll need to sit through a bunch of updates, and even then you'll have poorly-configured drivers to fix. 99% of the things people complain about in Linux can be solved by pre-installs. If an OEM makes and configures a computer to run Ubuntu without any problems, then you can be pretty sure that it will also run Mandriva, Fedora, Debian or whatever with minimal fuss. It doesn't mater how good Linux is; if it isn't installed on the PC when you buy it, many people won't bother. Why should they? They don't want any fuss.

Thats a good point. I never really thought about drivers and the like. But I do have an "over-the-counter" version of Vista Home Premium, and it does take a long time to install, then you do have to play driver games and the like.

Ubuntu is the same way. I can install the OS in about 10 minutes (beat that Windows!), but It does take a little bit longer to download the updates, and install the drivers.

The unfortunate part of all of this, is that manufacturers (as a general rule) don't have driver support for hardware. What I mean is, there are no Linux drivers included in the hardware package.

Vasator

June 29th, 2009, 04:31 PM

Software is worthless unless it works out of the box.
Software is worthless unless there is actual support.

To make Linux really shine what should be done is all of the forum posts, every single tidbit of information about troubleshooting Ubuntu or any other distribution is this:

Have all the information in one place.
and
Make the information easier to find.

I am a computer professional so I know mostly how to find the information I need and how to fix it. Most people are either not technical or downright scared they are going to "break" their computer.

If Linux or the Ubuntu community wants to become mainstream then you have to make things as easy as possible for the common person. Windows is Easy - Linux is a Hassle and it is. I just bought a new video card for my computer. spent some dough and guess what... no 3-d acceleration.. but I installed the card and guess what. a reboot or two in Windows and it works.

Now I know what people are going to say "Its not our fault, ati/nvidia/whoever didn't release drivers" Guess what folks the common person doesn't care. They dont. they want something that works without having to search for the answer and then typing in a bunch of commands.

That is why no one used DOS anymore. I've been trying to sell computers with Linux on them for years and guess what the most common question is "Does it have windows". They run away if before I can even tell them about Linux. LOL

So before you even think about marketing.... get the thing to work OUT OF THE BOX. Then focus on marketing.

Shibblet

June 29th, 2009, 05:25 PM

So before you even think about marketing.... get the thing to work OUT OF THE BOX. Then focus on marketing.

I think the only way to do that, is to get the hardware manufacturers to start supporting Linux, and producing drivers.

koenn

June 29th, 2009, 05:47 PM

.... I just bought a new video card for my computer. spent some dough and guess what... no 3-d acceleration.. but I installed the card and guess what. a reboot or two in Windows and it works.

Now I know what people are going to say "Its not our fault, ati/nvidia/whoever didn't release drivers" Guess what folks the common person doesn't care. They dont. they want something that works without having to search for the answer and then typing in a bunch of commands.

That is why no one used DOS anymore. I've been trying to sell computers with Linux on them for years and guess what the most common question is "Does it have windows". They run away if before I can even tell them about Linux. LOL

Ok, then, where would you, as a computer professional, suggest Linux distributions get these drivers if the hardware manufacturer doesn't release them themselves, and are not willing to provide specifications to those devs that would be willing and capable of writing them if they'd had access to the required information to do so?

aysiu

June 29th, 2009, 05:50 PM

I've seen it more often than not that Windows will not support something than that Linux won't. Of course, after you've managed to track down the proper driver for it (not an easy task, especially if you happened to misplace your driver CDs), almost any consumer product will work with Windows.

If you stay away from Canon, Lexmark, and Broadcom, you should be fine for most stuff, though. If you want graphics to work best out of the box, go with an Intel graphics card, but even Nvidia and ATI can be made to work.

Shibblet

June 29th, 2009, 07:19 PM

If you stay away from Canon, Lexmark, and Broadcom, you should be fine for most stuff, though. If you want graphics to work best out of the box, go with an Intel graphics card, but even Nvidia and ATI can be made to work.

And I think that was the point. You have to "make" it work, whereas with Windows, you don't.

Seriously, you install the new Nvidia Graphics drivers in Windows by double-clicking on the icon.

With Ubuntu, you have to drop to shell, stop your windows manager, run the graphics driver program as root, then go through the steps, sometimes you have to configure xorg.conf...

Comparitively speaking, that's a pain-in-the-rectal-oriface.

aysiu

June 29th, 2009, 07:40 PM

And I think that was the point. You have to "make" it work, whereas with Windows, you don't. And my point is that Windows does require you to get it to work. I've been in many situations in which the Windows drivers CD that came with a laptop or desktop was not readily available. In those cases, installing the Windows drivers is not so easy. Yellow question marks don't really give you a lot of information, and even if you know what driver to search for, finding a legitimate driver download site isn't so easy.

monsterstack

June 29th, 2009, 08:48 PM

This is the only bit I would totally disagree with. I don't think it should be advertised as Linux at all. The bits that sit under the interface are irrelevant! Like my mum cares about something called Linux.

It should be advertised as having Ubuntu (or other distro) with the Linux bit in the small print. So many times one person goes use Linux, and the response is no because I didn't like XYZ distro. When its the ditro they didn't like NOT Linux.

Shops that have trialled selling Linux notebooks and such have reported people bringing them back because they expected their Windows programmes to work on them and were dismayed to discover this wasn't the case. These folk then had the impression that Linux must be crap, when all that would have been required was to actually highlight the fact that Linux is completely different, and has applications all of its own.

And I think that was the point. You have to "make" it work, whereas with Windows, you don't.

Seriously, you install the new Nvidia Graphics drivers in Windows by double-clicking on the icon.

With Ubuntu, you have to drop to shell, stop your windows manager, run the graphics driver program as root, then go through the steps, sometimes you have to configure xorg.conf...

Comparitively speaking, that's a pain-in-the-rectal-oriface.

I wonder what version of Ubuntu you're running. Because when I installed Jaunty, my experience was somewhat different. It was quite painless, and in fact it was probably easier and quicker than putting in a CD and selecting the driver I needed. All it required to start working was for me to log out and log back in again (or just restart X).

http://i717.photobucket.com/albums/ww177/stuffandstuffand/Screenshot-1.png

If you're going to hate on Linux, at least be up-to-date with your criticisms.

jonian_g

June 29th, 2009, 09:52 PM

And also you can activate restricted wireless drivers from there too:

http://ubuntuforums.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=119418&stc=1&d=1246326658

Little easier than in windows. Don't you think?

Shibblet

June 29th, 2009, 11:03 PM

If you're going to hate on Linux, at least be up-to-date with your criticisms.

First off, Skippy, you're using an old driver. Try downloading 185.18.14 instead of 180, and then tell me who's up to date.

Secondly, I never said I hate Linux. I merely made a point about simplicity, and I'm sure a lot of people on here would agree. Double-clicking an icon is WAY easier than

CTRL+ALT+F3
Login / Password
$sudo /etc/init.d/gdm stop
$sudo sh NVIDIA-Linux-x86_64-185.18.14-pkg2.run

Don't get me wrong, opening up Add/Remove Programs is a breeze. But I wasn't talking about apps, I was talking about drivers.

So before you go hating on other users, make sure you get your facts straight.

Little easier than in windows. Don't you think?

Yeah, if you want a driver that doesn't fully support your Brand New Video Card. I don't really need "vdpau", it doesn't take a load off of the processor when decoding video...

philcamlin

June 29th, 2009, 11:05 PM

do stupid ads with 4 year olds sending pictures to their moms :D

nah im kidding that would be a fail

they should do tv ads comparing windows to linux and how its better and theres no viruses and you can still riun windows apps and its faster etc...:popcorn:

dtoronto

June 29th, 2009, 11:08 PM

I think if Linux had a more centralized format, like Microsoft and if they had cash to spend on marketing, like Microsoft. Basically if Linux was more like Microsoft they would have a lot more market share.

philcamlin

June 29th, 2009, 11:23 PM

if linux cost 300$ for differnt versions they could spend it on that :P
too bad tv ads arent free :P

monsterstack

June 29th, 2009, 11:42 PM

First off, Skippy, you're using an old driver. Try downloading 185.18.14 instead of 180, and then tell me who's up to date.

Secondly, I never said I hate Linux. I merely made a point about simplicity, and I'm sure a lot of people on here would agree. Double-clicking an icon is WAY easier than

CTRL+ALT+F3
Login / Password
$sudo /etc/init.d/gdm stop
$sudo sh NVIDIA-Linux-x86_64-185.18.14-pkg2.run

Don't get me wrong, opening up Add/Remove Programs is a breeze. But I wasn't talking about apps, I was talking about drivers.

So before you go hating on other users, make sure you get your facts straight.

Apologies for mistaking you for a troll, but still. Anyway, the newest of the new drivers. Well yes, of course. Do you expect nVidia to make us a nice .deb package or something? There isn't much anyone can really do unless they help us out a bit more (or just open the damn drivers already). And additionally, those 185 drivers will eventually get into Jockey, and that is when I will install them. For how many people is this really an issue? Jockey, as far as I'm concerned, is a much easier way to get hold of drivers. If that comes at the cost of not getting the very latest drivers, then so be it.

Yeah, if you want a driver that doesn't fully support your Brand New Video Card. I don't really need "vdpau", it doesn't take a load off of the processor when decoding video...

Try the nvidia-180-libvdpau package. Works fine for me.

aysiu

June 29th, 2009, 11:51 PM

If you need the absolute latest Nvidia or ATI drivers, envyng-gtk is now in the Universe repositories.

Maxplayer14

June 30th, 2009, 01:42 AM

nothing

GCFreak

June 30th, 2009, 03:25 AM

Shibblet

June 30th, 2009, 03:58 AM

You can always open Synaptic and find nvidia-glx-185 as well and then logging out and logging back in, last time I checked, MUCH easier than going to nvidia.com (that many average joes will probably have to Google to know they are there), finding the correct driver for your card, downloading it, and then waiting forever to the driver to install, and then rebooting, and THEN adjusting the video card settings like resolution, refresh rate etc to your optimal settings, while they are already set in the Linux drivers (surprisingly).

Or, double click on the Nvidia icon in Windows. See the point?

Someone on here has a tagline that says something to the effect of... "Those who understand Linux, no explanation is necessary. Those who don't understand Linux, no explanation is enough."

GCFreak

June 30th, 2009, 04:07 AM

Or, double click on the Nvidia icon in Windows. See the point?

NVIDIA icon? What NVIDIA icon? Please explain, I have never found an "NVIDIA icon" without any drivers installed in Windows, and if you mean NVIDIA Settings (when the driver is finally installed), they provide no functionality to automatically update your video drivers to later versions. Not even mentioning how to update it. In fairness, neither does the Linux versions, but that's automatically handled by the package manager, so the average joe doesn't need to worry.

kebabbaro

June 30th, 2009, 05:16 AM

Hi,
i just switched to Ubuntu Jaunty after a horrible year spent with Windows Vista Home Premium which came preinstalled with my ASUS X56 laptop.
I terms of OS experience I'm really an average joe: i could care less about OS wars, the open source movement, and I care even less about learning to write bash script or other geeky thing.

The only reason I switched to Linux is that my preinstalled OS simply sucked. Period.

As an average joe who has little or no experience with linux, this is what i found most puzzling about my 2 weeks with Ubuntu:

1) Why the extensive use of the terminal? I mean, the GUI can do many things for ya, but when you ask the community how to solve some little issue you invariably end up with some bash command lines. I know you can just copy and paste the lines posted, still the CLI is something REALLY scary for the "average non-geeky joe" which can only use the confortable Windows GUI. Besides, if just a little typo is made the CLI stops working
altogether and the average joe is totally clueless on how to proceed.
My advice: hide the CLI as much as you can from the average joe, but regardless include a COMPREHENSIVE CLI wizard in the Ubuntu distro. After all, this is the distro meant for the larger desktop market, isn't it?

2) Why little or no help with hardware configuration? I mean, I wanted to switch to Ubuntu since the Hardy release, but unfortunately Hardy did not recognize my external monitor and I was totally clueless on how to fix the issue. I waited one year, installed Jaunty + the NVidia drivers and everything worked but the correct resolution of my external monitor was not recognized: when ***** like this happens, Ubuntu seems to tell you "f-ck off you silly computer illiterate, I am not wasting any resources to help you out"
So I had to learn from scratch WTF a X-Windows System is, WTF a Xorg.conf file is, WTF a modeline is, and I eventually edited my Xorg.conf file.
But this is NOT a viable solution for the average joe: I succeded just because I was very motivated, but anyone just trying out linux would have given up right away.
My advice: you MUST provide COMPREHENSIVE IDIOT-PROOF wizard on how to fix hardware configuration issues.

3) Internet connection settings configuration still too geeky. Gnome has a GUI tool for this, but I coundn't set my PPPoE device with that and I had to use the terminal once again. That's not confortable for a MS Windows user.

4) Too much choice. I know, that's a plus for the open source movement, but an average MS Windows user is TOO LAZY to sort out such abundance of options. I mean, at least for the DE environment you must provide a SINGLE supported solution. You must choose one DE and say: this is the one DE meant to provide the most effective experience with Ubuntu.You are free to try out or change the DE at will, but this is the one meant for ya.
Average MS Windows user appreciates uniformity, not choice.

That's it. Just my 2 cents.

KEB :rolleyes:

jonian_g

June 30th, 2009, 08:36 AM

First off, Skippy, you're using an old driver. Try downloading 185.18.14 instead of 180, and then tell me who's up to date.

CTRL+ALT+F3
Login / Password
$sudo /etc/init.d/gdm stop
$sudo sh NVIDIA-Linux-x86_64-185.18.14-pkg2.run

So before you go hating on other users, make sure you get your facts straight.

Yeah, if you want a driver that doesn't fully support your Brand New Video Card. I don't really need "vdpau", it doesn't take a load off of the processor when decoding video...

Or you can just add the x-updates (ubuntu official) repository from here and they will be updated AUTOMATICALLY. You have to inform yourself better.

X-updates repo: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-x-swat/+archive/x-updates

Check the screenshoot. Wow, magic!, I have the latest nvidia drivers with zero effort and they update automatically.

RiceMonster

June 30th, 2009, 11:29 AM

Hi,
*snip*

KEB :rolleyes:

*sigh*

Shibblet

June 30th, 2009, 02:41 PM

Or you can just add the x-updates (ubuntu official) repository from here and they will be updated AUTOMATICALLY. You have to inform yourself better.

X-updates repo: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-x-swat/+archive/x-updates

Yep, the better informed I am, the easier it is to install... but still not as easy as double clicking an icon.

Check the screenshoot. Wow, magic!, I have the latest nvidia drivers with zero effort and they update automatically.

I don't know if I'd call it zero-effort, but significantly less effort than downloading, dropping to shell, etc. Plus, that'd be FAR less confusing.

That does sound like a step in the right direction. But look at the effort that it would take for all manufacturers to support Linux in general.

If manufacturers were to support Linux, they'd have to make driver.deb packages. Which is more time spent, more money spent, more support spent, etc. with their hardware. It's an extra expense that only goes out to 1% of the market, at the most. 7-8% Mac market is more reasonable, and clearly the 90% Windows market is the money-maker.

monsterstack

June 30th, 2009, 02:50 PM

Yep, the better informed I am, the easier it is to install... but still not as easy as double clicking an icon.

I don't know if I'd call it zero-effort, but significantly less effort than downloading, dropping to shell, etc. Plus, that'd be FAR less confusing.

That does sound like a step in the right direction. But look at the effort that it would take for all manufacturers to support Linux in general.

If manufacturers were to support Linux, they'd have to make driver.deb packages. Which is more time spent, more money spent, more support spent, etc. with their hardware. It's an extra expense that only goes out to 1% of the market, at the most. 7-8% Mac market is more reasonable, and clearly the 90% Windows market is the money-maker.

It's unfair to expect driver manufacturers to create debs, rpms and the rest, sure. It isn't silly, though, to expect them to make the source available and let the distro maintainers package them accordingly. Man, that would solve so many problems on Linux, it really would.

jonian_g

June 30th, 2009, 04:28 PM

Yep, the better informed I am, the easier it is to install... but still not as easy as double clicking an icon.

I don't know if I'd call it zero-effort, but significantly less effort than downloading, dropping to shell, etc. Plus, that'd be FAR less confusing.

That does sound like a step in the right direction. But look at the effort that it would take for all manufacturers to support Linux in general.

If manufacturers were to support Linux, they'd have to make driver.deb packages. Which is more time spent, more money spent, more support spent, etc. with their hardware. It's an extra expense that only goes out to 1% of the market, at the most. 7-8% Mac market is more reasonable, and clearly the 90% Windows market is the money-maker.

On windows you have to download the file manually every time a new version comes out and go through the installation process (takes time). On ubuntu, you add the repository once and then just do the updates and you have the latest driver. In my eyes is simpler and easier.

If we talk about the average Joe, he doesn't know what a driver is and what vdpau is.

Manufacturers don't have to make a .deb or an .rpm etc. They just have to release the driver in binary and packagers from different distros will create the packages.

If they don't want to make a linux driver because it is an extra expense for them, at least they can release the specs for the hardware so someone else can make a driver.

Shibblet

June 30th, 2009, 04:52 PM

On windows you have to download the file manually every time a new version comes out and go through the installation process (takes time). On ubuntu, you add the repository once and then just do the updates and you have the latest driver. In my eyes is simpler and easier.

Yes it is. But how many people know how to set up a repository. If you know Linux, then you're willing to learn how. 90% of the people out there, don't care.

If we talk about the average Joe, he doesn't know what a driver is and what vdpau is.

True. 90% Average Joe.

Manufacturers don't have to make a .deb or an .rpm etc. They just have to release the driver in binary and packagers from different distros will create the packages.

Take Nvidia for example. They will not release their code to the public. Maybe it gives away a secret, maybe it's just theirs and they want to keep it that way. But Nvidia still gives out Linux drivers... weird.

If they don't want to make a linux driver because it is an extra expense for them, at least they can release the specs for the hardware so someone else can make a driver.

Maybe most companies are afraid of releasing their code, so it can be modified by the general public. Security reasons, overclockers, and custom tweaked drivers all contribute to the company not being able to help you, or assist with warranty.

Bob get's the code for his Wi-Fi card, which is a Wireless-G adapter. Bob finds a driver online that claims it can turn your Wireless-G into a Wireless-N, so Bob downloads it, and it works great... for about a month. Then his card burns out because the driver overclocked the processor on the board. Now Bob want's a refund... You see where this is going.

Vasator

July 1st, 2009, 09:49 AM

To be clear I do not hate Linux but it can be very frustratinig for those who do not know how to use it. Therin lies the problem.

As for drivers I have tried so many methods to get the Nvidia 9500GT to work in Ubuntu that my head has spun completely around twice.

I have a thread dedicated to tracking down how to fix it. Trust me when I find a solution I am going to post my solution in the forum to hopefully help others. That being the case it is still an issue to the topic at hand.

I am no Linux Guru, I have very little free time to work on getting the hardware to work and when I do it is frustrating to try several different methods and they all fail. To an "average Joe" they are just going to take the system to the repair shop and say "put windows on it"

My suggestions would be to create a Knowledge Base of all the information that can be found on the forums and technical information in one place. You have no idea how difficult it is to search the forums and find so many posts that have no answers or worse yet no responses.

Basically this - If the community is strong the software is strong

Exciterusa

July 9th, 2009, 02:36 AM

Looks like our answer has appeared. And it's called Google chrome OS.
http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2009/07/introducing-google-chrome-os.html

Which will be another linux distro. http://www.linuxjournal.com/content/behold-googlification-continues-or-does-it

With the might of Google behind linux we could see large mainstream app developers jumping on board.

starcannon

July 9th, 2009, 04:42 PM

Most of the problems people are complaining about, you know, the "works out of the box with no fuss" stuff, are actually easily solved. Have you ever tried installing Windows lately? And not with the image that came from your OEM, either. Vanilla install of Windows XP or Vista. It isn't a fun thing. And yes, once you're finished, you'll need to sit through a bunch of updates, and even then you'll have poorly-configured drivers to fix. 99% of the things people complain about in Linux can be solved by pre-installs. If an OEM makes and configures a computer to run Ubuntu without any problems, then you can be pretty sure that it will also run Mandriva, Fedora, Debian or whatever with minimal fuss. It doesn't mater how good Linux is; if it isn't installed on the PC when you buy it, many people won't bother. Why should they? They don't want any fuss.
Exactly right; indeed my Dell Ubuntu N series computers (shipped with Ubuntu preinstalled) work right outta the box. And unlike my other OS experience, when I went to do a vanilla Ubuntu install, all but my video card driver worked OOTB, the video card driver was detected and available in the Hardware Drivers utility, and I simply enabled it; I have never had an install that painless in windows. In fact with windows installs, I plug in an Ubuntu LiveCD, run lshw, hop on the lan, locate and download all the drivers, then reboot on the Windows Install CD, install windows, then install the drivers one at a time (what a pita).

JohnWesleyMethodist

July 13th, 2009, 12:34 AM

The only 3 ways Ubuntu can gain market share:

#1 - By getting new computer users to use it. People who have never used a computer before and aren't addicted to xyz Windows app. This can only be done by individual Linux users introducing family and friends to Linux.
#2 - Become 100% Windows compatible. There are projects in existence to make Linux compatible and of course there is ReactOS which could be a detriment to Linux.
#3 - Replace the outdated Windows OS on the older computer so people can keep using it. People who are still running Windows 9x machines because it works for them still. Those people need to get hammered with the reality that Ubuntu is free and modern. It's modern in that it supports software that is up-to-date, it's attractive looking and runs lots of software that just isn't available on 9x anymore. I see people on the internet with a "Keep 98 Alive" campaign. If they want to keep it on the hard-drive for some apps that's great, but dual-boot with Ubuntu at least so you have a modern OS for the internet!

It's something that will take time. You can't take your average Windows user and expect them to happily use Linux. Why? Because they have some program that they have been using for so many years and they can't run it on Linux. Even if there is a replacement program on Linux that works just as well or better, they will want to remain with what they know.

pointyblufish

July 13th, 2009, 09:35 AM

What Linux needs are good killer app. Ubuntu works better out of the box than Windows XP does. I don't know about Vista or 7, but I installed XP a few months ago and it was a royal pain. Lots of updates. Lots of wonky configurations. Having to roll back from IE 7 that I accidentally installed and still not being able to clean it completely. It's bad. But at least I know that once I have XP relatively stable and intact on my computer I can do what I need to do.

To someone who is unfamiliar with Ubuntu applications, how exactly do I go about getting a good text pad app? I could use the add/remove menu and get a whole ton of options and have to research each one. Even then I'll be downloading a version of that app that's probably not up to date so I'll have to visit the app's website, if I can find it, and update. Not good.

What about something more complicated like a Photoshop replacement? Please don't say GIMP. GIMP has 8 bit editing and no adjustment layers. So the point here is that if Ubuntu folks want a bigger market share they need to get on the case of FOSS developers to create those killer apps or put killer features into apps that people have been asking about for years now.

I reinstall XP about once a year, but every year before reinstalling I try a quick Ubuntu install. Every year Ubuntu gets better. I think the OS itself has reached a glass ceiling and now it's up to the app developers to help the cause a bit instead of scratching their own itches. I don't think Ubuntu can increase its market share instantly by grabbing completely amateur users - you have to start with those users on the fence who are dissatisfied with Windows and Apple.

Shibblet

July 13th, 2009, 02:19 PM

I reinstall XP about once a year, but every year before reinstalling I try a quick Ubuntu install. Every year Ubuntu gets better. I think the OS itself has reached a glass ceiling and now it's up to the app developers to help the cause a bit instead of scratching their own itches. I don't think Ubuntu can increase its market share instantly by grabbing completely amateur users - you have to start with those users on the fence who are dissatisfied with Windows and Apple.

I've wondered if there is much more that can be done to Ubuntu, besides adding drivers, and tweaking old ones for performance.

JohnWesleyMethodist

July 13th, 2009, 09:11 PM

I've wondered if there is much more that can be done to Ubuntu, besides adding drivers, and tweaking old ones for performance.

How about a simple feature like taking a program icon off the desktop and dragging it up into the Applications menu, carrying it down to the sub-menu of your choice (for example: System Tools) and then letting go of the mouse and seeing a short-cut icon drop into the selected location?!? In Windows this is no problem at all! Why is it so darn hard in Ubuntu?

Why can't I just drag an icon from one Applications sub-menu to another?

Shibblet

July 22nd, 2009, 06:32 PM

Stop the command line!

Linux has a bad reputation for not being user friendly. Whereas I don't truly believe that it is any less friendly than Windows, I think if a majority of your tasks can be completed without using the terminal, it might change a public perception.

Most of our daily tasks can be completed without ever using the Terminal, but what about system updates and such? If the Ubuntu community dedicated themselves to making .DEB packages or automated scripts that fix hardware issues, this would be a major improvement.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate all of the support that the Ubuntu community gives, and I also appreciate the "line-by-line" fixes that are available, such as the Intel Graphics performance thread.

But an average-joe user doesn't want to play command line. They want to point and click. It puts them in a comfort zone.

munky99999

July 22nd, 2009, 06:56 PM

Stop the command line!

woah woah woah.

Windows even has command line. So um ya...

But an average-joe user doesn't want to play command line. They want to point and click. It puts them in a comfort zone.
The average user then ought not configure the computer?

Making the OS less secure and annoying as seen through UAC in vista. Is not going to make ubuntu better.

Shibblet

July 22nd, 2009, 06:59 PM

I didn't mean get rid of the terminal. Just have alternative ways around it.

Users who are comfortable with Terminal will find their Ubuntu experience significantly better and faster. Those who aren't will still be able to enjoy their Ubuntu experience without the uncomfortable feeling of command line operations.

andrew.g

July 22nd, 2009, 07:34 PM

I've installed Linux for people who do not know what a terminal is or what is an operating system for. Many remark on how their new computer is so much faster than before and congratulate me, with one proviso.

"About the blue E". I did not ask, I just re-installed whatever version of Windows that came with their PC and have done with it. I could have shown them Opera or Firefox and any number of advantages on not using IE, it would have fallen on deaf ears.

Hell, I installed Windows for a guy because he was partial to comet-cursors. I think I gave up not long after that.

HotForLinux

July 30th, 2009, 03:02 PM

- Improve Gimp.
Gimp is very good but there are many little things that would improve it by saving time to the user.

- An AUTOCAD application

- A good accounting application for small businesses.

- A useful spanish-english dictionary

- Nautilus is slow and wastes a lot of space

Promote GNU-Linux / Ubuntu in you mails

Add the following to your signature:

English:
--
<a href="http://www.ubuntu.com/products/whatisubuntu/904features/"><img src="http://img233.yfrog.com/img233/7348/ubuntulogoformailen2.png" width="500" height="50"></a>
Spanish:
--
<a href="http://www.ubuntu.com/products/whatisubuntu/904features/"><img src="http://img145.yfrog.com/img145/7672/ubuntulogoformailes2.png" width="500" height="50"></a>So that it looks like:

--
http://img233.yfrog.com/img233/7348/ubuntulogoformailen2.png (http://www.ubuntu.com/products/whatisubuntu/904features/)

or

--
http://img145.yfrog.com/img145/7672/ubuntulogoformailes2.png (http://www.ubuntu.com/products/whatisubuntu/904features/)

You could also say: "This mail has been sent without using privative software"

or build a similar thing for yourself or in your language or make it link to somewhere else.

.