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wandalalakers
June 20th, 2009, 02:35 AM
Have you ever had a co-worker grill you about why you use linux?
I told one co-worker a while ago that I started using Ubuntu and love it. Another co-worker said he is using windows 7 and loves it.

I told him I don't use windows anymore I use linux.
He said, "Windows 7 is faster than vista.".
I said, "You can make an old or new pc fast with the latest firefox, etc.".
He said, "Microsoft is coming out with an anti-virus software".
I said, "I think it's just a version of their one live software." "I don't have to worry about viruses and spyware as much.".
He said, "What about Microsoft Office?"
I said, "I use OpenOffice."
He said, "I got windows 7 from a friends for free."
I said, "Ubuntu is updated every six months."
I would have showed him some stuff but I figured why bother. I had a ubuntu and xubuntu boot cd in my nerd bag but I figured he would then say what about running windows programs?". I'll admit that I use XP on an old laptop at home but that's because I have some specialized karaoke software that won't run using wine. I bet once windows act like linux in the sense that you insert your flash drive, cd, dvd, garmin, etc and the icons for each object appear on the desktop, he'll tell windows can do that. I'll just say been there done that with ubuntu.

HappyFeet
June 20th, 2009, 04:06 AM
"Why do windows users think you are supposed to use only windows?"

Because people are brainwashed into thinking that computers=windows. Let them believe what they want, it's their loss.

leclerc65
June 20th, 2009, 04:22 AM
It's pointless to argue with people who refuse to move to a highler level spiritually.:p

jflaker
June 20th, 2009, 04:34 AM
It's pointless to argue with people who refuse to move to a highler level spiritually.:p

You can't argue with stupid and you can't argue with those who have no knowledge of what you speak....you would get a better argument from your dog.

The proof is in the pudding. 2 identical machines side-by-side from boot to login is the first test.....With Ubuntu, I bet I will be already online before a windows machine even gets to show the login dialog.

Also, I've use the LiveCD twice now to recover data from a dead system.....try doing that with windows!

Tamlynmac
June 20th, 2009, 05:16 AM
I believe that it's ignorance, not stupidity. If one doesn't know any better or doesn't have an opportunity to learn and understand, then expecting them to react in a certain manner, is IMHO foolish. Their only reference for understanding resides in Windows - what do you expect? How can one expect them to make comparisons or even comprehend a different OS? Based on my time in the forum, it's been my experience that most new Ubuntu users compare Windows with Ubuntu when first starting. For that very reasons.

I don't push Ubuntu nor do I waste time arguing with Windows users that have no desire to expand their horizons. As HappyFeet states "it their loss" and in my opinion a waste of my time. Unlike many others I really don't endeavor to attract Windows users to Ubuntu any more. I'm not an elitist (as some have suggested), only a user that enjoys the Ubuntu experience and has no desire to waste time recuiting from the Windows ranks. If they ask, I always help. If they don't, I could care less.

aufan19
June 20th, 2009, 05:34 AM
It's probably because many people don't know (or think) that they have options when it comes to operating systems and software.

For example, typing documents and spreadsheets in Office. Before I knew about open source software, it was the only productivity suite I had been exposed to, and I thought it was the only way typing reports and spreadsheets could be done, so I went out and bought a copy.

evermooingcow
June 20th, 2009, 07:50 AM
Windows only users probably have a hard time picturing an OS that works differently. I know I was overwhelmed with new concepts when I first tried Linux.

lisati
June 20th, 2009, 07:56 AM
"Why do windows users think you are supposed to use only windows?"

Because people are brainwashed into thinking that computers=windows. Let them believe what they want, it's their loss.
I wish to suggest that it's not so much because they are brainwashed, but that they either don't know any better, or are fed misinformation on the courses they attend.


Windows only users probably have a hard time picturing an OS that works differently. I know I was overwhelmed with new concepts when I first tried Linux.
I wasn't so much overwhelmed with new ideas when trying out Ubuntu the first time. Many of the basics are the same or have at least a passing similarity.


<aside>Mrs Lisati looked at taking a free computer course once. I had a look at some of the course notes: it was based around XP, which was OK, (I had two machines with XP at the time) but it was sufficiently different to the way XP was setup on my machine that it could've been confusing for her - for one thing they used Microsoft Office (I use Open Office). Another difference was the login screen.</aside>

lancest
June 20th, 2009, 10:38 AM
People often feed me a lot of misinformation about Linux. Often because they are so oriented towards using Windows.
As far as I'm concerned Windows and Linux are quite different animals. They can do many of the same things but their emphasis is different. Windows is strongest in proprietary software, and Linux is best as a secure Internet workstation. Linux and FOSS are way better suited to modern online computing in my view. Born and raised on the net- that's Linux.

waspbr
June 20th, 2009, 01:31 PM
actually I think this is a little deeper than just windows brainwashing. Some people, actually a lot of people, won't stop to consider an argument that questions their choices. They associate that with weakness and thus become defensive.

Unfortunately this is quite a common piece of human behaviour. Thinking that everything you have is the best and whatever else is crap.

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." Aristotle

solwic
June 20th, 2009, 02:56 PM
I believe that it's ignorance, not stupidity. If one doesn't know any better or doesn't have an opportunity to learn and understand, then expecting them to react in a certain manner, is IMHO foolish. Their only reference for understanding resides in Windows - what do you expect? How can one expect them to make comparisons or even comprehend a different OS? Based on my time in the forum, it's been my experience that most new Ubuntu users compare Windows with Ubuntu when first starting. For that very reasons.

I don't push Ubuntu nor do I waste time arguing with Windows users that have no desire to expand their horizons. As HappyFeet states "it their loss" and in my opinion a waste of my time. Unlike many others I really don't endeavor to attract Windows users to Ubuntu any more. I'm not an elitist (as some have suggested), only a user that enjoys the Ubuntu experience and has no desire to waste time recuiting from the Windows ranks. If they ask, I always help. If they don't, I could care less.

I agree. Most people have never heard of Ubuntu, and have only a sketchy knowledge of Linux in general. Expecting them to not side with what they know is nonsensical.

But I don't waste my time pushing Linux anymore, either. Ultimately, it just doesn't matter. If I run across someone using Ubuntu or Linux, I give 'em a thumbs-up. If someone asks, I'm more than happy to help out. But I've learned in time that switching to Linux is like losing weight or quitting smoking: you have to want it. Every Ubuntu user in the world could get together, with all their vast, collective knowledge, and they won't be able to convert a single person who doesn't want to be converted.

If that's true (and I believe it is, obviously), why bother? Light and dark are the same thing if your eyes are closed.

IMO, anyway.

Chevanova
June 20th, 2009, 06:08 PM
Windows only users probably have a hard time picturing an OS that works differently. I know I was overwhelmed with new concepts when I first tried Linux.

Well said brother

73ckn797
June 20th, 2009, 06:18 PM
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." Aristotle

+1

Without contemplation of different/new ideas you will never know the differences or similarities of other ideas in comparison to your own. Your own may change and they may not but you will walk away more informed and able to distinguish any differences and be able to address those who may/will question your position. It may pursuade or harden the other but, hopefully, make them think about it.

This applies in all areas, OS's too.

Ceedub2
June 20th, 2009, 07:35 PM
I have a friend who never has been around a single computer to know much until a few months ago. His pc runs Xp but if he would of bought a pc with Ubuntu on it he would use it just the same.

On that note I am thinking of buying another pc for running win and ubuntu for the kids. So I can run Ubuntu on mine alone.:D

m4tic
June 22nd, 2009, 11:41 PM
I use both windows and ubuntu.i started using computers 3years ago. Both have their purposes but i feel at home with windows than ubuntu. And i do not appreciate it when i express my views about this and moderators give me threats about it. SMIKE ME ALMIGHTY MODERATOR! But its ok i love windows and both ubuntu but please try to listen and not decide for others dear moderators on a 'testimonials section'.

Tamlynmac
June 23rd, 2009, 06:14 AM
m4tic
Both have their purposes but i feel at home with windows than ubuntu. And i do not appreciate it when i express my views about this and moderators give me threats about it.

One should make an effort to understand that this is an Ubuntu/Linux forum. I suspect that when the mods get involved, it often comes down to the fact that - they are responsible for controlling this forum.

Perhaps logic might suggest you seek an alternative forum to participate in with regards to Windows. One that specifically targets Windows as their primary OS of discussion. You may find it significantly more rewarding than arguing with the mods here.

Just my $0.02




iRun

Light and dark are the same thing if your eyes are closed.

I agree.

It's unfortunately that complacency and conditioning play a big role in how we observe.

Most everyone I know struggles with some form of complacency (including myself). I truly believe we seek comfort in stability and when considering alternatives, we posture based on insecurity.

starcannon
June 25th, 2009, 01:50 AM
Have you ever had a co-worker grill you about why you use linux?
I told one co-worker a while ago that I started using Ubuntu and love it. Another co-worker said he is using windows 7 and loves it.

I told him I don't use windows anymore I use linux.

Thats where it became a challenge :)
I don't tell people much of anything about linux anymore unless I'm helping with a new pc purchase. Then I show them whats available, what it will mean to them, and if they are interested, I then let them check out a liveCD. I have 3 Ubuntu clients using this method. Not many, but I only ever hear from them when they buy a new printer or camera or something; they call, ask what they should buy, I do a bit of compatibility research, tell them, and then don't hear from them again for a very long time.... hmmm... better rethink this.... not good for mortgage lol

king2007
July 24th, 2009, 11:01 PM
quote
But I've learned in time that switching to Linux is like losing weight or quitting smoking: you have to want it
unquote

So i am so VERY pissed ! at microsoft at windows but at linux ubuntu as well !! since hardy heron i was attracted to ubuntu, but using windows is not something one can leave overnight, right. i have an open mind - i notice mac is not for me and steve jobs can have his macintoshes YAK - again YAK !.
now installing Ubuntu is one thing and loosing XP another - using vista and at the same time upgrading to windows 7 :
it's all part of discovering what is out there. ever since the workstations i was interested in computers as well as software.
a friend of mine uses hardy heron 8.04 lts-version, so i figured i like to do that too - comes upgrade to intrepid ibex 8.10 ...... no sound !! downloading karmic koala alpha 3 NICE - does not install yet properly maybe because the final release is only in october next. says it comes with GRUB 2 a NEW BOOTLOADER FINALLY !! does not work yet .....
in the meantime struggling with GRUB, supergrubdisk, bcdexe, bootloaders, linux-readers, partitioning i have a ******* whole disc available for LINUX but it WON'T BOOT !!!!! attempts to repair xp and having the windows 7 bootloader allowing me to write this text and I HAVE TO WANT TO USE UBUNTU !! wubi shows me only the dutch language YAK - i want to have installed a complete Ubuntu-system, which dualboots apart from the micro$ofts systems - have you thrown away ALL your windows-files the moment you started with Ubuntu ?
i also read about micro$oft blocking all other operating systems and why one cannot have windows 98 and XP on one and the same computer-system. okeh, still not defeated and trying to install gutsy gibbon .... guess what ? errors on grub
it won't boot !! :confused:

HappyFeet
July 24th, 2009, 11:15 PM
Did you start a thread in the appropriate forum asking for help?

Tamlynmac
July 24th, 2009, 11:37 PM
HappyFeet
Did you start a thread in the appropriate forum asking for help?

I believe I see a pattern developing here. You keep pointing out the obvious with minimal results. Perhaps, your logic and common sense is misplaced. :D

Then again perhaps not. :-k

L815
July 24th, 2009, 11:38 PM
You can't argue about those who don't know much about computers, and are accustomed to Windows from OEM builds.

You can complain about those who refuse to look past anything other than Windows, for the simple reasoning of their ignorance.

As a side note: If people like Windows let them. I like it; it works well for me. Although for me, it just happens to turn out that I like the Linux environment a bit more.

If you have an option to sit on the floor, couch, or chair, you'll get different responses from random people, but MAJORITY would probably pick a couch for comfort. This doesn't mean that it's wrong.

Garrovick
July 25th, 2009, 12:58 AM
And of course, just reading the forums, the exact reverse is true also. My netbook is Ubuntu, my laptop is Vista. If I had a second netbook, it would be OSX

There are many Linux snobs, just like there are many Windows and Apple snobs.

How many posts here in this forum start out with outright Windows hate? Just to be posting Windows hate. With great big look at me grins on thier faces.

Just thinking out loud.....

Dullstar
July 25th, 2009, 06:42 AM
It's probably because a lot of Linux users made the switch because of Windows.

conradin
July 25th, 2009, 06:55 AM
Ha ha ha, I made my linux box look just like vista. and everyone comments on how well it always works. "I cant believe this is vista..." Lol, shock that things work? What version of vista is it? Linux Vista. Best one out there.

Dullstar
July 25th, 2009, 06:59 AM
Awesome! Ah, how I hate Vista in every way.

theremper
July 25th, 2009, 01:08 PM
I posted this in an other forum but it also fits here and answers the question at hand perfectly

most people come to computers in there teens or younger. They are mainly using the computer for games. Then as they grow they begin to do other things. The person learns the operating system they have been using all along and do not want to change. To be honest GNU/Linux needs either brand name games or become known as sexy like macs have. To be honest Ubuntu can be made more sexy than anything apple can be.

here is my outlook for the next 20 years for operating systems for the average home user

Windows will be down 30 percent of the market ubuntu will be 30
googles Chrome os will be 10 percent mac os will be 20 percent and the last 10 percent will be other Linux distros and operating systems.

Here how I come to this microsoft is losing market share due to the need for high end machines compatibility problems and becoming more difficult to use.

Google Chrome os will become increasing on mini laptops making people realize they don't need windows.

Ubuntu will just keep on pushing forward.

The next 20 years in computing should be interesting. The main reasons is the big titians that brought the home computing age to us are aging and are playing defensive. Linux while still not the majority is silently marching forward. Conquering ground without fan fair one computer at a time. The giants know they can not win back those systems.

king2007
July 25th, 2009, 04:40 PM
Did you start a thread in the appropriate forum asking for help?

not yet ! looking at the heading this is about windows-users.
i was merely saying that as a beginning linux/ubuntu-user i am to become an ex windows-user. having installed jaunty jackalope now on my second disc it works perfectly, except i have to use F8 to get into my start-up screen. as you very well know booting is a nightmare and one is screwed if you do not know that windows does not allow that......):P

heroidi
July 25th, 2009, 09:55 PM
GNU/Linux users in Kosova are a minority and when i tell people about Free Software and Software Freedom and anything else they say isn't windows free to, this is because people use Cracked and Pirated windows software yep really true, when i tell them when the Copyright and the Licenses law comes to Kosova you probatly will not efford to use windows most of them say ahhhh this law will never be applied but bla bla bla, then i show them Ubuntu and Compiz and the other things most of them get amazed but most of them are afraid to change because of the apps.

Dullstar
July 26th, 2009, 04:53 AM
Windows is irrelevant now, but I don't think Chrome OS will turn out too great. From the sounds of things, it WILL require the Internet to do much of anything other than use electricity.

philcamlin
July 26th, 2009, 05:00 AM
my grandpa who knows nothign about computers. i asked him this

Q:do you like windows ?

A: yeah they keep the house warm

my grandma however compiles kernels@@!@ shes 68 :popcorn:

Dullstar
July 26th, 2009, 05:03 AM
That is hilarious. How can she compile kernels at that age for her generation? Amazing!

philcamlin
July 26th, 2009, 05:03 AM
i have no idea i just showed her some things after her windows died and she started ubing ubuntu and got right into it

Dullstar
July 26th, 2009, 05:17 AM
...and can now compile kernels? Either you made a typo or have one amazing grandma.

philcamlin
July 26th, 2009, 05:17 AM
shes mint :D

im learning from her O_o

Dullstar
July 26th, 2009, 05:20 AM
Woah. Wish I could get that from my grandparents, but unfortunately, neither uses computers at all. One of them has a computer, but to my knowledge hasn't used it in years, the other has never owned/tried a computer.

Tamlynmac
July 27th, 2009, 12:14 AM
Dullstar
That is hilarious. How can she compile kernels at that age for her generation? Amazing!

Might I suggest you never underestimate anyone, no matter what their age.

I have a very good young friend who refers to me as "this old guy he knows living in Colorado", but I think if you ask him - he'll admit that age has nothing what so ever to do with ability. As a matter of fact, as we age we may often gain wisdom and become more knowledgeable. We learn our limitations and our strengths. For many older people their experiences help them to adapt and learn. Not all choose that path, but it is an option.

With age, often comes patience and tolerance. IMHO, two of the most valuable concepts in life. Neither of which, have I been historically good at. :D

Dullstar
July 27th, 2009, 06:30 AM
Actually, I just think it's amazing. It's nice to have a reminder that the elderly are not always living a computer-free life!

I personally just think it's amazing that the grandma can do that! Of course, to me, it's amazing if you can do it no matter who you are as long as you're an everyday person!

starcannon
July 27th, 2009, 08:18 AM
Have you ever had a co-worker grill you about why you use linux?
I told one co-worker a while ago that I started using Ubuntu and love it. Another co-worker said he is using windows 7 and loves it.

I told him I don't use windows anymore I use linux.
He said, "Windows 7 is faster than vista.".
I said, "You can make an old or new pc fast with the latest firefox, etc.".
He said, "Microsoft is coming out with an anti-virus software".
I said, "I think it's just a version of their one live software." "I don't have to worry about viruses and spyware as much.".
He said, "What about Microsoft Office?"
I said, "I use OpenOffice."
He said, "I got windows 7 from a friends for free."
I said, "Ubuntu is updated every six months."
I would have showed him some stuff but I figured why bother. I had a ubuntu and xubuntu boot cd in my nerd bag but I figured he would then say what about running windows programs?". I'll admit that I use XP on an old laptop at home but that's because I have some specialized karaoke software that won't run using wine. I bet once windows act like linux in the sense that you insert your flash drive, cd, dvd, garmin, etc and the icons for each object appear on the desktop, he'll tell windows can do that. I'll just say been there done that with ubuntu.


Never try to teach a pig to sing;
It only wastes your time,
And annoys the pig.

Dullstar
July 27th, 2009, 08:57 AM
Windows is the plague; avoid it. Because that's how much Windows crashes!

Don't know about 7, though, actually.

Never used it, never seen it in action, and never really read anything about it as far as reviews go.

virginbala
July 27th, 2009, 05:27 PM
windows users scary about ubuntu commands:popcorn:

juancarlospaco
July 27th, 2009, 08:54 PM
Whats Windows ?, is a BSD-Like or incomming version of Apple OS ?

tcturner
July 27th, 2009, 09:01 PM
To be fair windows comes preinstalled with just about any computer you buy. My father who is 74 years young buys one and is able to use it "out of the box". Not so with many distros of linux or any other free os. If my dad had to set up his puter with linux as I do I would crash. thanks tcturner

philcamlin
July 27th, 2009, 09:03 PM
well people only know of windows

#1 they dont care about anything else
#2 they only use it for basic things
#3sudo apt-get is WTF! to them using windows update :popcorn:

hyperAura
July 27th, 2009, 09:34 PM
The Foundation started by using Linux and security programmer David A. Wheeler's methodology from his 2002's groundbreaking study, Linux: More Than a Gigabuck: Estimating GNU/Linux's Size (http://www.dwheeler.com/sloc/redhat71-v1/redhat71sloc.html). The results of applying these tools to 2008's Fedora 9 Linux came out to a total of 204,500,946 physical SLOC (Source Lines of Code) and a cost of $10,784,484,309. But, lucky you, you can download it for free from the Fedora Web site and you won't need to spend a penny on it.



Have you ever thought about what an insane bargain Linux really is? You can, and many of you do, spend wheelbarrows of money on Windows and for what? To get an operating system that requires monthly updates to keep it barely secure and additional cost anti-virus and anti-malware programs to try to keep it secure.

We're really very lucky. Thanks to Linus Torvalds and Richard M. Stallman's thought that it's better to share intellectual wealth rather than hoard it, we're blessed not just with an operating system, but with thousands of top-notch open-source software programs that let us do our work, connect with the world, listen to music, watch television and play games. Linux: it may just be the best software deal in the history of the world.


Source:
http://blogs.computerworld.com/204_5_million_lines_of_code_equals_one_great_linux _distribution

Garrovick
July 28th, 2009, 01:36 AM
Why not just use Ubuntu Minimal and really dump Windows?

Why use "Windows look/act alike" Jaunty 9.04.

denham2010
July 28th, 2009, 09:16 AM
I think the majority of users out there would not even know the difference between a computer and an OS.

Think about it...

... you buy a PC (from a mainstream dealer...why would I want to buy individual parts and build it myself when someone else will do that for me...etc) and it already has windows on it.

So as far as the buyer is concerned, windows is the computer. If i want OSX, I have to buy another computer, so it must be the same with windows, They are the computer....

What's this Linux thing? It must mean I have to buy a new computer to use it...

The vast majority of users have never had to install an OS. The computer breaks down, I take it in for service and it comes back working.

This whole XP - Vista - Windows 7 scenario....to the user, they are not installing a new OS, they are upgrading their 'computer', or they have a more knowledgeable friend do it for them, or again, they take it into a store and it comes back just working.

Now, don't get me wrong, this is not a dig at all these users. They just don't know better, and why would they really need to when the computer just does what they want it to?

This is where Microsoft 'won' the 'popularity' stakes. It's not that Windows is popular because people like it, it's popular because when you buy a computer, it's just there...and because it's just there, why should I change it to something else?

The only way Linux will begin to make serious in-roads is to break the OEM monopoly of Microsoft.......a seriously difficult (but let me say not impossible) task to achieve!

Even then, it would be very slow progress. People are inherently lazy, they will not do anything they do not have to do. And another big part is the 'herd mentality', my prime example of this would be the 1st gen iPhone. It cost a lot more than most phones, does a lot less than most phones, but sold like there was no tomorrow because 'everyone else has one, so should I'

Cheers!

starcannon
July 28th, 2009, 09:46 PM
The Foundation started by using Linux and security programmer David A. Wheeler's methodology from his 2002's groundbreaking study, Linux: More Than a Gigabuck: Estimating GNU/Linux's Size (http://www.dwheeler.com/sloc/redhat71-v1/redhat71sloc.html). The results of applying these tools to 2008's Fedora 9 Linux came out to a total of 204,500,946 physical SLOC (Source Lines of Code) and a cost of $10,784,484,309. But, lucky you, you can download it for free from the Fedora Web site and you won't need to spend a penny on it.



Have you ever thought about what an insane bargain Linux really is? You can, and many of you do, spend wheelbarrows of money on Windows and for what? To get an operating system that requires monthly updates to keep it barely secure and additional cost anti-virus and anti-malware programs to try to keep it secure.

We're really very lucky. Thanks to Linus Torvalds and Richard M. Stallman's thought that it's better to share intellectual wealth rather than hoard it, we're blessed not just with an operating system, but with thousands of top-notch open-source software programs that let us do our work, connect with the world, listen to music, watch television and play games. Linux: it may just be the best software deal in the history of the world.


Source:
http://blogs.computerworld.com/204_5_million_lines_of_code_equals_one_great_linux _distribution

^^
This

Dullstar
July 28th, 2009, 10:02 PM
It doesn't have to be Linux that breaks the monopoly. We just need to break the monopoly with, say, how about refusing to get a computer with ******* already installed?

Sure, a lot of you would say to get a machine with Linux preinstalled, but the local Best Buy (pretty much the only electronics store around here) don't even sell Macs (although I hear this can vary by location), which are a bit more well known and used. What are the chances of them carrying Linux boxes?

Don't get me wrong, I love Linux, but my next computer will be a Mac OS X/Ubuntu dual-booting computer. If I get a MacBook, then I should be able to get both operating systems!

windows-killer
July 29th, 2009, 12:19 AM
"Why do windows users think you are supposed to use only windows?"

Because people are brainwashed into thinking that computers=windows. Let them believe what they want, it's their loss.

Exactly the same thing with Linux to be fair. In this case Computers = GPL

Dullstar
July 29th, 2009, 04:03 AM
ummm... sorry. Computers do not equal GPL...

bcschmerker
July 29th, 2009, 09:56 AM
Most in the corporate world could be considered sheeple from the LinUX world's perspective, whereas I'm very much an experimenter. The experimenters have a lot in common with independent-minded trekkers of the immediately-post-War-for-Independence United States.

Microsoft Corporation started from BASIC in the mid-1970's and now has an empire in the Windows family of products, a constant around which commercial vendors mass-manufacture application suites and hardware/software package. The once nice thing about Windows: It left me a few pieces of reliable hardware that I can use on my rat-rod Everex under Ubuntu 8.04-LTS (and the yet-to-come Ubuntu Lucid Lynx, scheduled out for testing Autumn 2009), in addition to an enviromnent that handles closed-source applications and processes with who knows how many patents and copyrights are filed on them---applications and processes that, in some cases, cannot be legally replicated in the open-source community.

I first cut my LinUX teeth on an Asus SP97-V-based homebuild with Red Hat version 5.1, so I had no trouble getting up to speed on my Everex as delivered with all-VIA circuitry and eventually turning it into the Gigabyte/AMD-equipped rat rod that it is today, complete with case modifications such as a wind tunnel fabbed from an HVAC nipple to feed the CPU fan. Contributor Debian packages have accelerated the process to the point where I can plan a custom Kernel build around already-in-hand and yet-to-be-put-in hardware, something not possible with Windows. In an ironic twist, Microsoft has borrowed a LinUX-world standard for hardware certification and made it prerequisite for Webcams and audio devices for Windows Vista and version 7. To which I say: Windows pulling an idea from LinUX for 7? Who'd have thunk it!

rannable
July 29th, 2009, 11:00 AM
I think there are good and bad points to both sides of the arguments- die-hard fans exist in both camps, a good IT pro knows the benefits of all OS's and uses whatever he/she needs...

necromonger
July 29th, 2009, 03:49 PM
it's because they love a good killer virus.

Dullstar
July 29th, 2009, 11:41 PM
Of course, there are many that don't know what an OS is, probably.

lancest
July 31st, 2009, 07:05 AM
I think there are good and bad points to both sides of the arguments- die-hard fans exist in both camps, a good IT pro knows the benefits of all OS's and uses whatever he/she needs...
Probably agree with this statement somewhat. However i seriously doubt most Windows pro's have much skill at Linux CLI, Bash, Python, Perl etc.
This makes them basically Microsoft only skilled professionals.

Dullstar
August 1st, 2009, 05:29 AM
Would they really need to know programming?

I was able to switch to Linux without any prior knowledge of programming. I only know programming now because I chose to learn it.

Dobbie03
August 1st, 2009, 05:44 AM
I believe that it's ignorance, not stupidity. If one doesn't know any better or doesn't have an opportunity to learn and understand, then expecting them to react in a certain manner, is IMHO foolish. Their only reference for understanding resides in Windows - what do you expect? How can one expect them to make comparisons or even comprehend a different OS? Based on my time in the forum, it's been my experience that most new Ubuntu users compare Windows with Ubuntu when first starting. For that very reasons.

I don't push Ubuntu nor do I waste time arguing with Windows users that have no desire to expand their horizons. As HappyFeet states "it their loss" and in my opinion a waste of my time. Unlike many others I really don't endeavor to attract Windows users to Ubuntu any more. I'm not an elitist (as some have suggested), only a user that enjoys the Ubuntu experience and has no desire to waste time recuiting from the Windows ranks. If they ask, I always help. If they don't, I could care less.

I tried recruiting people to Ubuntu, I gave up....they dont have the balls to try something new or experiment.

Dullstar
August 1st, 2009, 05:51 AM
People don't seem to like going to anything new it seems... I was at least able to make my parents use Firefox!

Convinced my dad to use OpenOffice as well. At least I got that far.

Sef
August 1st, 2009, 06:16 AM
moved to recurring discussions.

lancest
August 1st, 2009, 07:33 AM
Would they really need to know programming?

I was able to switch to Linux without any prior knowledge of programming. I only know programming now because I chose to learn it.

My point is that you are not a "Linux pro" unless you are good with the terminal and at least good knowledge of getting things done with Bash shell. Sure Linux could be used without knowing it but most of what you can do must be done with the GUI. In my opinion that is really the "Microsoft way" and is a real weakness in an IT pro's skills who doesn't know it. It wouldn't be suitable in a place requiring strong Unix type skills- lets say.

tsali
August 1st, 2009, 01:39 PM
In response to the OP, why is every discussion of this nature an argument?

Your friend was excited and thought he knew about something you'd find interesting.

I have similar conversations with my friends about our motorcycles. Most ride a very common American brand. I do not, but we are all enthusiasts. When they get excited about what The Motor Company is doing, I ask them to "tell me more". It gives us a chance to build a relationship and they get to feel good about what they know or have learned.

I still feel like my brand of motorcycle is superior but I think they'd get tired of me rattling that refrain.

Their friendship is more important to me than the kind of motorcycle they ride. The last thing I want is for them to start associating "jerk" with my brand of bike.

Because of this approach, they have learned more about the bike I ride and I've come to understand why they love theirs like they do.

But we all love riding together

CaseSensative
August 1st, 2009, 02:05 PM
Why do a lot of Linux users think they have to persuade every Windows users mind in to loving Linux? Granted I did completly switch to linux, not for the open source or the custom ability, but the fact it was free and my Widows XP Hard drive got corrupted.

Saying people are stupid? That wont make them want to switch to Linux any faster.

Giant Speck
August 1st, 2009, 02:08 PM
Saying people are stupid? That wont make them want to switch to Linux any faster.

Or like you, for that matter.

hyperAura
August 1st, 2009, 02:19 PM
well no need to push any1 for switch over from windows linux.. people are free to choose even though i think there are a lot of people that havent even heard about linux, in my country at least.. i was wondering if any version of linux is being demonstrated to the public by any means in other countries (through commercials or conferences)..

MichealH
August 1st, 2009, 02:27 PM
"Why do windows users think you are supposed to use only windows?"

Because people are brainwashed into thinking that computers=windows. Let them believe what they want, it's their loss.

Whenever I tell my friends they are like what???? What is that and generally windows users think u should use windows because in general they think there is no other os

ticopelp
August 1st, 2009, 05:08 PM
Yes. I have a friend who insists that Windows is perfect, and that all the security holes and user interface problems are a result of people "installing Windows wrong." The same friend recently point me to the Windows 7 free beta and gloat that open source was now doomed, because Microsoft was releasing their software for free.

I replied "Wow, a pre-release Microsoft operating system! I'm going to trust my data to it right away!" Then I laughed and laughed.

Tipped OuT
August 1st, 2009, 08:39 PM
"Why do windows users think you are supposed to use only windows?"

Because people are brainwashed into thinking that computers=windows. Let them believe what they want, it's their loss.

No, they're just not informed and/or don't care.

Dullstar
August 2nd, 2009, 02:53 AM
Yes. I have a friend who insists that Windows is perfect, and that all the security holes and user interface problems are a result of people "installing Windows wrong." The same friend recently point me to the Windows 7 free beta and gloat that open source was now doomed, because Microsoft was releasing their software for free.

I replied "Wow, a pre-release Microsoft operating system! I'm going to trust my data to it right away!" Then I laughed and laughed.

Wow.

Howard Kaikow
August 2nd, 2009, 06:04 PM
I'll give you MY reasons for NOT being able to move entirely to Linux from Windows. Linux is fine, but the apps are not there yet.

In the real world, folkes rely on applications written for Windows and those apps just are not there yet in Linux.

From the perspective of someone who relies on MSFT Office, and third party apps that hook into MSFT Office, I can tell you that Open Office has a ways to go before I can switch to Open Office from Windows, and I really do not know if some of the 3rd party apps that hook into MSFT Office have equivalents that hook into Open Office.

In particular, a bit over 2 years ago, I installed Ubuntu 7.04, and was disappointed to find certain issues with Open Office 2.3, e.g.:

1. I could not migrate a particular Excel workbook into Calc. Turned out that the implementors of Calc intentionally did not implement an obvious requirement. It was not a bug, it was intentional, or so I was told. You can find the details by searching for my name in the Open Office forum. As far as I know this problem still existed in version 3 of Open Office.

2. There was an effort to make Basic in Open Office more compatible with VBA in MSFT Office, however, Open Office was not there yet, and a few very importnat features are incompatible. The cost of reprogramming personal macros, add-ons, and 3rd party code would be huge. Again, as far as I know this issue etill existed in Open Office 3. Again, you can find my comments in the Open Office forum.

3. I was not able to find a PDF editing program, like Nitro PDF or Adobe Acrobat or Scansoft PDF professional, that would allow me to edit, say, IRS tax forms and save the editable PDF. At least things are moving in the right direction., but PDFEdit really needs a better GUI now.

MSFT Office is really what keeps users tied to Windows.

And the cost in re-training and software conversion keeps most businesses from taking the plunge,

If someone has never relied on MSFT Office, they might not miss the features in MSFT Office missing in Open Office, but they may miss out on 3rd party apps. I'm not familiar enough with Linux/Open Office to know whether any apps are lacking/missing.

lancest
August 2nd, 2009, 11:43 PM
Anyway I'm sure you are aware that you can run Windows software using Virtualbox or Wine in Ubuntu? No need to trust Windows as your engine OS.

I think Open Office is pretty flexible right now. Can work generally well with MS office formats. My prediction for the future is that issues will improve for document compatibility with three systems being prominently used- Apple, Widows and Linux.
For starters mobile devices running Linux stand a real chance of success. These will require improved abilities to work with MS file formats.

Chame_Wizard
August 2nd, 2009, 11:50 PM
Woah. Wish I could get that from my grandparents.

same here.

M$ use FUD about F/LOSS

Giant Speck
August 2nd, 2009, 11:58 PM
That is hilarious. How can she compile kernels at that age for her generation? Amazing!

That's kind of insulting to her generation, don't you think? Not all people over the age of 50 are technologically retarded.

lancest
August 2nd, 2009, 11:59 PM
Yes. I have a friend who insists that Windows is perfect, and that all the security holes and user interface problems are a result of people "installing Windows wrong."
I've had Windows professionals strongly arguing to me that the security problems are the result of "stupid people" who use the Windows OS wrongly. Windows Botnets have become a significant part of the Internet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botnet) now so I guess everyone's an idiot right?

Dullstar
August 3rd, 2009, 03:10 AM
Ugh, hate in when people claim Windows is secure.

Howard Kaikow
August 3rd, 2009, 01:10 PM
Ugh, hate in when people claim Windows is secure.

I hate it when anybody claims that ANY OS is secure.
Malware need not affect the OS.

I worry at least as much about my own files getting deleted/munged by some malware that got on my system, howsoever.

No OS is immune from that happening.

Heck a number of years ago, a Client sent me some malware.
He quicckly caught his error and warned me.

I had aleady detected the critter, but most users would not have been able to do so, and may have executed the file, feeling that it came from a safe known source. A rather unpleasnt surprise!

gordonh
August 3rd, 2009, 10:37 PM
Anyway I'm sure you are aware that you can run Windows software using Virtualbox or Wine in Ubuntu? No need to trust Windows as your engine OS.

I think Open Office is pretty flexible right now. Can work generally well with MS office formats. My prediction for the future is that issues will improve for document compatibility with three systems being prominently used- Apple, Widows and Linux.
For starters mobile devices running Linux stand a real chance of success. These will require improved abilities to work with MS file formats.

But where is the incentive to switch to Linux when you've still got to pay MS for Office?

I've spoken with many people in business and MS Office is the biggest show stopper to making any change.

Whether they understand OSes or not, they need to be certain that all the heritage documents will be readable. You and I know that not even MS can guarantee that, but to nearly guarantee it the best bet is to stick with MS.

wrtpeeps
August 3rd, 2009, 10:43 PM
Probably agree with this statement somewhat. However i seriously doubt most Windows pro's have much skill at Linux CLI, Bash, Python, Perl etc.
This makes them basically Microsoft only skilled professionals.

What a load of rubbish.

wsonar
August 3rd, 2009, 10:49 PM
It's surprising how many users don't even know they can use a different web browser their still stuck using IE because its already part of their computer

wsonar
August 3rd, 2009, 10:51 PM
The MCSE program breeds network admins that only know how to do things one way, and it's not cross platform.

Howard Kaikow
August 4th, 2009, 12:01 AM
But where is the incentive to switch to Linux when you've still got to pay MS for Office?

I've spoken with many people in business and MS Office is the biggest show stopper to making any change.

Whether they understand OSes or not, they need to be certain that all the heritage documents will be readable. You and I know that not even MS can guarantee that, but to nearly guarantee it the best bet is to stick with MS.

Yes. MSFT depends on MSFT Office.

It's more than just reading the documents.
Businesses, and individuals, have software, perhaps 3rd party, perhaps their own, that has to read/modify documents.

If one cannot import ALL the functionality into Calc, then it is likely just too expensive to convert

I hit upon the issues I found with the very first Excel workbook I tried to use.

There were some formulas that are not supported in OO, maybe one can live with that, I did not look at that closely.

But OO would not import the name space used by users in an obvious case, making, I expect lots of workbooks not migratable (is that a word?). And, if software relies on using those names, which would be common in the type of model used, well, one must contimue to use MSFT Office.

In the case of that workbook, it is NOT possible to migrate the app to Calc.

Excel allows one to use the same name on each sheet of a workbook. There is a very common need to do this. As of OO 3, Calc does not allow the same name to be used on more than one sheet of a workbook. This is a show stopper for many types of Excel apps. In my case, it was worse yet, as the program code required was dependent on those names being used on more than worksheet.

A crude example would be, say, each sheet represented an investment portfolio. Then on each sheet you needed to define names that were the ticker symbols for each security in the portfolio. Well, those must be the same on all worksheets modeling a portfolio.

Another example might be, say, a separate worksheet for each state or employee, or ... . In this case, there is a requirement to have common characteristics on all the wqorksheets. It only makes sense to use the same name for each characteristic on each sheet. There's no other natural way to model such things. In some cases, one might design a different model, not requiring the same names on each sheet, but that could be difficult, and has a high cost of conversion, especially if software uses those names.

I was told that Calc INTENTIONALLY disallowed such names. If you look at Calc, you will notice that it does have the necessary info to do the deed, it is just missing one more level of table lookup, I have no idea why.

lancest
August 4th, 2009, 12:17 AM
Business will consider other options because of cost and security considerations. These are becoming pretty big factors. Document compatibility is not the only important consideration these days.

Chame_Wizard
August 4th, 2009, 11:37 PM
Some of the largest companies are using F/LOSS,but due to patent claims,most are afraid to get a sue.:KS

Dullstar
August 11th, 2009, 07:57 PM
Right now I could care less about what OS wins as long as it isn't Windows.

Dullstar
August 11th, 2009, 07:58 PM
Unfortunately that's where it is right now. Though Ubuntu Linux and Mac OS X should be able to wear down that marketshare.

Dullstar
August 17th, 2009, 02:53 AM
Come on, this was an interesting discussion!

*bump*

ndefontenay
August 17th, 2009, 04:57 AM
Before my girlfriend started dating me, she had always used windows.

I had only Mac OSX and Linux at home so one day asking to go online she had to face the beast.

Later on she asked me to install Linux on her laptop. It was, I think, a mix of pleasing me and a genuine will of getting rid of windows because it was rather old on her laptop.

My parents whom I rarely meet because I live in Thailand for years now have problems with windows every month going through the circle described above of break, send to repair, come back clean, break again etc...

I can't wait to go there and install a linux box for them. The only reason so far is the internet. Their broadband uses a usb winmodem. As soon as they get on wifi windows is gone.

Nico

Howard Kaikow
August 17th, 2009, 07:35 AM
Come on, this was an interesting discussion!

*bump*

The OS does not mattter. It's the apps.

Moving FROM Windows TO Linux requires more compatibility with MSFT Office, both in functionality supported, and programming conversion. This is the biggie that prevents most folkes from moveing from Windows to Linux.

Other gaps include:

- Equivalent of Adobe Acrobat or Nitro PDF or SCansoft PDF Converter Professional or ..., I have not yet found such software that runs in linux, at least not via GUI.

- A GUI eqivalent of UDF software such as Nero's InCD or Roxio's Drag 2 Disc

Whilst some, maybe most, folkes might not need such compatibility, serious Windows users, including most business users just cannot give up their Windowsw apps, and cannot afford the cost of software conversion.

Instead of wasting resources debating this, resources should be put into removing the issues, say, starting with the issues above.

For example, there are 3 major GUI products, Brasero, GnomeBaker, and K3B. At least 1 of the project leaders for one of those projects indicated a willingness to pool resources to get the deed done. What is the process for starting/enouraging such a project?

lancest
August 17th, 2009, 07:55 AM
The OS does not mattter. It's the apps.

Generalization.
The OS does matter greatly in my opinion.
Suitable replacements for Windows software can often be found.

Companies can and do find ways around using proprietary software.

There is alot of inertia out there but Windows security problems and cost are forcing change.

Windows Gaps;
1. High cost
2. Poorly designed for security.
3. Just renting OS, nothing learned- no freedom.


[/QUOTE]

Dullstar
August 27th, 2009, 02:51 AM
Who cares what the OS can run? How about how well it runs what it runs?

aljoriz
August 27th, 2009, 07:30 AM
Windows users think of using only windows for ease of use. Let's face it some of them are using pirated windows with linux you go guilt free to computer heaven

TheNessus
August 27th, 2009, 07:36 AM
It's surprising how many users don't even know they can use a different web browser their still stuck using IE because its already part of their computer

Not to mention, being unaware of other media players besides Windows Media Player...

Luca_turicci
August 27th, 2009, 08:07 AM
Not to mention, being unaware of other media players besides Windows Media Player...


... or IM clients other than Windows Live Messenger, or Office software than MS Office, or antivirus other than McAffe or Norton...

Believe me, i've been giving support to users for a couple years, some of them know they have other options for their needs, but most of them don't even know what Windows is.

I think they stick to windows because they asume it's the only normal thing to run on a computer, or that it is the right thing to do, or it's just that, as they say "people are affraid of the unknown"

TheNosh
August 27th, 2009, 09:06 AM
to be fair, a lot of Ubuntu users don't try other software thats not installed by default.

other than the recent craze of cromium users just about everyone uses firefox, if people tried other software more we might see more people using Opera, arora, Epiphany, Galeon, Flock, or others

for Office there's Lotus Symphony, Gnome Office, but just about everyone uses Open Office.org

my point is, the majority of people, regardless of whether they use Windows or Linux, don't go far beyond the default software. you can say that thats just because the default software was made default because it's the best, and i suppose that's true to a degree, but it's also because these people don't really care what else there is if they have something that works. and frankly thats fine, if they're happy with firefox, why try other browsers? if they're happy with windows why try linux?

thinking that everyone is only supposed to use windows is ridiculous, but if someone thinks that all they want to use is windows, thats perfectly fine. my father uses windows, Internet Explorer, and windows media player. however he doesn't have any problem with it and rarely needs my help so he's sees no reason for any change, and as long as he can do everything he wants to with his computer i see no reason for his software to change either