interesting take on the "linux isn't ready for the desktop" argument

[donkyhotay]

This should probably go into recurring discussions but I thought the following blog post (http://penguinpetes.com/b2evo/index.php?title=seven_reasons_why_beef_is_not_read y_for_&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1) was a pretty interesting take on this very old and beaten to death argument.

[lisati]

Sums things up nicely!

[hanzomon4]

Cute

[jonian_g]

I'm tired of the argument that linux is not easy for the average Joe. For average Joe everything is difficult be it Linux, OSX or Windows.

A friend of mine, an average Joe, told me a week ago: My computer is broken. Can you reinstall windows for me because all photos on Facebook look crappy in firefox. It turned out that he had zoomed the page.

For average Joe the only easy OS would be one that he speaks to and does what he wants.

[philcamlin]

cool

[DownTown22]

Wow....that is probably the worst argument I have ever read in my life. Most of those points aren't even valid!

Cancel that...always good to read the whole thing first

[CharmyBee]

For average Joe the only easy OS would be one that he speaks to and does what he wants.

So, he wants Windows to double the killer, delete select all?

[jonian_g]

So, he wants Windows to double the killer, delete select all?

Sorry, I don't understand your question. (non native english speaker)

[andras artois]

Errrr, total garbage. If linux did come pre installed on computers it's most likely going to be Ubuntu, Fedora and OpenSUSE thats going to be installed. All of these work fine with MSN, iPods, youtube, etc. All the standard daily normal things you do. Admittedly you can't try and get girls to get their **** out on webcam but they can still send pictures.

What I'm trying to say is that linux coming presintalled and presetup is going to make a big difference. The lower spec computers are going to run better and they're going to be cheaper! You might not be able to do the specialist stuff (CAD, Photoshop, Final Cut). While you can get alternatives to these they're not as good, face it, they really aren't. The equivalents are good for basic stuff but anything involving industry and they're not. I don't mean to sound like such a downer but it's true. They just don't have the time to spare unless they have funding.

Also so far running dual boot with windows XP and Ubuntu on a pc designed for XP, everytime I boot into XP it crashes or something goes wrong in a having to restart kind of way whereas ubuntu I very VERY rarely have a problem with it. This is over a year probably more like 2 years.

Basically linux coming preinstalled will probably have fewer problems than windows as long as it's already setup and the user knows what to expect from programs.

I will be trying Windows 7 properly on my new badass computer thats coming tomorrow though...

[Dimitriid]

I'm tired of the argument that linux is not easy for the average Joe. For average Joe everything is difficult be it Linux, OSX or Windows.


If you buy a brand new car, no matter how sophisticated it might be, what would happen if you had 0 experience driving a car and you tried to drive out without asking for any instructions whatsoever? You'd die rather quickly.

Cause lives are involved you need to prove to the general population ( represented by local authorities ) that you are not an irresponsible person and have actually taken the time to not only learn how to operate a vehicle mechanically but you also have taken the time to learn all the regulations and concerns to others to be able to arrive to your destination without it being on the evening news.

I understand a lot more people now want to take advantage of the technologies we have available today, but I absolutely refuse to accommodate people who are unwilling to make any attempt whatsoever at having some basic understanding and want to use a computer as if it was any other home appliance like a dryer or a microwave oven.

Its a shame that Microsoft attempts to sell the idea that it can be that easy, it never is.

[jonian_g]

if you buy a brand new car, no matter how sophisticated it might be, what would happen if you had 0 experience driving a car and you tried to drive out without asking for any instructions whatsoever? You'd die rather quickly.

Cause lives are involved you need to prove to the general population ( represented by local authorities ) that you are not an irresponsible person and have actually taken the time to not only learn how to operate a vehicle mechanically but you also have taken the time to learn all the regulations and concerns to others to be able to arrive to your destination without it being on the evening news.

I understand a lot more people now want to take advantage of the technologies we have available today, but i absolutely refuse to accommodate people who are unwilling to make any attempt whatsoever at having some basic understanding and want to use a computer as if it was any other home appliance like a dryer or a microwave oven.

Its a shame that microsoft attempts to sell the idea that it can be that easy, it never is.

+100

[jonian_g]

You might not be able to do the specialist stuff (CAD, Photoshop, Final Cut). While you can get alternatives to these they're not as good, face it, they really aren't.

For CAD there is an equivalent that is as good as autoCAD and in some areas even better. MedusaCAD (commercial, multiplatform).

[lisati]

For average Joe everything is difficult be it Linux, OSX or Windows.
For the average Joe, even reading what's on the screen, let alone understanding it, seems to be difficult at times. I wonder how many people have noticed that common software, such as Firefox, comes with instructions in the form of a "help" menu item!

[andras artois]

For CAD there is an equivalent that is as good as autoCAD and in some areas even better. MedusaCAD (commercial, multiplatform).

My bad. Didn't know about it but there's alot of people that swear by Solidworks. Most of the people I know who work with CAD prefer Solidworks to Autocad because it's better at making parts rather than things if you get what I mean.

I think linux is ready for the desktop as long as it comes pre installed and pre setup by someone who knows what they're doing.

[SoftwareExplorer]

Sorry, I don't understand your question. (non native english speaker)

Thing is, it's not even real English. It's computer-horrible-grammar pseudo English. It's from a youtube video. A person was demoing MS Vista's Voice Recognition, and it didn't work.

[Dimitriid]

My bad. Didn't know about it but there's alot of people that swear by Solidworks. Most of the people I know who work with CAD prefer Solidworks to Autocad because it's better at making parts rather than things if you get what I mean.

I think linux is ready for the desktop as long as it comes pre installed and pre setup by someone who knows what they're doing.


I would argue that you are not truly exploring ALL the options available when it comes to Linux. Dual boot and virtualization are viable options for most users, and those are options that should be good to accommodate less-than-ideal transitions: I, for one, do not want to have all windows users forced into Linux with an avalanche of questions and complains. The transition should be progressive, as more people migrates ideally more support for speciality applications should follow.

[tsali]

If you buy a brand new car, no matter how sophisticated it might be, what would happen if you had 0 experience driving a car and you tried to drive out without asking for any instructions whatsoever? You'd die rather quickly.

Cause lives are involved you need to prove to the general population ( represented by local authorities ) that you are not an irresponsible person and have actually taken the time to not only learn how to operate a vehicle mechanically but you also have taken the time to learn all the regulations and concerns to others to be able to arrive to your destination without it being on the evening news.

I understand a lot more people now want to take advantage of the technologies we have available today, but I absolutely refuse to accommodate people who are unwilling to make any attempt whatsoever at having some basic understanding and want to use a computer as if it was any other home appliance like a dryer or a microwave oven.

Its a shame that Microsoft attempts to sell the idea that it can be that easy, it never is.

-100

I'll never understand people who don't think that TOOLS like a computer should be made as simple to use as possible. That's exactly what's happened with cars...they are are easier (and safer) to operate than ever before and newer cars even have active features like self-braking and lane control. Eventually, we'll be able to get in and tell it where we want to go.

What's wrong with this? Why shouldn't we expect the same kind of service from our computers?

As far as the blog post goes...it's just dumb. Most people aren't looking for "flavor and taste" in their operating system. They aren't enthusiasts and don't care that they can rewrite code if they want to.

Variety and adventure are the stuff of cuisine and travel...not consumer computing.

[Sarai the Geek]

This is adorable, but I think the metaphor ought to go the other way. Beef is disgusting: It's fatty (read: bloated), expensive, and tastes pretty much the same no matter how you cook it. Chicken, on the other hand, is lean, inexpensive, and depending on how you flavor it can taste like almost anything you want.
Trying to extend the metaphor to vegetarian options is making my head hurt, though...
:popcorn:

[Dimitriid]

-100

I'll never understand people who don't think that TOOLS like a computer should be made as simple to use as possible.

Because you basically push the other side to relinquish all control and tons of functionality to please people who cannot be bothered. You remind me of Wall-E when you basically say we should live in a world where 0 effort is needed and everything is done for you in advance, when you basically give up your individuality cause you cannot be bothered to make any choice yourself cause you didn't want to invest 1 hour to learn how to use a computer or read painfully simple instructions.

[Polaris96]

Jonian_g: WELL SAID, SIR.

in the next rant, i'm just guessing about dates. I was alive but was only a tot bumbling around in the engineering dept of the defense contractor where my ma worked as a secretary. you hear things...

People have been sold on, "Computers should be easy." This is because of the early '80s when computers were hard and the slickest thing on the block was a BSD terminal.

some screwballs in palo alto were working on this guufy thing called smalltalk that would NEVER take off because who wanted a damned PC in their living room? And then it did.

So, Starting about 1986'ish, everyone's screaming about how "easy" PCs are. They weren't. Jobs and wozniak tried their best and made great gains, but PCs still sucked for the average joe.

In 1989 or so Win 3.1 comes along and things really DID get easy. ...Until you wanted sound ...or video ...or for what you looked at on the CRT to match what came out of the printer. (ooooo WYSIWYG!! Kool)

95 would fix it - didn't
98 uh-uh because now we wanted networking, too.
NT MAYBE but it was way too good for anything but servers. Bill, at least, though so.

2000, Me ... not even GOING THERE

NT gets a facelift and finally comes out as XP. For an extra $100 you can have the "professional" edition and get reasonable functionality ... oh wait! it's too good, so we'll tone it down (everybody loaded their SP2? hmmmm?)

Vista I LOVE because it's a slow OS PLUS advertising!

so, I ask you all, WHEN have PCs EVER been easy? Apps crash - they always did. Hardware crashes - so much for the world of plug'n'play.

At least, our way, we only have to invest time. I like it. this way.

[jonian_g]

-100

I'll never understand people who don't think that TOOLS like a computer should be made as simple to use as possible. That's exactly what's happened with cars...they are are easier (and safer) to operate than ever before and newer cars even have active features like self-braking and lane control. Eventually, we'll be able to get in and tell it where we want to go.

What's wrong with this? Why shouldn't we expect the same kind of service from our computers?

As far as the blog post goes...it's just dumb. Most people aren't looking for "flavor and taste" in their operating system. They aren't enthusiasts and don't care that they can rewrite code if they want to.

Variety and adventure are the stuff of cuisine and travel...not consumer computing.

That doesn't mean that you don't have to learn how to use a computer. Even if you buy a washing machine you have to read the manual to use it, if you've never used one before. So why computers have to be idiot proof?

[jonian_g]

at least, our way, we only have to invest time. I like it. This way.

+1

[CharmyBee]

In 1989 or so Win 3.1 comes along and things really DID get easy. ...Until you wanted sound ...or video ...or for what you looked at on the CRT to match what came out of the printer. (ooooo WYSIWYG!! Kool)

95 would fix it - didn't
98 uh-uh because now we wanted networking, too.
NT MAYBE but it was way too good for anything but servers. Bill, at least, though so.

2000, Me ... not even GOING THERE

Windows was at 2.x by 1989, 3.0 soon came in 1990 and revamped the UI greatly but media functions were quite minimal. 3.1 came in 1991, 3.11 in 1992. Windows for Workgroups had IPX networking with NetBIOS support even. Windows 95 had DirectX launched months after itself which resolved a lot of potential driver conflicts with multimedia functions (and it was absolutely necessary given the huge number of video/sound card vendors back then compared to now. There was no 'standard onboard' video or audio, and not even the Microsoft Sound System (CS42XX cards) solved issues). Win98 mainly tried to 'revolutionize' in offering plug & play support and USB support (to which led to the infamous BSOD in a well-known mishap of a 98 demonstration).
NT had horrible latency when dealing with sound. It's sort of like Ubuntu is at now with PulseAudio.

Don't you ever confuse Windows 2000 with Windows ME.

While Windows was a 'top PC os' for a while it didn't really explode into Windows-exclusivity periods until July 1995's Windows 95 launch. Why can't we get a concert launch? :(

[andras artois]

3.1 had the most badass games ever.

[CharmyBee]

3.1 had the most badass games ever.

Not quite: The best selling Win 3.1 game was Myst. The good games were still on DOS, where you could also play them without Windows (like OS/2)

[lisati]

-100

I'll never understand people who don't think that TOOLS like a computer should be made as simple to use as possible. That's exactly what's happened with cars...they are are easier (and safer) to operate than ever before and newer cars even have active features like self-braking and lane control. Eventually, we'll be able to get in and tell it where we want to go.

<snip>
It's nice that cars have more safety features than they used to, but that shouldn't be an excuse for what's really bad driving. There's one commercial I've seen recently promoting the stability control in some car (the make and model is irrelevant): have the gadget switched on and the car handles well, have it switched off and you risk having a truck collide with you. The way they illustrate the difference is what would be called back in the day "failure to adjust your driving to the conditions". In other words, "bad driving".

[deltadave]

In response to the "beef/chicken" debate I agree with the the National Cattlemen's Beef Association (in America): "Beef. It's what's for dinner." [One dumb response deserves another.] :D

For a lot of people the easiest OS is simply the one they are used to using. When I made the switch to Ubuntu a couple of years ago it was hard because I didn't know where anything was located and it was just "different". My entire household, which includes three kids, now use it everyday on all the computers and it has become easy for us all.

Most people are just conditioned to use windows so anything else is going to be considered "hard to use". I think much of the problem is because many of us are too lazy to put forth a little effort to learn something new. For many people you could give them any OS and it wouldn't matter to them as long as it has a web browser and email client. Now there's an idea. Create a computer that only has a browser, email, and simple photo resizing program.

[tsali]

Because you basically push the other side to relinquish all control and tons of functionality to please people who cannot be bothered. You remind me of Wall-E when you basically say we should live in a world where 0 effort is needed and everything is done for you in advance, when you basically give up your individuality cause you cannot be bothered to make any choice yourself cause you didn't want to invest 1 hour to learn how to use a computer or read painfully simple instructions.

I didn't say anything of the sort. I said that the TOOLS we use to do the things that are really important shouldn't make us jump though hoops to use them.

If I want to write a short story, I want to focus on my story...not operating my word processor. If I balance my bank accounts, I don't want to struggle with OFX issues...

Please explain how wanting high functioning tool is giving up my individuality?

How much of your individuality have you sacrificed since I'm sure you aren't writing and compiling all of your software in assembly language?

Where do you draw that line? One could insist that only pantywaists run someone else's binary code...

[tsali]

That doesn't mean that you don't have to learn how to use a computer. Even if you buy a washing machine you have to read the manual to use it, if you've never used one before. So why computers have to be idiot proof?

If you have to read a manual to use an appliance, that means there is room for improvement.

There could be myriad reasons why you have to read that manual. Perhaps the technology isn't available. Perhaps it is available but it would cost too much to implement.

In any case, washing machines are far more automatic today than they were 50 years ago.

I suppose that's a bad thing? Please explain...

[-grubby]

He can replace "Linux" with "beef" and suddenly it's clever/witty/interesting?

[jonian_g]

If you have to read a manual to use an appliance, that means there is room for improvement.

There could be myriad reasons why you have to read that manual. Perhaps the technology isn't available. Perhaps it is available but it would cost too much to implement.

In any case, washing machines are far more automatic today than they were 50 years ago.

I suppose that's a bad thing? Please explain...

You're wrong. Washing machines are more complicated than they were because they can do more things nowadays (different programs for different clothes, water consuming program, power consuming etc.)

But you didn't got my point. When you use something that you never used before, you have, first, to learn how to use it.

As human beings evolved they started to do more complicated things. Making everything as easier as it gets is like stoping that evolution or even going backwards. Take as example what has happened to the languages we speak. In the begining humans comunicated with each other making sounds. Then their brains evolved and they started to use words for comunicating. Nowadays there are some "sounds" that are being used as words (lol, wtf, tbh, tnx etc.) and this is going to continue. Of course they are used in the name of ease of use and speed but it doesn't show that the evolution in speech is continuing the way it should.

[tsali]

You're wrong. Washing machines are more complicated than they were because they can do more things nowadays (different programs for different clothes, water consuming program, power consuming etc.)

But you didn't got my point. When you use something that you never used before, you have, first, to learn how to use it.

As human beings evolved they started to do more complicated things. Making everything as easier as it gets is like stoping that evolution or even going backwards. Take as example what has happened to the languages we speak. In the begining humans comunicated with each other making sounds. Then their brains evolved and they started to use words for comunicating. Nowadays there are some "sounds" that are being used as words (lol, wtf, tbh, tnx etc.) and this is going to continue. Of course they are used in the name of ease of use and speed but it doesn't show that the evolution in speech is continuing the way it should.

I am apparently not getting your point. To do a load of laundry in my new front loader, simply put in clothes, select temperature, add detergent and press "wash".

My grandmothers old whirlpool didn't even have a timer or spin cycle so you had to REMEMBER when to add water, detergent and stop the machine, then wring out the clothes using the wringer press.

I don't see how that's simpler.

I think you are missing MY point...automation makes accomplishing complex tasks simpler. Automation may also let you do things you just couldn't do before (think about the wash timer)

Automation makes technology accessible to more folks who want to direct their energies in directions that don't necessarily involve that technology.

[JordyD]

He can replace "Linux" with "beef" and suddenly it's clever/witty/interesting?

He's clever/witty/interesting because he thought of it. He's also clever/witty/interesting because the article makes sense when you replace "Linux" with "beef" and he was the first to realize it.

[aysiu]

This is not so clever. Sorry.

I thought of it over three years ago:
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=120489

[tsali]

This is not so clever. Sorry.

I thought of it over three years ago:
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=120489

That was a good post...clever

However...to cary that analogy to its logical conclusion -

If I find myself in an environment where eating chicken and speaking English are what it takes to get the results I need...then I eat chicken and speak English.

Since eating chicken and speaking English gets the job done, then there really is no logical reason to insist on eating beef and speaking Chinese.

That said, if I found myself in a situation where I needed to eat beef and speak Chinese, I'd like nothing more than for someone to invent a way for me to use these skills as quickly and as easily possible.

The rosetta stone of computing?