I think it's impossible to NOT use Windows.

[Shibblet]

Microsoft has truly created a Monopoly. Windows IS a Monopoly on the computer industry. There is nothing that can be done to get away from it.

From internal hardware, peripheral devices, software, etc. There is no way to stay away from Windows.

If you tried, and I mean tried your hardest to only use Ubuntu (Linux) undoubtedly you will, at some point, have a Windows app to run that Wine can't do.

As a graphic designer, I have used Mac's in the past, but the general public always uses Windows, and brings in files made in Publisher, Word, Corel Draw, etc. Not to mention my Roland SC-540II only has Windows based RIP program and drivers.

At work I use Adobe Creative Suite 4, and Wine just CAN'T do it.

Now, this isn't a thread designed to bash Ubuntu (Linux), we all know the performance difference is DRAMATICALLY better in Ubuntu (Linux).

This is a thread asking what can be done to TRULY create an operating system that the entire industry can use (and utilize), and one that would be formidable toward OSX and Windows in the current market.

Competition brings out the best in any product... maybe that's why Windows has so many issues.

[gn2]

If you tried, and I mean tried your hardest to only use Ubuntu (Linux) undoubtedly you will, at some point, have a Windows app to run that Wine can't do.

This might be a shock, but there are plenty people who get by from one year to the next without ever needing to use Windows.
One of them is me.

[Shibblet]

This might be a shock, but there are plenty people who get by from one year to the next without ever needing to use Windows.
One of them is me.

How?

[DeadSuperHero]

I haven't used Windows in like four years. Granted, I don't have a mobile device or iPod or anything like that, but I see absolutely no point in having it.

The only one thing I want to truly complete Linux for me is to have Audacity be fixed to work with PulseAudio completely. Then I'll be able to get back into audio production and music recording on Linux. Everything else I need is covered, though.

[Anzan]

I have never found any reason to use Wine let alone Windows.

(For graphic design, word processing, layout and on and on.)

[jbruced]

Keep on pluggin'.

They're (Ubuntu etc.)doing a fantastic job at pushing along. Slow and steady.

They got into netbooks, MS kicked their as*, yet they don't give up.
They persue servers, small arm architecture, old PCs, new PCs, wubi, live CD, dual boot. Ubuntu is definately doing thier job to penetrate wherever they can.

M$ is so entrenched, I don't know if I'll get to see them overtaken in my lifetime, but I don't use them anymore at all on my PC. I do reserve the right to go back if I need something I can't find anywhere else, I just hope it never comes to that.

What I got works fantastic, no complaints here.

[gn2]

How?

By using Linux.

[fatality_uk]

You already posted a topic about this and shown there is a thread the about people using Ubuntu/Linux day to day.

For the record, I am using Ubuntu a good two years day to day real world use here!

If you really don't feel like stepping out of your comfort zone, then please stay with Windows. If it works for you, then why change? It's like going to a car showroom and asking for an identical car to one you already have, but with better tyres.

[gnomeuser]

I haven't used Windows for over a decade. I can do every task I need and interoperate with other platforms just fine.

It's not impossible, at least not for the majority of tasks. However once you reach the long tail, there are a lot of specialized tasks where software only exists for a certain platform and there is not enough interest or money to be made in creating a Free Software equaliant.

[Shibblet]

If you really don't feel like stepping out of your comfort zone, then please stay with Windows. If it works for you, then why change? It's like going to a car showroom and asking for an identical car to one you already have, but with better tyres.

I don't know if you read this part...

Now, this isn't a thread designed to bash Ubuntu (Linux), we all know the performance difference is DRAMATICALLY better in Ubuntu (Linux).

This is a thread asking what can be done to TRULY create an operating system that the entire industry can use (and utilize), and one that would be formidable toward OSX and Windows in the current market.

Personally, I'd like commercial software companies to support Ubuntu (Linux). Then the Operating System war would be ON! ;)

Think about it! If major software companies, like Adobe, or EA released their titles for Linux, it'd be a different ball game. And I truly don't know why they don't. EA releases the same games for Wii, PS3, XBox, and Windows.

[cmay]

Microsoft has truly created a Monopoly. Windows IS a Monopoly on the computer industry. There is nothing that can be done to get away from it.

From internal hardware, peripheral devices, software, etc. There is no way to stay away from Windows.

If you tried, and I mean tried your hardest to only use Ubuntu (Linux) undoubtedly you will, at some point, have a Windows app to run that Wine can't do.

As a graphic designer, I have used Mac's in the past, but the general public always uses Windows, and brings in files made in Publisher, Word, Corel Draw, etc. Not to mention my Roland SC-540II only has Windows based RIP program and drivers.

At work I use Adobe Creative Suite 4, and Wine just CAN'T do it.

Now, this isn't a thread designed to bash Ubuntu (Linux), we all know the performance difference is DRAMATICALLY better in Ubuntu (Linux).

This is a thread asking what can be done to TRULY create an operating system that the entire industry can use (and utilize), and one that would be formidable toward OSX and Windows in the current market.

Competition brings out the best in any product... maybe that's why Windows has so many issues.

i did not use windows once since etch was released. i dappled in a computer with xp on it while i had debian sarge but it was to write a program for a birthday gift. ( brother got a textedtior made in wxdev for birthday)

it is not only possible to stay away from windows and mac. but its hard to use open-solaris or minix and not use linux or bsd. there is not so may packages for those two platforms.

i have six older computers running linux now each of them with their own purpose.
one is for audiop recording. one is media center . one is for programming and one is office and one is just for google and playing around with.

i also use open solaris and debian and ubuntu one them. i have a minix installation too. linux has more programs than i will ever need for my computing and sound studio.

[gn2]

Then the Operating System war would be ON!

There's no need to go to war.
Peaceful co-existence is much better.

[jflaker]

Microsoft has truly created a Monopoly. Windows IS a Monopoly on the computer industry. There is nothing that can be done to get away from it.
But only for those who refuse to try something else. There are alternatives.

From internal hardware, peripheral devices, software, etc. There is no way to stay away from Windows.
Try loading windows from scratch, not the OEM restore disk, but a true windows install disk.....then go into the hardware and take a look at everything that DOESN'T have a driver and is therefore not operational..

If you tried, and I mean tried your hardest to only use Ubuntu (Linux) undoubtedly you will, at some point, have a Windows app to run that Wine can't do.
Sure, I will not use it. I have one application, IBM Client Access, which has a Linux version, but only an RPM, not a DEB package...I run this package on a VirtualBox installation of Windowsl....and that is only because I need it for work, not for myself.

As a graphic designer, I have used Mac's in the past, but the general public always uses Windows, and brings in files made in Publisher, Word, Corel Draw, etc. Not to mention my Roland SC-540II only has Windows based RIP program and drivers.
Adobe is starting to see the Linux light...watch for more products from Adobe in the near future....otherwise, there are alternatives.

At work I use Adobe Creative Suite 4, and Wine just CAN'T do it.
Adobe has some linux versions...watch for more in the near future.

Now, this isn't a thread designed to bash Ubuntu (Linux), we all know the performance difference is DRAMATICALLY better in Ubuntu (Linux).
very true -- No BLOAT

This is a thread asking what can be done to TRULY create an operating system that the entire industry can use (and utilize), and one that would be formidable toward OSX and Windows in the current market.
From what I understand, Yahoo and Google do NOT use windows....Their infrastructure is built around Linux

Competition brings out the best in any product... maybe that's why Windows has so many issues.
Windows has so many issues because there is only ONE entity looking at their applications and their products. Open Source Software allows MILLIONS of people to contribute, whether in code, documentation or advertising and many other areas....Windows has security issues because microsoft refuses to let others look at their code....one entity can only see so much, it takes many eyes to find and fix big issues quickly.

[Shibblet]

Just something I noticed...

Are any of you from the United States? Maybe this Windows thing is more popular in the United States.

[fatality_uk]

I don't know if you read this part...

I read all of your post.

Microsoft has truly created a Monopoly. Windows IS a Monopoly on the computer industry. There is nothing that can be done to get away from it.

Well that's just not true. I moved totally away from Windows years ago. Many, many people in this forum have done the very same thing.

If you start your argument from a flawed premise, then there's no where else to go but in the wrong direction.

You CAN move away from Windows, you just have to want to.

[fatality_uk]

Just something I noticed...

Are any of you from the United States? Maybe this Windows thing is more popular in the United States.

Yeah, I heard that. As soon as we in Europe got electricity in about 1997 and the internet-thing last year, we have been catching up on the Windows thing. I mean for me, Windows 3.1 in just such a revelation :) Woah what a sexy desktop. :D :D

[Shibblet]

If you start your argument from a flawed premise, then there's no where else to go but in the wrong direction.

You CAN move away from Windows, you just have to want to.

On a personal computer people can be more opt to try alternative software, but in the commercial industry it's a different story.

[Delever]

Yeah, I heard that. As soon as we in Europe got electricity in about 1997 and the internet-thing last year, we have been catching up on the Windows thing. I mean for me, Windows 3.1 in just such a revelation :) Woah what a sexy desktop. :D :D

Wow, you are so far ahead... Maybe I should migrate to UK...

[Shibblet]

Yeah, I heard that. As soon as we in Europe got electricity in about 1997 and the internet-thing last year, we have been catching up on the Windows thing. I mean for me, Windows 3.1 in just such a revelation :) Woah what a sexy desktop. :D :D

I was just wondering if Windows was used less in a European or Asian market. I understand Amiga computers are still used in Europe. We haven't seen them in America for years.

[cmay]

If you tried, and I mean tried your hardest to only use Ubuntu (Linux) undoubtedly you will, at some point, have a Windows app to run that Wine can't do.
i reread your post.
if now you write i instead you then its maybe true. but i have as said before used since etch was released linux only . and that means no wine and no virtual box. just linux.

then later on i started to see how many free alternatives there really is to windows so i have been using open solaris minix freebsd and lots of different linux distributions until i found that for my needs linux will do wiht debian and ubuntu . for the things i want to learn more about i use open solaris. its not mature but its stable and i been wiht that for some time now.
minix i have for the sake of reading the book so its only useful for study.

i could move away from windows and i cant even remember how its looks like. i dont care about windows and who uses it and who dont and why. as long as i can make sure i dont have to use it i am happy.
i did not see a windows computer in about two years now i think. so in my world you can get away from windows and never look back as easy as it is installing ubuntu

[fatality_uk]

I was just wondering if Windows was used less in a European or Asian market. I understand Amiga computers are still used in Europe. We haven't seen them in America for years.

:lol:
Nice!!!
:lol:

[gn2]

On a personal computer people can be more opt to try alternative software, but in the commercial industry it's a different story.

Have you ever herd of a company called Pixar?

Every film they have ever made was not made on computers running Windows.

And they're not alone (http://www.linuxmovies.org/).

[burvowski]

I have not touched or used Windows, nor one of its apps, in three years. The OP is wrong.

[Shibblet]

Have you ever herd of a company called Pixar?

Every film they have ever made was not made on computers running Windows.

From a company owned by Steve Jobs? Imagine that...

But you're right, they use Macs for making the movies. So does ILM.

:lol:
Nice!!!
:lol:

You want to play the sarcasm game, we can... Seems as if you're well equipped for it. You threw out the "electricity in 1997" quit, I toss the "Amiga" back-atcha.

Seriously though. Commercially, how can you get away from it?

[unknownPoster]

Seriously though. Commercially, how can you get away from it?

Fairly easily, in my experience...

[albinootje]

Now, this isn't a thread designed to bash Ubuntu (Linux), we all know the performance difference is DRAMATICALLY better in Ubuntu (Linux).

I wish this was true, but it is very often not true.

Take for example the performance of Firefox in Linux, even Firefox in Wine in Linux performs better than that.

I prefer Linux anytime over MS-Windows, but when I talk to people about Linux I prefer to talk about freedom and better security than talk about performance.


This is a thread asking what can be done to TRULY create an operating system that the entire industry can use (and utilize), and one that would be formidable toward OSX and Windows in the current market.

I think the problem is ... Microsoft itself.

Look at the recent netbook-issue. Microsoft has silently managed (with help from some ignorant netbook suppliers like MSI) to vanish Linux from most of the current (recent) intel based netbooks, probably at the expense of price-reduced installations of the "obsolete" MS Windows XP.
While that might be a sad thing for now, it shows that the monopolist is in a cramped posture right now, almost about to collapse.

Let's focus on companies which offer Linux (properly) pre-installed on computers, like Dell, System76, Zareason and others, and spread the information about that.

And let's focus on helping to improve Linux and other open source software.
That could be for example :
- testing software on certain hardware
- admitting information to databases like this :
http://kmuto.jp/debian/hcl/
- doing translations for software
- helping people out at a forum like here
- join linux install parties
- donate to open source projects

[burvowski]

From a company owned by Steve Jobs? Imagine that...

But you're right, they use Macs for making the movies. So does ILM.


If they don't make their movies on Windows, then they don't make their movies on Windows. You said it is impossible to avoid using Windows in a commercial setting, someone pointed out multiple situations where Windows is not used in a commercial setting. :lolflag:

[fatality_uk]

You want to play the sarcasm game, we can... Seems as if you're well equipped for it. You threw out the "electricity in 1997" quit, I toss the "Amiga" back-atcha.

I don't think you're well enough equipped to play ;) *just kidding*

Seriously though. Commercially, how can you get away from it?

Well, do a feasibility study. If that finds that Linux can work in a commercial environment, go ahead install it and get good support. Simple really.

[Shibblet]

And let's focus on helping to improve Linux and other open source software.
That could be for example :
- testing software on certain hardware
- admitting information to databases like this :
http://kmuto.jp/debian/hcl/
- doing translations for software
- helping people out at a forum like here
- join linux install parties
- donate to open source projects

Thanks for a constructive response. The LiveCD, Wubi, and Dual-Booting ability of Ubuntu definitely help get people to try it. And for the home user, finding alternatives is great.

But open source means for everybody, even Windows users... Once again, we're back to a stale-mate.

[gn2]

From a company owned by Steve Jobs? Imagine that...

But you're right, they use Macs for making the movies.

Actually they do not use Macs now, they switched to supercomputers running Linux years ago.

http://www.macobserver.com/tmo/article/Pixar_Big_on_Linux_Clusters_-_Mac_Not_so_Much_/

http://www.macuser.co.uk/news/38313/pixar-picks-linux.html

http://www.linux-watch.com/news/NS6281055297.html

http://www.architosh.com/news/2002-01/2002c-0130-linuxpixar.phtml

[Shibblet]

Actually they do not use Macs now, they switched to supercomputers running Linux years ago.

RenderMan runs on Linux, but I doubt they are making models with Milkshape. ;)
I am curious what they use for modeling.

But one thing I am certain of, is somewhere at Pixar, there is a computer with Windows on it. ;)

Don't get me wrong. If the whole world decided to drop Windows and embrace Ubuntu (Linux), I'd be dancing in the streets!

You're right though. People have to want to make the change. But people are stubborn. How can you help them "see the light" ?

[albinootje]

But open source means for everybody, even Windows users... Once again, we're back to a stale-mate.

I think the real cashcow for Microsoft is not Microsoft Windows, but it is products like MS-Office, MS-Exchange, and some more business oriented software.

And personally I don't mind at all that MS-Windows users would switch massively to open source products like Firefox, OpenOffice, vlc, thunderbird etc.

It only makes the future jump to Linux easier :)

[fatality_uk]

Linux can be used anywhere, I mean this one time, this guy compiled a kernel of Linux that ran on his wrist watch!!

[Shibblet]

I think the real cashcow for Microsoft is not Microsoft Windows, but it is products like MS-Office, MS-Exchange, and some more business oriented software.

True, but the cash-cow (MS-Office) requires the that you own the barn (Windows).

And personally I don't mind at all that MS-Windows users would switch massively to open source products like Firefox, OpenOffice, vlc, thunderbird etc.

It only makes the future jump to Linux easier :)

That'd be great. I think one of the best things about open source projects is compatibility. Open Office for Windows is COMPLETELY compatible with Open Office Linux.

Look what IE8 is trying to do with CSS extensions. You HAVE to use IE8 in order to utilize them. It's typical of Microsoft to pull that kind of crap.

[Shibblet]

Linus can be used anywhere, I mean this one time, this guy compiled a kernel of Linux that ran on his wrist watch!!

That's sweet. One thing I've been wondering though... why is it all of these companies like HP, Intel, Pixar, Linksys, etc. can use Linux, but never contribute to open source GNU?

Is Google the only one giving back to the community?

[Delever]

That's sweet. One thing I've been wondering though... why is it all of these companies like HP, Intel, Pixar, Linksys, etc. can use Linux, but never contribute to open source GNU?

Because they do what THEY want...

[nothingspecial]

I really can`t understand why anyone really cares.

I had widows for about a week once when I bought a new laptop. Couldn`t be bothered to figure out how to use it though so I installed Ubuntu.

Oh, and occasionally I get to press a few buttons on a pc at work but I don`t have to if I don`t want to.

And I once went round to my dad`s to fix his wife`s computer and then I looked at it and realised that I didn`t know how.

Having said that, I really must try windows one day.

[HappyFeet]

I have one application, IBM Client Access, which has a Linux version, but only an RPM, not a DEB package...

Have you not heard of alien? It will change the RPM to a DEB file. ):P

[chucky chuckaluck]

depends on what you're using it for, i guess. most end users could die in their sleep without ever knowing which OS it was they were using.

[speedwell68]

All of my computers run Linux. I do use windows at work, but only because my employer forces me to, but the are looking at using open source where possible. But there is nothing I use a computer for at work that I couldn't do in Linux. In fact most of the time I take my own laptop to work and use that. I do use XP in VB from time to time for my Sony Minidisc Player, but I have recently bought an iPod so I doubt I will be using it much more as the iPod has all but replaced my Minidisc.

I design websites in Linux, I design flyers and other publications in Linux, to a professional standard. In fact I have earned thousands of £££ using Linux. I have been MS free for 3 years and will never be going back. Also every member of my family also uses Linux and are never going back.

[swoll1980]

I know what the op is talking about. It's not imposable, but inconvenient. There's always some reason I can't completely dump Windows. I can't even use Ubuntu most of the time now, because I'm using the magicjack as my only phone, and it doesn't support Linux yet.

[cmay]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picotux
here is a hit from the search terms embedded systems.

i wonder if it is possible to ONLY use windows.
and if it is then is it worth it ?

[LookTJ]

Ernie Ball uses Linux as far as I know.

[gn2]

But one thing I am certain of, is somewhere at Pixar, there is a computer with Windows on it.

There may well be, but whether it needs to have Windows on it is a different issue.

[MaxIBoy]

I have two machines that Windows (or at least, anything newer than Windows 98) will not run on. Both of these machines are running modern operating systems, complete with the latest technology, with modern updates and no unpatched security holes. This is a situation wherein it is impossible to legally use Windows, even if you tried.

I have not used Windows for the past two years. I have not run anything with WINE for about six months-- I have it installed and everything, but I really haven't found many uses for it.

EDIT: Yeah, I'm a gamer too. Id software for the win!

[Shibblet]

I know what the op is talking about. It's not imposable, but inconvenient. There's always some reason I can't completely dump Windows.

Nobody wants to be inconvenienced. So we dual boot. :)

There may well be, but whether it needs to have Windows on it is a different issue.

And the "need" is subject to debate. Does the computer "need" Windows on it? No. Someone "wants" it on there though. Because it would be inconvenient to not have it.

I have not used Windows for the past two years. I have not run anything with WINE for about six months-- I have it installed and everything, but I really haven't found many uses for it.

WoW is the largest online game Worldwide, I'm sure I will get no arguments there... And is Windows based. You "can" get it to work with Wine, but not full performance. How could an online gamer (which is the gaming wave of the future) be tempted to switch? I think they finally made an OSX version of it, but that's not a Linux port.

And completely off subject, gn2? What the heck is your avatar a picture of? I can only guess some kind of mushroom.

[MaxIBoy]

And the "need" is subject to debate. Does the computer "need" Windows on it? No. Someone "wants" it on there though.

And completely off subject? What the heck is your avatar a picture of? I can only guess some kind of mushroom.
I assumed it was an elephant's trunk or a manitee in a swimming pool.

[aysiu]

If you tried, and I mean tried your hardest to only use Ubuntu (Linux) undoubtedly you will, at some point, have a Windows app to run that Wine can't do. I don't have to try hard at all, and I use only Ubuntu. No Windows apps at all.

I use Firefox, Thunderbird, FIleZilla, GIMP, TagTool, Rhythmbox, F-Spot, and a whole bunch of open source applications. I have a Sandisk player instead of an iPod. I bought my computer with Ubuntu preinstalled.

Don't need Windows. Sorry.

Are there are a lot of people who use Windows-only applications? Sure. Is it impossible to get away from Windows. Hardly. You just have to assess your needs and adjust your lifestyle slowly. Seeing as how you need Adobe Creative Suite, you (meaning the literal you and not the general you) will find it impossible to get away from Windows until Adobe make a Linux version.

Except, of course, if you use Mac OS X. My wife is a graphic designer, and that's what she does. No Windows on her computer, I assure you.

[jsmidt]

Shibblet, I see you are from Wasilla, Alaska, do you know Sarah Palin?

Second, I have used nothing but linux since 2005 and have done just fine. In fact, I find life is easier and more productive having stuck to Linux.

[Shibblet]

I assumed it was an elephant's trunk or a manitee in a swimming pool.

If I had a manatee in a swimming pool, would you come over and help me feed it? :p
You lost me on that reference.

Are there are a lot of people who use Windows-only applications? Sure. Is it impossible to get away from Windows. Hardly. You just have to assess your needs and adjust your lifestyle slowly. Seeing as how you need Adobe Creative Suite, you (meaning the literal you and not the general you) will find it impossible to get away from Windows until Adobe make a Linux version.

Except, of course, if you use Mac OS X. My wife is a graphic designer, and that's what she does. No Windows on her computer, I assure you.

LOL, the literal "me" does find it impossible to get away from Windows software as a majority of software is made for it.

Do I choose not to buy the iPod because it isn't supported in Linux? That choice in itself is limiting. ATI drivers are less supported in Linux (I prefer Nvidia of course) but once again, that is a limited choice due to an Operating System.

Adobe Software is available on Mac... I actually think it originated there as Aldus (a long time ago). And for commercial productivity and market compatibility, I HAVE to use it. But as far as freedom of choice is there, I would choose to use it, as it has the largest market compatibility.

Shibblet, I see you are from Wasilla, Alaska, do you know Sarah Palin?

Yessir, I do. She's been a family friend since I was in 5th grade. Also, her father, Chuck, was my 5th grade teacher at Iditarod Elementary in 1985-86.

[burvowski]

You can't be certain there's a Windows computer at Pixar. Highly likely? Probably, but certain is definitely the wrong word to use. You may be CONVINCED there's a windows machine at Pixar, but to say certain, means you know for a fact, which you don't. When you say you're certain of Pixar having a Windows machine somewhere in their office to make a point, which you don't know, then you're just presupposing what you want to prove before you prove it. I'm CERTAIN you would be laughed out of the class (and the professor would join in) in law school for making a mistake like that. Just saying.

[Shibblet]

You can't be certain there's a Windows computer at Pixar. Highly likely? Probably, but certain is definitely the wrong word to use. You may be CONVINCED there's a windows machine at Pixar, but to say certain, means you know for a fact, which you don't. When you say you're certain of Pixar having a Windows machine somewhere in their office to make a point, which you don't know, then you're just presupposing what you want to prove before you prove it. I'm CERTAIN you would be laughed out of the class (and the professor would join in) in law school for making a mistake like that. Just saying.

True. I can't be CERTAIN that there is a Windows machine at Pixar, nor can I be CERTAIN that someone won't pick apart a valid argument to a troublesome level of improper use of CERTAIN words. However, it is highly likely.

One would imagine if Pixar produces video games and software (storybooks, card creators, etc.) that are available for the PC, there would be test machines available.

Guess it's a good thing this isn't law school. :p

"Sarcasm is the sour cream of wit."

[MaxIBoy]

WoW is the largest online game Worldwide, I'm sure I will get no arguments there... And is Windows based. You "can" get it to work with Wine, but not full performance. How could an online gamer (which is the gaming wave of the future) be tempted to switch? I think they finally made an OSX version of it, but that's not a Linux port.WoW doesn't count, because it sucks. It's a much more interesting challenge to create bots for it than it is to play it straight. But naturally, they don't want to challenge you, so they make bots against the rules. :p

[SunnyRabbiera]

Funny as I have not used windows in ages...
And its apps?
Barely use em.

[Wiebelhaus]

I have not logged into a windows machine with MY information in two years other than to test Windows 7 for a few hours each kernel upgrade.

I work on computers but I use Ubuntu or Debian 100% of the time at work to perform repairs and all the computers in my home are running Ubuntu or Debian. And I'm what's considered a power user because I perform advanced fucntions for both work , volunteer work and for pleasure on you guessed it.

Ubuntu or Debian.

[Shibblet]

WoW doesn't count, because it sucks. It's a much more interesting challenge to create bots for it than it is to play it straight. But naturally, they don't want to challenge you, so they make bots against the rules. :p

I truly hope you're joking... WoW single-handedly turned Blizzard into a gaming company to be reckoned with.

I don't particularly care for WoW either, but to nullify it's presence is folly.

[Wiebelhaus]

I truly hope you're joking... WoW single-handedly turned Blizzard into a gaming company to be reckoned with.

I don't particularly care for WoW either, but to nullify it's presence is folly.

He must have got /ban MaxIBoy - lol

[CJ Master]

Linux can be used anywhere, I mean this one time, this guy compiled a kernel of Linux that ran on his wrist watch!!

Erm. Try that one guy that got linux to run on a potato. :P

(Not a joke, google it.)

[unknownPoster]

I used to keep a Windows partition around just for WoW. Then I realized how utterly trivial that was.

And I'll nullify WoW all I want. It's a terrible game which requires no thinking, no skill, nothing. It's so simple, that if it were allowed, bots could play it easily. I regretfully wasted 2 years of my life on it.

Now I keep Windows around because I occasionally do tech support for Windows and it is convenient to have a copy here so that I can try to recreate the problem my clients are having. I don't think you can truly call yourself a "computer-geek" unless you have a working knowledge of all operating systems.

[Shibblet]

And I'll nullify WoW all I want. It's a terrible game which requires no thinking, no skill, nothing. It's so simple, that if it were allowed, bots could play it easily.

Nullify it all you like, it still has 11 million players (active accounts). Meaning it's a MAJOR cause of why people use Windows.

I regretfully wasted 2 years of my life on it.

That is regretable, but 2 years for a computer game is not a null-existance.

[Giant Speck]

http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/2039/inmaihom.png

[jpmelos]

Nullify it all you like, it still has 11 million players (active accounts). Meaning it's a MAJOR cause of why people use Windows.
Please, don't be ridiculous. I've been playing WoW on Linux for over 4 months now. It's perfectly compatible to Wine, and it has been for a while now. Don't talk of what you are not sure, and of what you don't know for that matter.

And I've been free of Windows for over a year now. And it's so easy. Most people just can't do it because they are lazy to learn new things. They are in the confort zone with Windows, and can't find strength to move a finger out of that zone.

I know that because I've tried to tell people to come over and try Linux. Those who have the strength to try give up for lazy to learn to use a couple new applications, get used to the new interface and learn ten command lines.

[pbpersson]

Think about it! If major software companies, like Adobe, or EA released their titles for Linux, it'd be a different ball game. And I truly don't know why they don't.

The application must be designed as platform independent from day one.

If you have an application that is written in a Windows-only paradigm, it would take some big money and several years to make it run anywhere else. You would basically need to create it from scratch. For instance, I used to work at a large company where everything was written in VB6. Good luck porting that over to Linux ;)

[unknownPoster]

Nullify it all you like, it still has 11 million players (active accounts). Meaning it's a MAJOR cause of why people use Windows.



You're exaggerating way too much.
I find that hard to believe. Out of the 10 WoW players I know, 5 use Macs... also I know quite a few people at my local LUG that play WoW within Wine with no problems.

Simply put WoW is not a major reason why people use Windows. I doubt all the WoW players are out there saying to themselves, "I'd use Linux if there is a WoW client." WoW is just one of many reasons...

[Shibblet]

Please, don't be ridiculous. I've been playing WoW on Linux for over 4 months now. It's perfectly compatible to Wine, and it has been for a while now. Don't talk of what you are not sure, and of what you don't know for that matter.

Rediculous would be thinking that WoW isn't played on Windows. Wine compatibility aside, I am sure that a majority of people who play WoW, use Windows. That's a fact.

And I've been free of Windows for over a year now. And it's so easy. Most people just can't do it because they are lazy to learn new things. They are in the confort zone with Windows, and can't find strength to move a finger out of that zone.

I know that because I've tried to tell people to come over and try Linux. Those who have the strength to try give up for lazy to learn to use a couple new applications, get used to the new interface and learn ten command lines.

Comfort zone, exactly my point.

The application must be designed as platform independent from day one.

I disagree... how is it that EA can release a PC, Xbox 360, PS3, and Wii version of the same game all at the same time if they didn't have to all be built platform specific? That question is rhetorical, I know how, so it can't take that long to make a Linux version as well.

[Exciterusa]

Yeah, I heard that. As soon as we in Europe got electricity in about 1997 and the internet-thing last year, we have been catching up on the Windows thing. I mean for me, Windows 3.1 in just such a revelation :) Woah what a sexy desktop. :D :D

3 years ago I was working a job, where one of the client sites was United Airlines. They were still using windows 3.1 for all their ticket counters. Windows 95 in some of the office computers. And they had 1 or 2 XP computers.

[pbpersson]

I disagree... how is it that EA can release a PC, Xbox 360, PS3, and Wii version of the same game all at the same time if they didn't have to all be built platform specific? That question is rhetorical, I know how, so it can't take that long to make a Linux version as well.

I have no idea what the games are written in, what libraries they use, and how the libraries appear on those different platforms. If they write the game once and then deploy it to all those platforms, that tells me that each game is not written five times.

In this case one would THINK they could easily port it to Linux if the libraries they need are in that OS.

I was referring to other software which is written specifically for Windows. It cannot be easily ported to another OS. That was my point.

[gn2]

I think it's impossible to NOT use Windows

It's thinking like that which shackles you to Windows.

Junkies don't need heroin, but try getting them to believe it.....

[derekeverett]

I agree with a lot that I've read here - in particular how great it would be for some companies to release linux versions of their proprietary software.. give us the choice.

I don't use windows.. at all ever. But I admit I have a mac for some audio/video kind of stuff.

[Veteropinguis]

I don't know that you could call Windows a competition-killing monopoly. The main reason for that is that there are what, 65,000 active users on the Ubuntu forums alone? We can figure that most if not all of them run Linux. There are a lot of Mac users. People who don't know about Linux certainly know about Apple products, and they choose to use Windows.

I was thinking last night that maybe one reason Windows and Mac aren't as easy to fix and tinker with as Linux is that that's not the market Microsoft and Apple are selling to. It can definitely be said of people who buy Macs and said with a lot of certainty of people who use Windows, that the preferred response to a computer problem is to throw some money at it and make someone else do it. I don't think there's anything wrong with that response. If your car breaks down, you probably pay someone else to fix it. If your shirt rips at the seam, you pay someone else to replace it. Someone else kills your food and sends it to the store. Ubuntu requires you to be slightly more involved. Not much more involved, but slightly. And since for most people computers are merely a means to an end, and they care about the OS they use as much as they care about the brand of toothpaste they buy, Microsoft is probably going to stay dominant for a while.

However, if tomorrow everyone cancelled their Xbox Live prescriptions and threw out their consoles and games, chucked their Zunes, and switched to Ubuntu, Microsoft would go down in a matter of days. There's nothing keeping them afloat but customers who keep wanting to come back.

I could be in the minority, but I have rarely had problems with Windows- not with any more frequency than I've had problems with Ubuntu. Same goes for my parents, who have been using Microsoft products since the 3.x days. Same for my sister. Same for my friends. We could be a minority but I'm inclined to think that for most people, Windows works well enough.

[H2SO_four]

yawn. OP has been shown evidence contrary to his post and still wont take it as truth. It is not possible for everyone everywhere to not use Windows, however, many people and businesses have survived and thrived without using that particular software.

[Shibblet]

However, if tomorrow everyone cancelled their Xbox Live prescriptions and threw out their consoles and games, chucked their Zunes, and switched to Ubuntu, Microsoft would go down in a matter of days. There's nothing keeping them afloat but customers who keep wanting to come back.

I could be in the minority, but I have rarely had problems with Windows- not with any more frequency than I've had problems with Ubuntu. Same goes for my parents, who have been using Microsoft products since the 3.x days. Same for my sister. Same for my friends. We could be a minority but I'm inclined to think that for most people, Windows works well enough.

I agree 100%. The problem is no one would just drop Windows, because it's impossible not too.

Here are a few examples, and these are for Average Joe consumer.

Average Joe is at the store with his son, and his son wants to buy Bioshock. Does Average Joe snag the copy of Bioshock for the PC for $50.00, or does Average Joe go and buy his son an XBox 360 for $200, and Bioshock for an additional $50.00. Pretty easy to figure that one out.

Secondly, Average Joe's friend Average Bob sends Joe an email with an Excel file attached. So Average Joe loads it up in Open Office, and it comes up screwy. Mainly because Bob didn't format the file correctly. So, does Joe want to go through explaining to Bob on the phone how to format the file correctly so that Joe can open it up the right way? Once again, the answer is 'No'. He just wants to be able to open the file.

Another example... Joe buys himself a brand new MP3 player, to be the envy of his friends. However, the drivers aren't out for Linux yet, he has to wait, and Wine can't run the new software either...

Joe's boss calls him and says, "I need that report done this afternoon, layed out in power-point. Here are the people you need to send it to" and sends him an Outlook Contact List. Now is Joe going to ask his boss to export the contact list a specific way, or is he just going to figure out how to use it?

These are just a few reasons why, I believe the average person can NOT get away from Windows. And another reason why a lot of us Dual Boot.

[Shibblet]

yawn. OP has been shown evidence contrary to his post and still wont take it as truth.

Maybe you didn't read the post properly... I'll ask you to read the first two words of the post, and then repeat over, and over, and over, until you understand what I said.

It is not possible for everyone everywhere to not use Windows, however, many people and businesses have survived and thrived without using that particular software.

Right.

[gn2]

You said "I think".

News just in: you're wrong.

[H2SO_four]

http://www.linsux.org/

That seems like more of your kind of site.

[jprophet420]

Microsoft has truly created a Monopoly. Windows IS a Monopoly on the computer industry. There is nothing that can be done to get away from it.

From internal hardware, peripheral devices, software, etc. There is no way to stay away from Windows.

If you tried, and I mean tried your hardest to only use Ubuntu (Linux) undoubtedly you will, at some point, have a Windows app to run that Wine can't do.

As a graphic designer, I have used Mac's in the past, but the general public always uses Windows, and brings in files made in Publisher, Word, Corel Draw, etc. Not to mention my Roland SC-540II only has Windows based RIP program and drivers.

At work I use Adobe Creative Suite 4, and Wine just CAN'T do it.

Now, this isn't a thread designed to bash Ubuntu (Linux), we all know the performance difference is DRAMATICALLY better in Ubuntu (Linux).

This is a thread asking what can be done to TRULY create an operating system that the entire industry can use (and utilize), and one that would be formidable toward OSX and Windows in the current market.

Competition brings out the best in any product... maybe that's why Windows has so many issues.

The truth of the situation is that no OS is 100% compatible. XP is the most compatible system to date, and Ubuntu is without a doubt more compatible than Vista.

I'm not trying to bash Ubuntu or *nix whatsoever, just giving a professional opinion.

[Shibblet]

You said "I think".

News just in: you're wrong.

Okay... Explain this to Tommy. Dad, why does this game you bought in 2003 just turn gray and sit there?

116790

http://www.linsux.org/

That seems like more of your kind of site.

You know what, why don't you actually follow the thread instead of just jumping in and thinking you know everything.

Don't get me wrong. If the whole world decided to drop Windows and embrace Ubuntu (Linux), I'd be dancing in the streets!

You're right though. People have to want to make the change. But people are stubborn. How can you help them "see the light" ?

Sounds like I just HATE Ubuntu, doesn't it.

And instead of turning this into a lost cause argument, why don't we expand on ideas instead. This thread has turned into mindless crap at this point, people arguing simple statements instead of the real point.

This is supposed to be a community. A place where people can be free with their ideas, free with their thought. Open source your thinking, it's where all great accomplishments come from.

If all you are going to do is say crap like "The OP thinks Linux sucks", and not reading anything else that I have said, then stay out of this thread. Offer constructively, give a counter point, and stop bashing people.

Isn't the whole purpose of this forum to find people who "share" the same ideas, who don't want to use the commercially maintained status-quo?

You are basically saying "This guy had an idea that I don't agree with. What a moron." Tell that to Gallileo, Christopher Columbus, Stephen Hawking, and such. Go laugh at them instead.

[gn2]

Okay... Explain this to Tommy. Dad, why does this game you bought in 2003 just turn gray and sit there?

Get off your butt Tommy and go and ride your bike or play football you lard-a55.

[aysiu]

My wife is an "average Jane" who couldn't play Bioshock on her Mac, so she played it on her PS3. I don't think you'll ever see me or my wife buying a Windows computer.

Sorry.

If your point is that many people use Windows and that it's easy to get locked into Windows-only applications and peripherals, then I agree with you 100%. If your point is that everybody has to use Windows, you're dead wrong, and people have shown you this time and time again over the last fifty or sixty posts.

[heroidi]

I want to never use windows but i have to use it for printing that's why i have another 6 gb hard drive with windows it's almost trashed but it's worth for printing i never use it for anything else i have a hp laserjet 1000 printer hope in next releases it'll be supported for ubuntu so i'm free from that peace of sh** called Window$ it's a real pain in the neck

[Shibblet]

If your point is that many people use Windows and that it's easy to get locked into Windows-only applications and peripherals, then I agree with you 100%. If your point is that everybody has to use Windows, you're dead wrong, and people have shown you this time and time again over the last fifty or sixty posts.

My point is that people get locked into Windows based programs and applications, making it impossible to get away from.

One may not use it on their own personal computer, but you do at work, or at a friends house, mom's laptop, etc.

My point was never to be that everyone HAS to use it by choice. But it will happen.

[jprophet420]

"I agree 100%. The problem is no one would just drop Windows, because it's impossible not too."

You just have to want to is all. Its not that hard.

[Shibblet]

You just have to want to is all. Its not that hard.

By "Want to" does that mean ignore people who don't? If my boss sends me project to do with software that requires Windows, I'm not going to refuse...

Like I said before, on one's personal computer, it can be done. The percentage of people who do is small, but it can be done. For myself personally, I only use Windows for games, iTunes, and my media center extender.

What's the solution for me? Don't use my iPhone? Don't play the games I enjoy on my computer? Don't use my Media Center Extender?

I'm no different from other people out there. It's impossible to get away from. We all have something that works better in Windows. In my case, my Media Center Extender, and Games.

And what about business? If your office uses Windows, guess what sun-shine? You're using it too.

[perce]

That's sweet. One thing I've been wondering though... why is it all of these companies like HP, Intel, Pixar, Linksys, etc. can use Linux, but never contribute to open source GNU?

Is Google the only one giving back to the community?

Intel does: for example powertop, and the drivers for their wireless and graphic cards. And I'm sure many other also do.

[aysiu]

Like I said before, on one's personal computer, it can be done. The percentage of people who do is small, but it can be done. For myself personally, I only use Windows for games, iTunes, and my media center extender.

What's the solution for me? Don't use my iPhone? Don't play the games I enjoy on my computer? Don't use my Media Center Extender? No, there is no solution for you. That's already been established. You've locked yourself into Windows and that's fine.

It's when you begin speaking for other people that you run into problems with your generalizations.

Plenty of people get work done without Windows. Many of these people are, in fact, Mac users. And, yes, a lot of people play games with Windows. They're called consoles (PS3, Wii, XBox 360), and they're quite popular, actually.

[Shibblet]

As I have been writing this, I have spent the last 3 hours trying to get Prince of Persia: Sands of Time to work with Wine. This is an older game.

It's when you begin speaking for other people that you run into problems with your generalizations.

People (in general) don't want to put up with that. Remember Average Joe, he doesn't know crap about his computer. But he does know that it's not supposed to take 3 hours to make a game not work. It's supposed to install and work. PERIOD.

I won't argue that it CAN be made to work under Wine, but I will say you don't have to make it work under Windows, it just installs and plays.

Anyone who CAN make it work under Wine is not "Average Joe" they are "Techno-Savvy".

Plenty of people get work done without Windows. Many of these people are, in fact, Mac users. And, yes, a lot of people play games with Windows. They're called consoles (PS3, Wii, XBox 360), and they're quite popular, actually.

I truly do think that is great! I would love to see Ubuntu more embraced by the public than Windows is.

Quote me here Haters My personal opinion is... "Ubuntu is the BEST distribution, and most widely accepted, version of Linux. Due to ease of use and stability. To me it is faster, more efficient and reliable than Windows."

But Ubuntu users are not a majority, they are a minority.

Consoles are great too, but we'll go back to that whole World of Warcraft argument showing that 11 Million people have chosen the computer (Windows, Mac, or Linux) as their gaming platform. And that's a lot of people not using a console for gaming.

[TheLastDodo]

My point is that people get locked into Windows based programs and applications, making it impossible to get away from.

One may not use it on their own personal computer, but you do at work, or at a friends house, mom's laptop, etc.

My point was never to be that everyone HAS to use it by choice. But it will happen.

I disagree. When using Windows, all one needs to do is to save one's work in open or cross-platform file formats... that way, switching to another OS is pretty easy. I haven't used Windows regularly since 2006 (on a Mac, with some Linux use) and wouldn't have used it at all, if not for trying out the various Windows 7 betas, which interested me. During all this time, I exchanged files with Windows users, and never once had more than a passing problem getting access to the data I needed.

[Anis]

I have been using Linux for few years now but only recently I have started to use Linux for almost everything. I have a blackberry and a TomTom GPS which need updating on a regular basis. I found out that Blackberry can be used with Linux only today and some applications are available for that. Unfortunately the Tomtom is now the only devise which without windows cannot be updated. Correct me if my understanding is wrong.

I did some research and found out that Wine does not help in case of Tomtom. If anyone knows how I can manage The Tomtom without Windows I would be more than happy to give up the Windows OS altogether.

[Shibblet]

all one needs to do is to save one's work in open or cross-platform file formats... that way, switching to another OS is pretty easy.

See, I would agree with you there. But once again, have you ever tried to explain to someone how to "Save as". It can be a frustrating experience.

Try to explain to that person how to program their VCR to record "The Young and the Hopeless".

Hey! There's a prime example. Betty-Lou (cuz it's a funny name) wants to record her soap-opera on her VCR. So she sets her Cable box on Channel 13, and her VCR on Channel 3, then presses record. It works. So Betty-Lou does this day-after-day, because Betty-Lou isn't going to miss ONE DAMN EPISODE of "The Young and the Hopeless". (why? because it's funny)

So (here's the serious part) Betty-Lou's husband wanted to watch NASCAR the night before (Even funnier, Betty-Lou's husband likes NASCAR) on channel 65, and now instead of "The Young and the Hopeless", Betty-Lou got a recording of CSI:Anchorage!

How can we solve this? What's a great solution for Betty-Lou. Go down to her Cable provider, and get a DVR. Anyone who is Techno-Savvy, will know how to operate this, but Betty-Lou can't figure out why the TV needs to be on Channel 3, the VCR needs to be on Channel 3, and the Cable Box needs to be on Channel 13. Holy CRAP! NOW you want her to just go get a DVR? There's no way that's going to be easier or more efficient to Betty-Lou!

So, does she stick with a confuddled configuration of TV/VCR/CableBox (Windows) or does she go get the easy to use, better recording quality, one button simple, records her show every day, but "thinks" it's complicated DVR (Ubuntu)?

Ask Betty-Lou, she just doesn't want to change. And it's all Mental.

[unknownPoster]

Consoles are great too, but we'll go back to that whole World of Warcraft argument showing that 11 Million people have chosen the computer (Windows, Mac, or Linux) as their gaming platform. And that's a lot of people not using a console for gaming.

Yay for sweeping generalizations again. Seriously, stop posting and think about what you're saying. So in this theoretical world of yours, gamers only play one game for their entire "gaming life."

Back in my raiding days in WoW, after a raid, a good many of us would hop on Halo 3/CoD...on CONSOLES...

I know it's hard to understand that many WoW players also own XBoxes, Playstations, and Wiis.

It seems that in your World, there is only Black or White...no Grey/Gray.

[Veteropinguis]

I agree 100%. The problem is no one would just drop Windows, because it's impossible not too.

Here are a few examples, and these are for Average Joe consumer.

Average Joe is at the store with his son, and his son wants to buy Bioshock. Does Average Joe snag the copy of Bioshock for the PC for $50.00, or does Average Joe go and buy his son an XBox 360 for $200, and Bioshock for an additional $50.00. Pretty easy to figure that one out. Took me a minute to get that one. It could be argued that Average Joe could say, "Too bad, can't do that" (as my parents would do) but that's a separate thing. PC gaming is cheaper than console gaming, at least as far as I can tell.


Secondly, Average Joe's friend Average Bob sends Joe an email with an Excel file attached. So Average Joe loads it up in Open Office, and it comes up screwy. Mainly because Bob didn't format the file correctly. So, does Joe want to go through explaining to Bob on the phone how to format the file correctly so that Joe can open it up the right way? Once again, the answer is 'No'. He just wants to be able to open the file.

Another example... Joe buys himself a brand new MP3 player, to be the envy of his friends. However, the drivers aren't out for Linux yet, he has to wait, and Wine can't run the new software either...

Joe's boss calls him and says, "I need that report done this afternoon, layed out in power-point. Here are the people you need to send it to" and sends him an Outlook Contact List. Now is Joe going to ask his boss to export the contact list a specific way, or is he just going to figure out how to use it?

These are just a few reasons why, I believe the average person can NOT get away from Windows. And another reason why a lot of us Dual Boot.

This is true currently, however I'm optimistic that this will change in the future. Like I said before, once Ubuntu has increased compatibility with more hardware/software, we'll see it being more widely adopted.

I plan on setting up my dual-boot again at some point in the future and using it for gaming. My framerates aren't very good in Ubuntu, and I built my machine to be a mid-level gaming rig. I didn't go 100% broke for a couple months to play Frozen Bubble, or HL2 with mediocre graphics and skippy sound.

That said, I'm enjoying Ubuntu quite a lot and think it's a great OS. However, I'm very fond of some games that were made for Windows, so a dual-boot will best serve my needs. Just a matter of having the right tools for the job.

[H2SO_four]

You are painting with a broad brush...

[Shibblet]

Yay for sweeping generalizations again. Seriously, stop posting and think about what you're saying. So in this theoretical world of yours, gamers only play one game for their entire "gaming life."

Back in my raiding days in WoW, after a raid, a good many of us would hop on Halo 3/CoD...on CONSOLES...

I know it's hard to understand that many WoW players also own XBoxes, Playstations, and Wiis.

It seems that in your World, there is only Black or White...no Grey/Gray.

How on earth did you jump to that conclusion? Of course people use consoles to play games, and Halo is HUGE in the online world. My point was simply that a LOT of people use the PC as a gaming platform, and Windows is the PC Gaming OS of choice.

[jprophet420]

By "Want to" does that mean ignore people who don't? If my boss sends me project to do with software that requires Windows, I'm not going to refuse...

Like I said before, on one's personal computer, it can be done. The percentage of people who do is small, but it can be done. For myself personally, I only use Windows for games, iTunes, and my media center extender.

What's the solution for me? Don't use my iPhone? Don't play the games I enjoy on my computer? Don't use my Media Center Extender?

I'm no different from other people out there. It's impossible to get away from. We all have something that works better in Windows. In my case, my Media Center Extender, and Games.

And what about business? If your office uses Windows, guess what sun-shine? You're using it too.

You said impossible. Certainly there are offices that don't use Windows and all the other things you mentioned can be done w/o MS.

[benj1]

i realy don't understand why you (the OP) can't seem to accept that most people can get along fine without windows.
yes the shortcomings with regard to games, itunes and graphics programs etc are known and accepted. the solutions are fairly simple, if a piece of hardware doesn't work (eg your ipod) don't use it, would a windows user change operating systems just to use an mp3 player.
with regard to games, first off not everyone uses their games you quote WoW with 11 milion users, that isn't a very big share of the pc market, 2nd as many people have pointed out use a console.
with regard to businesses the vast majority of SMEs probably just use office and perhaps 1 specialised program, alot of those could move over to linux no problems.

at the end of the day depending on your usage you could probably move over to linux no problems, for the rest its probably a tradeoff, some people choose to dual boot, others choose to not use things that don't work.

[fatality_uk]

i realy don't understand why you (the OP) can't seem to accept that most people can get along fine without windows.

Make a sentence from the following words:
Chain, yanking, your, op, the, is.

:D :D :D

[unknownPoster]

Make a sentence from the following words:
Chain, yanking, your, op, the, is.

:D :D :D

I'm done with this thread.

As they say, "Don't feed the trolls."

[Shibblet]

i realy don't understand why you (the OP) can't seem to accept that most people can get along fine without windows.

As in previous postings in this thread, I have said it is possible to not use Windows on one's own personal computer. If you're willing to give certain things up.

yes the shortcomings with regard to games, itunes and graphics programs etc are known and accepted. the solutions are fairly simple, if a piece of hardware doesn't work (eg your ipod) don't use it, would a windows user change operating systems just to use an mp3 player.

Exactly. "Don't Use It" That's very limiting. As a community, we would do best to find solutions for all hardware. Take it how you want, but the iPod is the #1 MP3 player in the WORLD. You HAVE to have a Mac or PC to run iTunes.

with regard to games, first off not everyone uses their games you quote WoW with 11 milion users, that isn't a very big share of the pc market, 2nd as many people have pointed out use a console.

It's not a huge share of the PC Market, but 11 million people is a large amount of players for a simgle game. And that game is written for Windows. Yes it can be played on Mac, and in Wine, so there are alternatives for WoW. But what about other games, and the 'fuss with it' factor?

with regard to businesses the vast majority of SMEs probably just use office and perhaps 1 specialised program, alot of those could move over to linux no problems.

Our accounting office uses Peachtree. Peachtree is well regarded in the industry as the best accounting software available. However, it's only available for Windows. So, if my business was to go open source, we could not only have to do a change-over, which is costly, but we would also have to re-train employees, which is more costly, not to mention time-consuming. It's a financial impossibility, as well as a compatibility impossibility.

at the end of the day depending on your usage you could probably move over to linux no problems, for the rest its probably a tradeoff, some people choose to dual boot, others choose to not use things that don't work.

I see so many computer users out there, who would BENEFIT greatly by switching to Ubuntu. A majority of people who use a computer, use it primarily for Web-Browsing, Email, Word Processing, Pictures, Music, and just general "stuff". Ubuntu is a FREE way of accomplishing this. Not only do people get a better performing, more efficient, operating system, but they can do it without having to be a software pirate! (Which a lot of home users are.)

Make a sentence from the following words:
Chain, yanking, your, op, the, is.

Which one of us is talking about the situation, and which one is making snide comments?

So, now that everyone thinks I am some kind of Ubuntu hater, which I have posted many times as to how much I like Ubuntu, where do you come up with that conclusion?

[gn2]

You HAVE to have a Mac or PC to run iTunes.

But you don't have to run iTunes to use an iPod.

Apple iPods are only number one in terms of sales and pose factor, better cheaper mp3 players are available.

[Shibblet]

But you don't have to run iTunes to use an iPod.

Apple iPods are only number one in terms of sales and pose factor, better cheaper mp3 players are available.

I agree. There are some Open Source alternatives for iTunes as far as loading music up is concerned. What about loading apps into your iPhone or iPod touch? You need to have iTunes for that.

I agree with the second part of that too, I prefer my Sansa Fuze to and iPod.

And completely off subject again, what the heck is your Avatar a picture of?

[gn2]

You simply don't need an iPod or an iPhone.
Anyone who seriously believes that they need an i-product is in need of education, the classroom's just along the corridor from the "101 reasons you don't need Windows" class.

Rotate my avatar 90 degrees clockwise and it might look more familiar.
It's the cover from Pink Floyd's excellent album Meddle.

[fatality_uk]

What situation?

I think it's impossible to NOT use Windows.?

Well you have been proven wrong, I don't know how many times. It IS possible. Not only that, preferable.

[Tibuda]

You are only arguing that it is HARD not to use Windows. But it is not impossible.

[H2SO_four]

You are only arguing that it is HARD not to use Windows. But it is not impossible.

Bam! Hit the nail right on the head!

[CP1256]

Once uTorrent is ported to Linux, then that's when I'll stop using Wine. Even though I still find it nice to know that I'm able to use some programs that run under Windows in Linux.

All open-source/alternative Linux apps work without a problem for me.

[Shibblet]

You simply don't need an iPod or an iPhone.

True, but you don't really need a computer either. It all comes down to a want. And if you want to use iTunes, you don't want to use Ubutntu? Once again, that's very limiting.

Anyone who seriously believes that they need an i-product is in need of education, the classroom's just along the corridor from the "101 reasons you don't need Windows" class.

A very valid point of view.

Rotate my avatar 90 degrees clockwise and it might look more familiar.
It's the cover from Pink Floyd's excellent album Meddle.

Yes it is, thanks! I still like "Dark Side of the Moon" best, "Delicate Sounds of Thunder" is a good one too, and "Pigs on the Wing." for posterity sake. ;)

Well you have been proven wrong, I don't know how many times. It IS possible. Not only that, preferable.

It's been established that if you want to use Ubuntu (Only) you must be willing to give up certain things, i.e. Games, Peripherals, etc. (cerain ones) In which case IT IS impossible to NOT use Windows.

Go ahead and quote me here... But I would agree that if a person TRULY WANTED to stay away from Windows on a personal computer, it is possible. But that means giving certain things up. It limits your choices in software, games, peripherals, etc.

But quote me here too... The whole reason to go open source is to not be limited.

You are only arguing that it is HARD not to use Windows. But it is not impossible.

In the business world, it would KILL your business to not use it, and be compatible with other businesses. Therefore, the choice is clear to keep it, making the alternative an impossibility.

[jprophet420]

Go ahead and quote me here... But I would agree that if a person TRULY WANTED to stay away from Windows on a personal computer, it is possible. But that means giving certain things up. It limits your choices in software, games, peripherals, etc.

Thats what I keep trying to say, you can do all of that stuff. you cant use every software or peripheral with linux, no. You cant with Vista either so now what?

Im sorry your media doesent work as good as windows, mine does. Im sorry your games dont run as fast as windows, mine do. Im sorry your mp3 player isnt *nix compatible, mine is.

The problem with what youre saying is that it applies to windows too. I cant run my xfx game controller under vista. You cant run freelancer under vista home basic. You cant connect to a hotspot with home basic. I can do all of that with linux. and Ubuntu isnt like all other distros. Just like you like 'media center' all versions of windows cant do that. You cant even play a dvd in default 'basic' windows.

[WatchingThePain]

Surprise.
Believe it or not (who cares) I never use Windows.
I am not a gamer so maybe that can explain it.
Perhaps I would buy the odd Linux game if there were any worthy.
I have evolved.
Or I realised that I didn't need Windows, I don't know.
I don't miss Windows at all though.
If you don't need it, don't use it.

What I enjoy most is the way my Linux pc responds very quickly.
On Windows there was always a pause or stutter which was getting on my damn nerves.

[H2SO_four]

Once uTorrent is ported to Linux, then that's when I'll stop using Wine. Even though I still find it nice to know that I'm able to use some programs that run under Windows in Linux.

All open-source/alternative Linux apps work without a problem for me.

Not a fan of Deluge or Azerus?

[Shibblet]

Thats what I keep trying to say, you can do all of that stuff. you cant use every software or peripheral with linux, no. You cant with Vista either so now what?

Im sorry your media doesent work as good as windows, mine does. Im sorry your games dont run as fast as windows, mine do. Im sorry your mp3 player isnt *nix compatible, mine is.

The problem with what youre saying is that it applies to windows too. I cant run my xfx game controller under vista. You cant run freelancer under vista home basic. You cant connect to a hotspot with home basic. I can do all of that with linux. and Ubuntu isnt like all other distros. Just like you like 'media center' all versions of windows cant do that. You cant even play a dvd in default 'basic' windows.

True, as far as complete compatibility is concerned, nothing works 100%. However, Windows compatibility is in the 95 percentile with software and hardware, where Ubuntu is more like 60-70.

I don't know the "actual" percentage, but I'm pretty close.

I would like to see Ubuntu in the 90 percentile, that means better support for a better operating system.

[WatchingThePain]

Once uTorrent is ported to Linux, then that's when I'll stop using Wine. Even though I still find it nice to know that I'm able to use some programs that run under Windows in Linux.

All open-source/alternative Linux apps work without a problem for me.

Utorrent works in wine for me no problemo.
Deluge also works fine.

[Shibblet]

What I enjoy most is the way my Linux pc responds very quickly.
On Windows there was always a pause or stutter which was getting on my damn nerves.
Amen Brother... This was one of my favorites.

116927

Read the whole article here. (http://www.tuxradar.com/content/benchmarked-ubuntu-vs-vista-vs-windows-7)

[WatchingThePain]

Amen Brother... This was one of my favorites.

116927

Read the whole article here. (http://www.tuxradar.com/content/benchmarked-ubuntu-vs-vista-vs-windows-7)

Nice one.
Serious, that's the main reason I left Windows.
I think that's why some people refer to it as Windoze because it keeps falling asleep.
I use pc's a lot so for me it's very noticeable.
My "benchmark" is that Linux responds faster.

[gn2]

True, but you don't really need a computer either. It all comes down to a want.

You have just shot down your own argument and it spirals to the ground in flames.

You have accepted that you don't "need" a computer and that it's just "a want", therefore you can't possibly "need" Windows either.

[aysiu]

You simply don't need an iPod or an iPhone.

True, but you don't really need a computer either. It all comes down to a want. And if you want to use iTunes, you don't want to use Ubutntu? Once again, that's very limiting. The difference here is that if you don't use a computer, there is pretty much nothing that can be used in its place to achieve the same tasks in roughly the same time.

On the other hand, you can easily replace an iPod with a Sandisk or iRiver player, and an iPhone with a G1 phone; and still be able to perform roughly the same functions (sometimes *gasp* even more functions!).

[Shibblet]

You have just shot down your own argument and it spirals to the ground in flames.

From your point of view. If you need to state that the debate is over, then it isn't. A true debate finishes itself.

You have accepted that you don't "need" a computer and that it's just "a want", therefore you can't possibly "need" Windows either.

Why would I be in an internet forum if I chose to not use a computer? Just having a computer is all about wants, not needs.

Are we arguing needs in the "hunter-gatherer" sense of the word? In which case "Computer" will not be in the sentance.

But if we think of the needs for a professional business, we will find that we "need" Windows.

The difference here is that if you don't use a computer, there is pretty much nothing that can be used in its place to achieve the same tasks in roughly the same time.
I agree completely, if the need wasn't a computer, there would be no "need" for this thread. ;) (a little self bashing never hurt anyone... else)

On the other hand, you can easily replace an iPod with a Sandisk or iRiver player, and an iPhone with a G1 phone; and still be able to perform roughly the same functions (sometimes *gasp* even more functions!).

True. Many other options exist. And all of those options are supported in Windows too, as well as the options you originally wanted.

I'm not bashing Ubuntu. Linux in general just needs more support. Most of the professional world thinks that Linux is a toy for computer hackers, and not something that can be taken seriously. Ubuntu has done a fantastic job of making it more widely accepted.

So I will further the thread, how can we make it so Windows is unnecessary for the masses? The only solution I can think of, is beef-up the support for Ubuntu.

[gn2]

But if we think of the needs for a professional business, we will find that we "need" Windows.

You might, we don't.

[Shibblet]

You might, we don't.

I've provided situations where Windows is necessary, how come no one has provided a situation where it isn't?

Edit: I'll rephrase. How can you use Ubuntu in a business situation where other businesses that use Windows would be cross compatible.

[gn2]

OK, what tasks can Windows do that cannot be done with Linux?

[Shibblet]

OK, what tasks can Windows do that cannot be done with Linux?

Sync my iPhone. Run Vista Media Center. Ever watch the "Mac / PC" commercials. That's not really a fair question.

That's like asking what task does a Ford Focus perform that a Ferrari F550 doesn't? Well, they both get you from A to B.

Tasks aren't the question. Software is the question.

The business world uses Windows software, Ubuntu doesn't run it.

[gn2]

The business world uses Windows software.

But these days it simply doesn't have to.

The only thing keeping Windows alive is inertia.

[benj1]

I've provided situations where Windows is necessary, how come no one has provided a situation where it isn't?


try the live cd, that should provide a few examples

Edit: I'll rephrase. How can you use Ubuntu in a business situation where other businesses that use Windows would be cross compatible.

openoffice is cross compatible with MS office, i assume emails are compatible, pdfs.

Sync my iPhone. Run Vista Media Center. Ever watch the "Mac / PC" commercials. That's not really a fair question.

That's like asking what task does a Ford Focus perform that a Ferrari F550 doesn't? Well, they both get you from A to B.

Tasks aren't the question. Software is the question.

The business world uses Windows software, Ubuntu doesn't run it.
it is a fair question, software is there to perform tasks, yes it doesn't have itunes but it has software that performs the same task, and if you think that then there was no point starting this thread, because obviously linux isnt going to be good enough, just because it isn't windows.

[Wiebelhaus]

Ok , I"ve read the thread , I've replied and I hoped it would go away , every time I hit "New Posts" here it is again , Every man and woman is entitled to their opinion. But the OP is dead wrong.

[aysiu]

I've provided situations where Windows is necessary, how come no one has provided a situation where it isn't? People have been doing this the whole thread. You just haven't been paying attention. For example, you said some fictional character needs Windows to play Bioshock. I told you how my wife (who uses a Mac, not Windows) played Bioshock on her PS3. She did not need Windows. She does graphic design for a living. For that, she does not need Windows. I believe I already said this. And others have presented examples as well.

You just have to assess your own needs and get the most appropriate tool. If you need Windows, you need Windows. If you don't need Windows, you don't need Windows.

As long as you're willing to say "I, Shibblet, need Windows but understand perfectly well that I am not everybody, and there are people who don't need Windows," then there's nothing left to argue about.

Edit: I'll rephrase. How can you use Ubuntu in a business situation where other businesses that use Windows would be cross compatible. Well, you're already making it difficult by necessiting the other businesses using Windows. You also haven't said what kind of business it is. As I said before, my wife does graphic design professionally and uses only Macs. I'm sure some of her clients use Windows, but she somehow manages.

This is why I think it's more important to switch Windows users to open source applications than it is to switch them to Linux. If Windows users are using Firefox, OpenOffice, GIMP, and Songbird, then what does it matter to me as a Ubuntu user if I have to exchange files with them? I don't care, then, if they're using Windows or not.


But if we think of the needs for a professional business, we will find that we "need" Windows. It really depends on the business. And what would be so bad about having one Windows computer anyway? Take a company like Pixar, for example. What if Pixar had Windows computers for accounting, Macs for general design and editing, and Linux computers for rendering? So what? Why would they have to abandon Windows?

There's nothing inherently wrong with using Windows, as long as you're open to other possibilities, and you're open to keeping to open standards and cross-platform (preferably open source) applications.

So I will further the thread, how can we make it so Windows is unnecessary for the masses? The only solution I can think of, is beef-up the support for Ubuntu. It isn't necessary for the masses. I thought we already discussed this. Do a lot of the masses entrench themselves in Windows dependency? Sure. Do they have to? No.

They can accomplish many of the same tasks, as long as they're willing to switch up to different ways of doing things. Instead of buying Windows games, get a console. Instead of using an iPhone, get a G1. It's not that difficult, really.

When I first switched over to Linux, I had an iPod and dual-booted for iTunes. Gradually, I weaned myself off both iPods and iTunes, and I now have a Sandisk player and Rhythmbox. I still listen to music. I haven't sacrificed anything. I've just chosen a different product and a different way of doing things. In fact, I have even more functionality, as I can listen to the radio on my Sandisk player (something I couldn't do on my iPod), and I can use global keyboard shortcuts (something that can't be done in iTunes in Windows any more).

If you want to know practically how to get people thinking out of Windows dependence, here are some suggestions: As much as possible (without being obnoxious), encourage Windows users to use open source Windows applications (http://www.opensourcewindows.org). Buy Linux preinstalled. Vote with your wallet. If OEMs see Linux as profitable, they'll offer more options and then it will be more visible to the general public. Always have a live CD handy, in case someone asks about Linux... or in case you need to save a crashed Windows computer.

[Shibblet]

try the live cd, that should provide a few examples

I use Ubuntu. I don't need the LiveCD anymore.

openoffice is cross compatible with MS office, i assume emails are compatible, pdfs.

True enough, but is Peachtree Accounting Software? How about TSS POS System? Roland ColoRIP? These are all specific task applications, that only run on Windows.

it is a fair question, software is there to perform tasks, yes it doesn't have itunes but it has software that performs the same task, and if you think that then there was no point starting this thread, because obviously linux isnt going to be good enough, just because it isn't windows.

Read the thread. I have said Ubuntu is a great OS, you just can't get away from Windows. I even started by calling Microsoft a Monopoly. And it is.

Ok , I"ve read the thread , I've replied and I hoped it would go away , every time I hit "New Posts" here it is again , Every man and woman is entitled to their opinion. But the OP is dead wrong.

Well, thanks for backing that up with some information, instead of just a direct opinion.

[unknownPoster]

Well, thanks for backing that up with some information, instead of just a direct opinion.

That is so ironic, I'm literally sitting here laughing out loud.

[Wiebelhaus]

I use Ubuntu. I don't need the LiveCD anymore.



True enough, but is Peachtree Accounting Software? How about TSS POS System? Roland ColoRIP? These are all specific task applications, that only run on Windows.



Read the thread. I have said Ubuntu is a great OS, you just can't get away from Windows. I even started by calling Microsoft a Monopoly. And it is.



Well, thanks for backing that up with some information, instead of just a direct opinion.

There's no reason to because you'll just disagree , there's no reason to converse with someone who is just disagreeable with a thread that is ridiculous and it's main purpose is to be disagreeable. It's honestly a waste of time , I'll now go use my time wisely by helping people who deserve and appreciate it. So with saying that it basically boils down to , your not worth the effort.

[Shibblet]

People have been doing this the whole thread. You just haven't been paying attention. For example, you said some fictional character needs Windows to play Bioshock. I told you how my wife (who uses a Mac, not Windows) played Bioshock on her PS3. She did not need Windows. She does graphic design for a living. For that, she does not need Windows. I believe I already said this. And others have presented examples as well.

I agree, there are alternatives.

You just have to assess your own needs and get the most appropriate tool. If you need Windows, you need Windows. If you don't need Windows, you don't need Windows.

I agree. As a side note, I think any professional business (maybe not single owner/operator, or home based) needs Windows.

As long as you're willing to say "I, Shibblet, need Windows but understand perfectly well that I am not everybody, and there are people who don't need Windows," then there's nothing left to argue about.

Well, sure, there are people out there who don't need Windows. But as it is in 90% of all the computers out there, it's like saying you don't need a car.

Well, you're already making it difficult by necessiting the other businesses using Windows. You also haven't said what kind of business it is. As I said before, my wife does graphic design professionally and uses only Macs. I'm sure some of her clients use Windows, but she somehow manages.

You know, the funny part is that I am a Graphic Designer also, and I have worked in MANY different print shops. Most of the print shops do all of their design work with Adobe Software on Macs. But there is always someone who brings in a PC file that the Mac can't read or open. So what do you do? Do I deny this person our service? Do I deny myself the business? Professionally, that would be wrong.

Secondly, we have a Roland SC-540II, Vinyl Printer/Cutter. The RIP (Raster Image Process) Software is ONLY available for Windows. Again, do I deny my business the ability to use this machine? Professionally, that wouldn't just be wrong, it'd be stupid.

There's nothing inherently wrong with using Windows, as long as you're open to other possibilities, and you're open to keeping to open standards and cross-platform (preferably open source) applications.

And there is nothing wrong with Ubuntu. It allows you to be open to the many different possibilities.

It isn't necessary for the masses. I thought we already discussed this. Do a lot of the masses entrench themselves in Windows dependency? Sure. Do they have to? No.

And this is an entirely different subject, but if Ubuntu would gear itself for the masses, there will be a lot more support.

[Shibblet]

There's no reason to because you'll just disagree , there's no reason to converse with someone who is just disagreeable with a thread that is ridiculous and it's main purpose is to be disagreeable. It's honestly a waste of time , I'll now go use my time wisely by helping people who deserve and appreciate it. So with saying that it basically boils down to , your not worth the effort.

Instead of offering something constructive, you flipped me the bird because I have a different opinion than you do.

And if you read the thread, you'll notice that I have agreed with a lot of things.

[dragos240]

How?

Easy, google search linux alternatives, there are MANY MANY of them out there. You may want to check out osalt.

[aysiu]

Well, sure, there are people out there who don't need Windows. But as it is in 90% of all the computers out there, it's like saying you don't need a car. We got rid of our car two years ago. Not everyone needs Windows. Not everyone needs a car.

[Shibblet]

We got rid of our car two years ago. Not everyone needs Windows. Not everyone needs a car.

Fair enough.

But what would truly be funny, is if you traded your car for a computer to run Ubuntu on. :P Just kidding.

[benj1]

I use Ubuntu. I don't need the LiveCD anymore.
well then you should be aware of things that you can do, that dont require windows, im assuming you do actually use ubuntu for something



True enough, but is Peachtree Accounting Software? How about TSS POS System? Roland ColoRIP? These are all specific task applications, that only run on Windows.


well i haven't heard of peachtree, sage is more popular, in the uk at least. so i don't know if its compatible with other software. but no one has any rights over accounting, the standards are there in law, anyone can write an accounting program so im sure there are many open source alternatives. you can't argue your case by citing specific examples of software. fair enough if there are no open source alternatives, but for the vast majority there is an alternative.

ps
ive decided to make the case that it is impossible to not use linux, because i like playing gnometris.
whos with me?

[subdivision]

I can't remember the last time I used Windows at home. Both my desktop and laptop run Arch.

I use Windows at work but I don't technically have to; I just don't feel like using my own computer to do work stuff.

[WatchingThePain]

Yeah I am an Archer.
Unfortunately sometimes at work I must touch "The dirty thing".
I always shower afterwards.
Some people don't need Windows.
Blessed are the Geeks for they shall inherit the Earth.

[gn2]

I've just realised I need windows after all. Damn.

How else am I going to be able to run viruses?

[WatchingThePain]

Lol.
You gotta hand it to Windows, it's good for viruses.
I used to think of them as my little pets.

I'd like to see Laurel and Hardy or the Marx brothers do a sketch on Windows.

[H2SO_four]

I've just realised I need windows after all. Damn.

How else am I going to be able to run viruses?

+1 funny!

[joyneo04]

Don't know and don't want to comment on other but i am using ubuntu for a quite long time.In my office xp is installed but at home i use ubuntu and i have no issues in using the same....i bring office work to home and am able to do these work finely in ubuntu as well.......

[Shibblet]

well i haven't heard of peachtree, sage is more popular, in the uk at least. so i don't know if its compatible with other software. but no one has any rights over accounting, the standards are there in law, anyone can write an accounting program so im sure there are many open source alternatives. you can't argue your case by citing specific examples of software. fair enough if there are no open source alternatives, but for the vast majority there is an alternative.

But the problem is alternatives, and getting someone to actually want to use the alternative.

People are creatures of habit, and old habits die hard. One of the main reasons that Windows hasn't progressed to a better OS, is because of backward compatibility.

i.e. Betty-Lou's old HP-01 Dot Matrix Printer doesn't have an XP driver.

[benj1]

But the problem is alternatives, and getting someone to actually want to use the alternative.

People are creatures of habit, and old habits die hard. One of the main reasons that Windows hasn't progressed to a better OS, is because of backward compatibility.

i.e. Betty-Lou's old HP-01 Dot Matrix Printer doesn't have an XP driver.

now correct me if im wrong but the thread title says
" I think it's impossible to NOT use Windows."
habit has nothing to do with possibility or impossibility

[Shibblet]

now correct me if im wrong but the thread title says
" I think it's impossible to NOT use Windows."
habit has nothing to do with possibility or impossibility

In the literal sense of the word.

Try to get Grandma to stop watching the knitting channel... ;)
Try to get Skeeter to stop drinking beer.
Try to get Gilbert Godfrey to stop being annoying.
Try to get Michael Jackson to stop hangin' with kids.

The argument always ends with "Oh, you're impossible."

Side note: Try to convince your boss to run Ubuntu on all the business computers.

[benj1]

In the literal sense of the word.

Try to get Grandma to stop watching the knitting channel... ;)
Try to get Skeeter to stop drinking beer.
Try to get Gilbert Godfrey to stop being annoying.
Try to get Michael Jackson to stop hangin' with kids.

The argument always ends with "Oh, you're impossible."

Side note: Try to convince your boss to run Ubuntu on all the business computers.

my nan doesn't knit. skeeter, gilbert godfrey ??? michael jackson stop parents sending their kids round to his house then later sueing him.

its not impossible to convince my boss to use ubuntu, for all you know i might be my own boss, my company might use macs/unix.

or is what youre saying is that you were paraphrasing when you said its impossible to not use windows, and it is actually possible to not use windows. and that what you actually mean is that in some circumstances its impratical for what ever reason, which is what everybody in this thread has been saying.

[Shibblet]

or is what youre saying is that you were paraphrasing when you said its impossible to not use windows, and it is actually possible to not use windows. and that what you actually mean is that in some circumstances its impratical for what ever reason, which is what everybody in this thread has been saying.

So you're arguing the Douglas Adams sense of the word. Nothing is impossible, just highly improbable.

Then Look, I changed the title to... "It is infinitely improbable to NOT use Windows."

So in other words, this whole thread is based on the argument that "Impossible" was the "wrong" "word" to "use".

And off subject again, but just for fun... "Skeeter" is a "Redneck" or "Hillbilly", and Gilbert Godfrey is ... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tw10xa_xtNg)

[Tibuda]

Then Look, I changed the title to... "It is infinitely improbable to NOT use Windows."

"Infinitely" is also a wrong word. You can't have a probability higher than 100% or lower than 0%, finite numbers. So it is impossible for something to be infinitely (im)probable.

Well, now that you are talking about this... We can estimate the probability to not use Windows: 6.13% (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems). I know this data is not entirely reliable, but it is the data we have available.

[Shibblet]

"Infinitely" is also a wrong word. You can't have a probability higher than 100% or lower than 0%, finite numbers. So it is impossible for something to be infinitely (im)probable.

Read "Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy" by Douglas Adams. You'll get the joke.

Well, now that you are talking about this... We can estimate the probability to not use Windows: 6.13% (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems). I know this data is not entirely reliable, but it is the data we have available.

Now that's interesting. And since it is 6.13% and not 0%, I am vindicated!

[tcoffeep]

EA releases the same games for Wii, PS3, XBox, and Windows.

Linux is still a niche market.

[benj1]

So you're arguing the Douglas Adams sense of the word. Nothing is impossible, just highly improbable.

Then Look, I changed the title to... "It is infinitely improbable to NOT use Windows."

So in other words, this whole thread is based on the argument that "Impossible" was the "wrong" "word" to "use".



im not arguing the douglas adams sense of the word, there are impossible things, not using windows isn't one of them, you accepting that is.

[Shibblet]

im not arguing the douglas adams sense of the word, there are impossible things, not using windows isn't one of them, you accepting that is.

It's kind of like watching TV. If one didn't want to watch TV, one wouldn't buy a TV. But the impossible part would be staying away from TV.

Walking by a store window, having a drink with friends at the local bar (pub), going to a friends house, etc. It would be impossible to truly stay away from. However, the decision was made to not watch TV. But staying away from it completely is IMPOSSIBLE, or Infinitely Improbable. ;)

[aysiu]

It's kind of like watching TV. If one didn't want to watch TV, one wouldn't buy a TV. But the impossible part would be staying away from TV. If you're using that as an analogy to the idea that it's impossible to not use Windows, then that's circular logic. You're basically saying that in order to use Windows, you have to use Windows. Well, of course, you do.

But you do not have to use Windows in order to use a computer.

It's the same with you saying you have to own a car. Well, no, you don't. Sure, you have to own a car to own a car. But you don't have to own a car to get from point A to point B. You can walk, run, bike, rollerblade, take a bus, take a train, ice skate. A car is just one means of transportation to get from one place to another.

Same thing with Windows. It is just one operating system to interface between applications and computers. Mac OS X is another operating system. Linux distros are another set of operating systems.

I don't recommend that everyone get rid of their cars, just as I don't recommend everyone get rid of Windows. It's all about assessing needs. I don't see why it's so complicated. If you use Windows-only applications and need those to perform functions that non-Windows applications cannot perform, then I guess you need Windows. But, if not, then you don't need Windows.

It's just something that each individual and each company has to assess on a case-by-case basis. Do I need Windows or not?

[ActiveFrost]

Branding, branding, branding ..
Why Adobe, EA Games, etc. does not support Linux platforms ( mainly ) ? Because they are not interested in this field ( how many of your friends use ONLY Linux ? A few .. from hundred ! ).
What I've mentioned is that most of these questions ( "why do we need Linux", "stupid OS", etc. ) come from young people who need their COD4 or Linage II. Photoshop .. almost anything can be done in GIMP - the question is .. do you want it or it's all about the branding.

I don't like Microsoft only for 1 reason - it's an expensive platform. If I would have enough money to buy licensed software whenever I need it, yeah .. maybe I would switch back.
Enjoy the freedom of Linux/Ubuntu and don't blame it .. you haven't paid a single cent for being here and using it ;)

[Bigtime_Scrub]

It is very possible to not use windows.

I only use Linux now. My printer, wireless internet, ipod, and Blackjack II all work flawlessly. There a gazzillion apps in the repositories for everything you need.

Yes you can use windows with open source software, but the difference is Linux is free, more secure,faster, and for a lot of other reasons.

The only difference is you can't really play Windows PC games on Linux....bit f'n deal. Get yourself an XBOX360...then put Linux on that too!

[cmay]

If you're using that as an analogy to the idea that it's impossible to not use Windows, then that's circular logic. You're basically saying that in order to use Windows, you have to use Windows. Well, of course, you do.

But you do not have to use Windows in order to use a computer.

It's the same with you saying you have to own a car. Well, no, you don't. Sure, you have to own a car to own a car. But you don't have to own a car to get from point A to point B. You can walk, run, bike, rollerblade, take a bus, take a train, ice skate. A car is just one means of transportation to get from one place to another.

Same thing with Windows. It is just one operating system to interface between applications and computers. Mac OS X is another operating system. Linux distros are another set of operating systems.

I don't recommend that everyone get rid of their cars, just as I don't recommend everyone get rid of Windows. It's all about assessing needs. I don't see why it's so complicated. If you use Windows-only applications and need those to perform functions that non-Windows applications cannot perform, then I guess you need Windows. But, if not, then you don't need Windows.

It's just something that each individual and each company has to assess on a case-by-case basis. Do I need Windows or not?

its funny but i do not have a car and never did., i do not have a tv no more since my tv broke about 7 years ago and i did never replace it. i read a lot books from the library instead. i do not have a cell phone either . i have a old used phone i got from the recycle center .

now i dont even use linux that much no since i found open solaris but i still have to use ubuntu on my laptop due to drivers missing for the wireless and wired network and the video card does not seem to work very well with any BSD.

i did not use windows since dapper drake and etch was released and i still do not have car tv windows and i live very well. meanwhile the law has changed in denmark so i have to pay a license for being able to watch tv on my computer and therefor i installed vlc on ubuntu and do watch a bit of tv online sometimes. not that it is important to me.

every one can choose to live with out windows and for that matter i did not even have a computer before i was 25 years old. i am 34 years old now and i still live very well with out those things others feel they cant live with out.

it is not impossible to live with out anything other than the basic food water and shelter ,

[ActiveFrost]

its funny but i do not have a car and never did., i do not have a tv no more since my tv broke about 7 years ago and i did never replace it. i read a lot books from the library instead. i do not have a cell phone either . i have a old used phone i got from the recycle center .

now i dont even use linux that much no since i found open solaris but i still have to use ubuntu on my laptop due to drivers missing for the wireless and wired network and the video card does not seem to work very well with any BSD.

i did not use windows since dapper drake and etch was released and i still do not have car tv windows and i live very well. meanwhile the law has changed in denmark so i have to pay a license for being able to watch tv on my computer and therefor i installed vlc on ubuntu and do watch a bit of tv online sometimes. not that it is important to me.

every one can choose to live with out windows and for that matter i did not even have a computer before i was 25 years old. i am 34 years old now and i still live very well with out those things others feel they cant live with out.

it is not impossible to live with out anything other than the basic food water and shelter ,

+1 ( thoughtful post ) :)

[aysiu]

every one can choose to live with out windows and for that matter i did not even have a computer before i was 25 years old. i am 34 years old now and i still live very well with out those things others feel they cant live with out. But my point is that you are not necessarily sacrificing functionality by getting rid of Windows.

Of course you don't need to do anything.

But you may require certain tools in order to perform a task. For example, if I want to watch a YouTube video, I need a computer of some kind in order to do that. It doesn't have to be a Windows computer. It doesn't even have to be a notebook/netbook/desktop. It could be a cell phone. I can't watch a YouTube video from a paper-and-ink book.

Saying you don't need Windows because you don't need a computer skirts the issue, which is whether you need Windows or not if you want to perform tasks that require a computer.

It's a bit like someone asking "Do I need a wedding ceremony in order to get married?" and then someone else replying "You don't need to get married." Well, of course the asker doesn't need to get married. That's not the question, though. The question isn't "Should I get married?" The question is "In order to get married, do I need this event?"

Same deal here. We're saying if you are going to use a computer in business or at home, do you also need Windows to use that computer? And, of course, the answer is "No."

[Shibblet]

It's just something that each individual and each company has to assess on a case-by-case basis. Do I need Windows or not?

Very true.

Same deal here. We're saying if you are going to use a computer in business or at home, do you also need Windows to use that computer? And, of course, the answer is "No."

And you can choose to not use it. And then you choose to not have an iPhone, or a new HP Printer (Driver support), or choose to not use certain software.

And those choices will make it "infinitely improbable" for most people.

The difference of opinion at just my place of work is amazing.

My manager, who is "computer-savvy" tried Ubuntu. He liked the performance and security, but hated the "linux" side of it, where you had to build drivers, make things work, and tinker.

My co-worker, who knows how to operate a computer refuses to try Ubuntu, based on the fact that Windows does what he wants, and he doesn't need to try it.

My other co-worker, who knows nothing about computers in general (this is the guy who has lost his iPod library about 6 times) is thinking about getting a Mac for the simplicity. I actually applaud that decision.

and Myself. I use Ubuntu on my personal computer, and love the performance, security, and simplicity.

So in this little crew of 4 people, three dismiss Linux (Ubuntu). One uses it and likes it. For those 3 people, change is "infinitely improbable".

[jasonsjunk]

I've been using Linux only on three of my computers for 2 years, the only Windows in the house is on my wifes laptop. I have Linux running everything I need and more than I ever had when I ran WinXP. All the time I hear people on the phone complain how their computers are running slow yet I don't seem to have that problem even when I am on my old PIII 933mHz computer. All of my boxes hum along without any issues.

Personally I think Jaunty is one of the biggest threats to MS out there. Jaunty is by far the smoothest version yet and one of the best just keeps getting better can MS say that? Vista was a turd when it came out, it was worse than XP, now they have the new Vista service pack so it is a polished turd but a turd is still a piece of crap no matter how much polish you put on it.

[Shibblet]

Personally I think Jaunty is one of the biggest threats to MS out there. Jaunty is by far the smoothest version yet and one of the best just keeps getting better can MS say that? Vista was a turd when it came out, it was worse than XP, now they have the new Vista service pack so it is a polished turd but a turd is still a piece of crap no matter how much polish you put on it.

Jaunty Rocks.

I wonder though... Do you think Ubuntu will have to lose it's "Linux" interface in order to truly be a formidable OS?

Like losing Synaptic, or Terminal, as these aren't "simple" interfaces.

[aysiu]

Jaunty Rocks.

I wonder though... Do you think Ubuntu will have to lose it's "Linux" interface in order to truly be a formidable OS?

Like losing Synaptic, or Terminal, as these aren't "simple" interfaces.
No.

If the Linux netbook phenomenon has shown us anything, it's that dumbed-down interfaces work against Linux in terms of public perceptions of its ease of use. People view Linux as toy-like or crippled if they have to use the Eee Xandros or Linpus Linux Lite.

With a standard Gnome or KDE desktop, there is a wealth of documentation and help available for new users. I recently sold my old Eee PC 701 with Xandros on it, and the new owner asked me right away how to install Opera on it. I had to give a link to some complicated terminal instructions on the eeeuser.com wiki. If it'd been a normal distro like Ubuntu, I would have just said to go to the Opera website, download the Ubuntu .deb, and double-click it.

People don't have to use Synaptic when Add/Remove is available, and Ubuntu devs seem to be moving to something else called App Center (we'll see how that turns out).

Macs have a bash terminal, and I see very little complaints about its existence.

[Shibblet]

If the Linux netbook phenomenon has shown us anything, it's that dumbed-down interfaces work against Linux in terms of public perceptions of its ease of use. People view Linux as toy-like or crippled if they have to use the Eee Xandros or Linpus Linux Lite.

It's funny you'd say that, because I didn't even think about Linux until I got a netbook.

But, if you look at how many people use "dumbed down" operating systems over ones that aren't... you'll see a different trend.

I once had a Microsoft Technician tell me (About XP), and I quote "You should never have to open up the command prompt."

With a standard Gnome or KDE desktop, there is a wealth of documentation and help available for new users. I recently sold my old Eee PC 701 with Xandros on it, and the new owner asked me right away how to install Opera on it. I had to give a link to some complicated terminal instructions on the eeeuser.com wiki. If it'd been a normal distro like Ubuntu, I would have just said to go to the Opera website, download the Ubuntu .deb, and double-click it.

I tried, and I stress "tried" Sabayon. That's an exercise in frustration right there. The simplicity of Ubuntu, espcially the package manager, is a lot easier.

People don't have to use Synaptic when Add/Remove is available, and Ubuntu devs seem to be moving to something else called App Center (we'll see how that turns out).

Not for installs, sometimes it happens for removals.

[aysiu]

But, if you look at how many people use "dumbed down" operating systems over ones that aren't... you'll see a different trend.

I once had a Microsoft Technician tell me (About XP), and I quote "You should never have to open up the command prompt." By "dumbed down" I mean interfaces that don't show you all the GUI options available and actually disable certain GUI options thinking those options will confuse you.

I don't mean to say at all that GUI interfaces by definition are dumbed down (in contrast with command prompts).

I mean to say that the GUI interfaces people have created for netbooks are dumbed down in comparison to full desktop environments like Gnome or KDE.

I tried, and I stress "tried" Sabayon. That's an exercise in frustration right there. The simplicity of Ubuntu, espcially the package manager, is a lot easier. I agree fully. I don't know why you're telling me this. That was actually my point. Why use a crippled distro when you can use regular Ubuntu?

Not for installs, sometimes it happens for removals. If people are removing regular end-user programs, they can do so through Add/Remove. Computer Janitor can remove libraries for those who find Synaptic confusing.

[Shibblet]

I am assuming the Asus Interface cannot be turned off, like you can with the Ubuntu NBR.

That'd be irritating.

[gn2]

I am assuming ~

A mistake. Never assume, always confirm.

[sydbat]

It seems to me the OP is arguing for arguments sake. While humorous for awhile (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDjCqjzbvJY&feature=related), it becomes tedious and counter-productive in short order. As stated many times, this thread has become a circular argument with every "point" the OP has made being fully addressed and answered.

[benj1]

It seems to me the OP is arguing for arguments sake. While humorous for awhile (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDjCqjzbvJY&feature=related), it becomes tedious and counter-productive in short order. As stated many times, this thread has become a circular argument with every "point" the OP has made being fully addressed and answered.

would that be a link to a performance by a certain rick astley per chance ?

[Shibblet]

A mistake. Never assume, always confirm.

Okay, can it be turned off?

would that be a link to a performance by a certain rick astley per chance ?

Now that's funny! Rick Rolled via Ubuntu Forums (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yu_moia-oVI)

And, yes, the discussion is over. I just was asking a general question.

I have determined that some people CAN stay away from Windows. But they are a small minority in the computer world, as are Linux users in general.

In my personal life, I find it impossible to dismiss windows entirely. Therefore "I think" it's impossible to NOT use Windows, is still a valid statement, for myself.

[tcoffeep]

No Rickrolling was never funny.

[gn2]

Okay, can it be turned off?

You can do whatever you want with it, it's Linux after all.
Here's how to add a Start menu (http://wiki.eeeuser.com/howto:icewmstartmenu#enabling_the_icewm_start_menu _in_easy_mode).

In my personal life, I find it impossible to dismiss windows entirely. Therefore "I think" it's impossible to NOT use Windows, is still a valid statement, for myself.

It's not at all valid.
You just haven't progressed far enough along your path to enlightenment yet.
Give it time and eventually you'll reach Linux nirvana.

[aysiu]

impossible and infinitely improbable just aren't relevant terms in this discussion.

You either use Windows or you don't use Windows. If you want to leave Windows, you need to find programs that are not Windows-only, and if you can't find those programs, then you're stuck with Windows.

It doesn't have to do with possibility or probability. It's just something people figure out for themselves on a case-by-case basis.

[blackxored]

Well, I've been using Linux for more than 5 years now. I haven't needed to use a Windows machine for most situations. Even those tricky ones. So, improvement in free software is done in a daily basis. Maybe if you help your preferred distro about topics you would like improvement into, then your time will be more appreciated by us.
Sincerely.

[Shibblet]

No Rickrolling was never funny.

Then you don't have a sense of humor.

impossible and infinitely improbable just aren't relevant terms in this discussion.

Sheese! Fine! It's a 95% probability that you will have to use Windows. Making it IMPOSSIBLE for 95% of the PC users out there.

Well, I've been using Linux for more than 5 years now. I haven't needed to use a Windows machine for most situations. Even those tricky ones. So, improvement in free software is done in a daily basis. Maybe if you help your preferred distro about topics you would like improvement into, then your time will be more appreciated by us.
Sincerely.

I have. I've even done some brainstorming...
I try to help people in the forum as much as I can, especially with things that I have learned by trial and error.

[abhiroopb]

I appreaciate yor opinion, but I have have been using Ubuntu for about a year now without Windows.

When I first installed Ubuntu about 4 years ago I would dual-boot with windows, mainly for photoshop and my iPod.

Now I have got my iPod working with Amarok, and I no longer require photoshop, so I don't have Windows installed nor do I use virtualbox or any other vm software. However, I do like some windows-only games (such as CS), which I use WINE to play on, and they run flawlessly.

Yes, there are times when I will get annoyed that an app does not work because I don't have Windows, but these are becoming rarer!

[aysiu]

Sheese! Fine! It's a 95% probability that you will have to use Windows. Making it IMPOSSIBLE for 95% of the PC users out there. Impossible means it can't be done. Plenty of those Windows users are able to switch to something else (Mac, Linux), but they simply don't want to or just can't be bothered to. If Windows suits their needs, and they're afraid of change or don't want to learn something new, why should they? It doesn't mean they can't use something else. It just means they won't.

That's like saying it's impossible to be vegan. Yes, the vast majority of people are not vegan and don't want to be vegan. That doesn't mean they are physically incapable of being vegan or that they'd die if they were vegan. They just can't be bothered or don't want to be vegan.

[Shibblet]

Impossible means it can't be done. Plenty of those Windows users are able to switch to something else (Mac, Linux), but they simply don't want to or just can't be bothered to. If Windows suits their needs, and they're afraid of change or don't want to learn something new, why should they? It doesn't mean they can't use something else. It just means they won't.

Correct. Nullifying the "possibility".

That's like saying it's impossible to be vegan. Yes, the vast majority of people are not vegan and don't want to be vegan. That doesn't mean they are physically incapable of being vegan or that they'd die if they were vegan. They just can't be bothered or don't want to be vegan.

There are six definitions for this word. Any one of which is acceptable. I am hightlighting #6. Please read CAREFULLY

im⋅pos⋅si⋅ble   Show IPA
–adjective
1. not possible; unable to be, exist, happen, etc.
2. unable to be done, performed, effected, etc.: an impossible assignment.
3. incapable of being true, as a rumor.
4. not to be done, endured, etc., with any degree of reason or propriety: an impossible situation.
5. utterly impracticable: an impossible plan.
[I]6. hopelessly unsuitable, difficult, or objectionable.

Everyone wants to debate the use of the flippin' word! Hopefully this will put that argument to rest.

I.E. Being vegan can be hopelessly unsuitable, difficult, or objectionable.

[MikeTheC]

It isn't impossible to "not" use Windows. It's also not impossible to "not" use a computer in this day and age. It is a simple matter of choice. And, as with all choices, there is a cost. Whether or not you care about that cost or can bear that cost is down to the individual in question.

Remember, I come to this discussion with no love of, no fond feelings for, and no loyalty to Microsoft or any of their products. I'm a Mac user who loves Linux and for various ethical and political reasons has an affinity for the F/OSS concept. As far as I'm concerned, the rest of you who want to bitch about all-things-Microsoft, that's your problem, and moreover it's one of your own making.

So no, frankly, I don't want to hear about it.

[aysiu]

5. utterly impracticable: an impossible plan.
6. hopelessly unsuitable, difficult, or objectionable.

Everyone wants to debate the use of the flippin' word! Hopefully this will put that argument to rest. It doesn't. I'm sorry. It isn't hopelessly unsuitable at all. If a Windows user wants to switch away to Mac or Linux, it isn't really difficult at all. All she has to do is be willing to shift her lifestyle slightly.

In any case, there's also a reason that is the fifth entry in the dictionary, as it is not the most common usage. Be precise with your language, and you won't end up arguing with people for hundreds of posts in a thread.

If you had started a thread that said "I depend on Windows-only applications and don't feel like switching, and a lot of people also don't want to switch from Windows," I think you would have gotten two or three responses saying "Sure. Use what works for you" and the thread would have died.

[Riverwolf]

I have not gotten through all the post here, yet. But from my position; Yes I do live in the United States. I do not use Window$ at all. I have found programs to do everything that I need(audio, video, business, and everyday messing around). Yes, sometimes it is very difficult to find exactly what you are looking for in program, or how to do it in some cases. But, I have found that the community that exist within and around Ubuntu to have been there to point me, at the very least, in the right direction. I also feel that if you are willing to put forth the effort and time to exercise your right of choice(as we all should do, especially in this day and age) that what you are needing is there, or you can become apart of the resolution of your need. Sorry if I seem a little soap boxy today.

[Shibblet]

If you had started a thread that said "I depend on Windows-only applications and don't feel like switching, and a lot of people also don't want to switch from Windows," I think you would have gotten two or three responses saying "Sure. Use what works for you" and the thread would have died.

All I'm saying is Ethan Hunt tends to do stuff that is considered Impossible.

Please understand that I said before the discussion was over.

And, yes, the discussion is over. I just was asking a general question.

See, I did say that. ;)

So I am just playing at this point. I really do appreciate the input you all have given, and I am walking away feeling enlightened.

[Ceiber Boy]

i have taken a long time and read the majority of the thread, and accessing the arguments on bot sides.

First of all i am a ubuntu user having switched from windows. In answer to the question posed, it IS absolutely possible to move from MS, the only hold back is a lack of knowledge on the part of the user as to the interaction of software, as it is possiable to program ANYTHING on linux.

Second i an glad that the majority of people use windows, as i use Linux. if the majority used linux their operating systems would be as superiour as mine and i don't want that!

[benj1]

hopelessly unsuitable, difficult, or objectionable.

sounds more like a description of windows to me :)

[Shibblet]

sounds more like a description of windows to me :)

To get away from? :)

[benj1]

To get away from? :)

no, just hopelessly unsuitable, difficult, or objectionable.

[Shibblet]

no, just hopelessly unsuitable, difficult, or objectionable.

Oh! Good thing we cleared that up! ;)

[Exciterusa]

are only number one in terms of sales and pose factor

That seems to make the case for usage factor. Whether for apple or microsoft.
http://marketshare.hitslink.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx?qprid=10
That's showing linux at less than 1% market share.
This discussion should probably be titled It's impossible for more that 1% of computer users not to use windows.

[Exciterusa]

True, as far as complete compatibility is concerned, nothing works 100%. However, Windows compatibility is in the 95 percentile with software and hardware, where Ubuntu is more like 60-70.

I don't know the "actual" percentage, but I'm pretty close.

I would like to see Ubuntu in the 90 percentile, that means better support for a better operating system.

I think that's way off. First it's really not the OS's responsibility to provide the driver for hardware. It's the manufacturer. Now with Vista out there, there's plenty of hardware that manufacturers refuse to write XP drivers for. That's why a lot of new PC's can't be downgraded to XP.
Linux does an extremely well job of supporting hardware at quite a disadvantage. Most(or maybe just a lot) of manufacturers don't provide linux drivers or source. And yet they still get hardware to work most of the time.
Otherwise how was I able to take the hdd out of that ubuntu box, hook it up to another computer, boot, then image the drive and reimage to a new sata drive and stick it into that nettop 100 and just boot it. It wasn't flawless, both times I had to go back and statically assign the IP. Detecting a new ethernet controller apparently makes it revert to the default of dhcp. That's about as close to perfect as you can get.

[gn2]

im⋅pos⋅si⋅ble   Show IPA
–adjective
[I]6. hopelessly unsuitable, difficult, or objectionable.

By that definition shibblet, you are impossible.

So if you are impossible, this thread cannot exist, unless it's just a bistromathics anomaly?

[Shibblet]

I think that's way off. First it's really not the OS's responsibility to provide the driver for hardware.

I would agree that it is the manufacturers responsibility to make a driver to accommodate the operating system you are using.

That also means more work for the manufactuerer to support an OS that is only in 1% of all computers. They would ask themselves, why bother? So, for the most part, the community does it.

However, if one's hardware doesn't work after an OS install, one will blame the OS.

It is the OS's responsibility to make sure your computer functions to a point where you can at least go and get the right drivers. Without at least a fuctional driver to connect to the internet, how are you going to download ANYTHING? Which is why Wi-Fi and Video Card compatibility are kept up on the most.

By that definition shibblet, you are impossible.

Dude, you need to meet my debate class professor.

[gn2]

Dude, you need to meet my debate class professor.

Sure would like to meet him, I likes a good debate I do ;)

For clarity, I would only suggest "difficult" in the definition, and not "hopelesly unsuitable" or "objectionable".
And in truth, we can all be a bit difficult from time to time.

[Shibblet]

Sure would like to meet him, I likes a good debate I do ;)

He's actually a prick. But he sure knows how to pick apart an argument.

For clarity, I would only suggest "difficult" in the definition, and not "hopelesly unsuitable" or "objectionable".
And in truth, we can all be a bit difficult from time to time.

Not me... I just don't know what you're talking about. :P

[James7]

I have used Ubuntu exclusively for two years. I used to use wine to run a couple of Windows programs, but I found a Linux version for one and I found I hadn't used the other in both of those two years, so I uninstalled wine.

I can't see why I'd need anything from Windows or wine at all anymore.

[Therion]

"Argue for your limitations, and sure enough they're yours."

[papenpj]

More often that not the reason people won't switch is they are lazy or get screwed by a large entity, in my case my university went to Office 2007, so I needed it on my computer to be able to deal with professors and have exact copies of what they sent me because OpenOffice is great but M$ doesn't want to make it easy to not use them.

Now that I have graduated I plan on migrating more to linux because Im having trouble finding any reason to really use windows. The main programs I use on windows are Firefox and Pidgin, and it just a matter of copying their data from windows to Linux and having a seamless transfer.

And the lazy aspect is also people won't take the time to find similar programs that completely free for linux users. and yeah I guess their special cases where certain indivuals need some specialized windows only program that doesn't quite run in wine.

[Shibblet]

Since the dawning of this post, I have seen more and more reasons as to why a home based user could get by, pretty easily, without using Windows.

But there are still too many commercial pieces of software that are written exclusively for the Windows platform. I can speak of several in the commercial printing industry.

At home, I have done everything I could to stay away from Windows on my Vista machine... a couple of things keep pulling me back. Primarily my iPhone, and iTunes. Secondly would be if I feel like playing a game.

It hasn't happened in a while, but there are a few that I own that are only for Windows. Getting Wine to run certain programs can be difficult.

So all in all, I think it is possible to NOT use Windows, but you have to be willing to give up certain software. In my life, it's an impracticality, due to the need for certain proprietary software. i.e. Roland ColoRIP to run my Vinyl Printer / Cutter

[Screwdriver0815]

So all in all, I think it is possible to NOT use Windows, but you have to be willing to give up certain software
I found at least equal or even better replacements for the software I need to accomplish my tasks in Linux.
I don't have any Windows computer at home.

[Shibblet]

Do you work for the media? Quote the whole paragraph, so that I won't be taken out of context.

So all in all, I think it is possible to NOT use Windows, but you have to be willing to give up certain software. In my life, it's an impracticality, due to the need for certain proprietary software. i.e. Roland ColoRIP to run my Vinyl Printer / Cutter

I found at least equal or even better replacements for the software I need to accomplish my tasks in Linux.
I don't have any Windows computer at home.

I've found some better replacements on a lot of programs that I run also. However, there is no replacement for certain programs.

i.e. iTunes (for the iPhone).
Vista Media Center (to run my Media Center Extender DMA2100.)

Granted, if I had bought other equipment, I wouldn't have this problem. We all know hindsight is 20/20.

[Screwdriver0815]

Do you work for the media? Quote the whole paragraph, so that I won't be taken out of context.

I've found some better replacements on a lot of programs that I run also. However, there is no replacement for certain programs.

i.e. iTunes (for the iPhone).
Vista Media Center (to run my Media Center Extender DMA2100.)

Granted, if I had bought other equipment, I wouldn't have this problem. We all know hindsight is 20/20.
nope, I don't work for the media.

If you would have written "I have to be willing to give up certain software...." then you would not have to complain that my quote was taken out of context.

When you write "you have to be willing to give up certain software" this means to me that I also have to give up... which is not true. Thats why I stated that I found all the replacements and lots more for accomplishing my tasks. Which is true - in any context.

[Shibblet]

nope, I don't work for the media.

If you would have written "I have to be willing to give up certain software...." then you would not have to complain that my quote was taken out of context.

When you write "you have to be willing to give up certain software" this means to me that I also have to give up... which is not true. Thats why I stated that I found all the replacements and lots more for accomplishing my tasks. Which is true - in any context.

Oh my god.

[Ojustaboo]

I disagree... how is it that EA can release a PC, Xbox 360, PS3, and Wii version of the same game all at the same time if they didn't have to all be built platform specific? That question is rhetorical, I know how, so it can't take that long to make a Linux version as well.

I suspect that as far as the 360, PS3 and Wii are concerned, MS, Sony and Nintendo send development hardware (and software) to the games companies that's designed to run on Windows PC's.

All have a huge customer base, saying that Activision recently threatened to drop PS3 and PSP support as the cost of developing for that format was too high compared to the user base.

I imagine it would cost quite a bit to have a Linux version developed alongside? Then you have the support issues, the fact that you will need different packages for different Linux distros etc.

[Ojustaboo]

But these days it simply doesn't have to.


Trouble is, yes it does (well for the vast majority of businesses)

If I run a business and am trying to get clients to use my business, I have to make sure I have the market leader in software available to make sure they pick me and not my competitors.

If a client emails me a document created on the latest version of MS office, I have to be able to read it. That means from a business point of view, if I want to be sure of their custom, I had better make sure I have the latest version to be able to open and read the document.

Yes in theory I could run my business using just Linux but in reality unless my business was the sort of business where I just had one or two PC's for internal things and was never sent things from clients etc, the reality would be I need a windows PC and windows software to compete with my competitors.

[Shibblet]

Trouble is, yes it does (well for the vast majority of businesses)

If I run a business and am trying to get clients to use my business, I have to make sure I have the market leader in software available to make sure they pick me and not my competitors.

If a client emails me a document created on the latest version of MS office, I have to be able to read it. That means from a business point of view, if I want to be sure of their custom, I had better make sure I have the latest version to be able to open and read the document.

Yes in theory I could run my business using just Linux but in reality unless my business was the sort of business where I just had one or two PC's for internal things and was never sent things from clients etc, the reality would be I need a windows PC and windows software to compete with my competitors.

I agree. It'd be equivalent to shooting yourself in the foot. You can still walk along, but what a pain!

[Divider]

By using Linux.

by not being lambs to the slaughter of w0rms.

[reyfer]

Yes in theory I could run my business using just Linux but in reality unless my business was the sort of business where I just had one or two PC's for internal things and was never sent things from clients etc, the reality would be I need a windows PC and windows software to compete with my competitors.

Sorry, but I run my bussiness, 15 PCs, all running Linux (Debian and Kubuntu), I'm sent stuff from my clients, I send stuff to them, and I am very well placed among my competitors, and there is NO Windows OS in the office. Just in case, it is an Eco-adventure travel business, and happily enough I have found no problem in connecting with the reservation systems that are supposed to "need" Windows to run :)

If I run a business and am trying to get clients to use my business, I have to make sure I have the market leader in software available to make sure they pick me and not my competitors.And all this time I thought it was the originality and quality in service that got me my clients...should have known they come for the software I use :(

[Shibblet]

And all this time I thought it was the originality and quality in service that got me my clients...should have known they come for the software I use :(

Originality can be damned if you can't actually assist a client.

I've been working in the quick print industry for over 15 years. If a customer brings in a Microsoft Publisher file, or Corel Draw, or Word Perfect, or MS Word, etc. etc. , I NEED to be able to print it. As well as not fart around trying to get open source software to read it, then worry about the formatting, cross compatibility, etc. Regardless of version, or if the customer can "turn" it into a PDF.

Keep in mind most people don't care to know how to operate a computer. They just want the service done. And in this industry, saying "Sorry, we just don't have it." means that they go to another shop that does.

[praveesh]

It is POSSIBLE to get away from windows in home computer ; if you are not a gamer . I'm not sure about an enterprise . If an enterprise need to use a software which is only available in windows and that doesn't has a PERFECT open source alternative, they are forced to use windows . Any how , you should have a look at this (http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm) article. Read it completely . It may be useful.

[praveesh]

The electricity board in my state (Kerala) doesn't use windows . They run Ubuntu and a free software developed by themselves named oruma . But it is worth to mention that the employees never used any other software other than oruma earlier. (actually the first time I heard the name Ubuntu is from a magazine of electricity board employees association. Then I googled and found it)

[Ojustaboo]

Sorry, but I run my bussiness, 15 PCs, all running Linux (Debian and Kubuntu), I'm sent stuff from my clients, I send stuff to them, and I am very well placed among my competitors, and there is NO Windows OS in the office. Just in case, it is an Eco-adventure travel business, and happily enough I have found no problem in connecting with the reservation systems that are supposed to "need" Windows to run :)

And all this time I thought it was the originality and quality in service that got me my clients...should have known they come for the software I use :(


I don't disagree with you. In an ideal world I would 100% agree with you. But we don't live in an ideal world.

I've seen bosses spend thousands upgrading from office 95 to office 97 etc when their users are not going to use any of the newer available functions. Ask them why, they want to be seen at the leading edge of high tech with the latest and greatest kit, hence in their eyes and their customers, a company that hasn't got the market leading bit of software, isn't a market leader themselves.

I agree it's a very very stupid way of thinking, but many many still think like this.

It also depends on what your business is. If I was running a business where the majority of my clients that were sending me data etc were using say macs, I would make sure my business was equipped with macs running the same software. Same as if most of my clients were using say Adobe Photoshop. I could try and use Gimp then send back the results, but it would make proper business sence for me to also have Photoshop .

Doesn't stop me running Linux and using Gimp etc, just that if I'm earning big money off of my clients, not having 100% compatible gear simply doesn't make sense. For example, one of my clients comes into my office with a CS4 file and wants to load it up and go through something with me. Do you really think they are going to be impressed if I say they have to use GIMP?

[Shibblet]

It also depends on what your business is. If I was running a business where the majority of my clients that were sending me data etc were using say macs, I would make sure my business was equipped with macs running the same software. Same as if most of my clients were using say Adobe Photoshop. I could try and use Gimp then send back the results, but it would make proper business sence for me to also have Photoshop.

Absolutely, from a business standpoint. Gimp does read photoshop files, and can export in a number of formats. But does it export to Photoshop CS2, CS3, or CS4 format? JPEG sure, but does the client need a flattened image (no layers). What if the client needs a specific Photoshop Font.

That's just one customer. And ever client is different. From a business standpoint, why make the situation difficult, when owning a copy of Photoshop just simplifies the whole deal?

Doesn't stop me running Linux and using Gimp etc, just that if I'm earning big money off of my clients, not having 100% compatible gear simply doesn't make sense. For example, one of my clients comes into my office with a CS4 file and wants to load it up and go through something with me. Do you really think they are going to be impressed if I say they have to use GIMP?

Not to mention the limitation of hardware. We recently purchased a Roland SolJet Pro II. This is a spectacular machine, but alas, no Linux drivers or RIP software.

So I will ask, why deprive myself of a commercial machine that can make our business a lot of money, just to not have windows? That's not just dumb, from a business standpoint, it's impossible.

[arcdrag]

This is a thread asking what can be done to TRULY create an operating system that the entire industry can use (and utilize), and one that would be formidable toward OSX and Windows in the current market.


The idea of Linux isn't to create an OS that is perfect for the entire industry. The idea of Linux is to create an OS that gives the user the power to make things exactly how they want it.

Windows has a very different philosophy. Their goal is to create something that is "good enough" for anybody without having to change any settings whatsoever. This is the reason that Linux will never own a double digit percentage of the market share. There just aren't that many people that care enough about their Operating System to do the work to take it from being acceptable, to being custom made specifically to fit their needs. In computer science its called "satisficing"...and most people are perfectly fine with it.

[monsterstack]

The idea of Linux isn't to create an OS that is perfect for the entire industry. The idea of Linux is to create an OS that gives the user the power to make things exactly how they want it.

Windows has a very different philosophy. Their goal is to create something that is "good enough" for anybody without having to change any settings whatsoever. This is the reason that Linux will never own a double digit percentage of the market share. There just aren't that many people that care enough about their Operating System to do the work to take it from being acceptable, to being custom made specifically to fit their needs. In computer science its called "satisficing"...and most people are perfectly fine with it.

That's all fine and dandy, but there are plenty of distributions that work perfectly fine out of the box. In fact, most of them do. Some even come with all of the restricted stuff installed out of the box too. There are many reasons why Linux has a tiny share of usage figures, but "You can change the way it works" is not one of them.

[philcamlin]

too bad ubuntu didnt come on top in te pc battle but were climbing the charts because nvidia recognised us as a major part in the pc industry so ...:popcorn::popcorn:

i hsve to use windows at school :(:(

i have ubuntu at home !! :)

[arcdrag]

Originality can be damned if you can't actually assist a client.

I've been working in the quick print industry for over 15 years. If a customer brings in a Microsoft Publisher file, or Corel Draw, or Word Perfect, or MS Word, etc. etc. , I NEED to be able to print it. As well as not fart around trying to get open source software to read it, then worry about the formatting, cross compatibility, etc. Regardless of version, or if the customer can "turn" it into a PDF.

Keep in mind most people don't care to know how to operate a computer. They just want the service done. And in this industry, saying "Sorry, we just don't have it." means that they go to another shop that does.

You're a very specialized case...and it is indeed probably impossible for your business to go "Windows free" anytime in the near future (if ever). However, saying that its impossible for anyone to do it is just silly. Hell, even saying that its a hassle for most people to go without windows is pretty silly.

[arcdrag]

That's all fine and dandy, but there are plenty of distributions that work perfectly fine out of the box. In fact, most of them do. Some even come with all of the restricted stuff installed out of the box too. There are many reasons why Linux has a tiny share of usage figures, but "You can change the way it works" is not one of them.

I'm sorry if that's what I came off as saying. Satisficing means that you're satisfied with the way you've always done things so you don't bother looking for an alternative, even if there's a better one available.

[reyfer]

Sorry, this thread is about the OP saying it is impossible to NOT use Windows. In my post, I proved that for me, for the past 3 years in my home and 2 years in my job, it has been possible to do it. Now, is it possible to everybody? Not yet, but to say it is impossible, making generalizations, is wrong

[Shibblet]

So... Is this a thread about generalizations, or being specific? If you people are going to jump my case for generalizations, then lay off the "specific" nature of the title. If you people are going to focus on the specifics, then leave the generalizations alone.

Geez! The thread started with "I think", and I still "think" that's the case.

Are we just going to argue over the way something was worded? Or would you like to take the higher ground and talk about better ways to get around the problem?

I think (there are those words again) in order to move forward, we need to find better solutions for windows based users. What can be done to assist with this epidemic?

[kmrs75]

we have 3 computers - all linux - 2 have been linux for 1.5 years the last one was windows becouse of vinyl cutting software. but a guy in canada made a program to cut vinyl from linux we have been doing alot of testing for him and it works GREAT - its diffrent than flexi or other cutting software that is offered in windows but after we understood how to use it we love it. my wife now doesnt ever want to go back to windows she doesnt want to use flexi ever again. its easy and simple. you design in inkscape and cut - we love it

so that 3rd pc has been changed to linux about 3 months ago and were very happy we have never looked back so were 100% linux ubuntu -

http://www.securetech-ns.ca/camm-linux.html

[Psumi]

I haven't used windows in months.

[oldos2er]

I haven't used Windows since 1993.

[Psumi]

I haven't used Windows since 1993.

http://i41.tinypic.com/nlxz82.png

[NightwishFan]

I wiped Vista around 2007. I have been using various open source operating systems since then. They are quite sufficient for my needs and grow more so day by day. I find it so easy to rely on Open Source because I would find being cornered by proprietary software an affront. I am just glad my line of work does not involve computers.

[Shibblet]

This thread was resurrected from the dead. Odd that it's Easter Sunday... just a coincidence.

I still have a copy of Windows on my computer. Need it for playing games. If I didn't play games on my PC, there'd be no reason for it.

On my work PC, there is still no Linux based proprietary RIP software for my Roland Vinyl Printer / Cutter. I had someone tell me about a version that was available, but it won't work.

[abhiroopb]

As the thread has been resurrected, I thought I would update my opinion:

A while back I said the following on this thread:



I appreaciate yor opinion, but I have have been using Ubuntu for about a year now without Windows.

When I first installed Ubuntu about 4 years ago I would dual-boot with windows, mainly for photoshop and my iPod.

Now I have got my iPod working with Amarok, and I no longer require photoshop, so I don't have Windows installed nor do I use virtualbox or any other vm software. However, I do like some windows-only games (such as CS), which I use WINE to play on, and they run flawlessly.

Yes, there are times when I will get annoyed that an app does not work because I don't have Windows, but these are becoming rarer!


Recently, I purchased a desktop (http://www.techcomet.com/p/my-gadgets.html) and after much deliberation I found that my ATI graphics card would have many problems in Ubuntu. I was advised to at least try Windows 7. I was absolutely blown away. Gone were the drab, slow, cumbersome menus of XP and the buggy drivers of Vista. I plugged in virtually any hardware (e.g. my Razer mouse, my Dell monitor, my Microsoft keyboard) and instantly the drivers were downloaded from the internet. I never had to touch my drivers CDs.

Till date I have not had a problem/crash on Windows 7. I have thought about moving back to Ubuntu, but right now other than philosophical reasons I see no benefit.

[rykel]

As the thread has been resurrected, I thought I would update my opinion:

A while back I said the following on this thread:



Recently, I purchased a desktop (http://www.techcomet.com/p/my-gadgets.html) and after much deliberation I found that my ATI graphics card would have many problems in Ubuntu. I was advised to at least try Windows 7. I was absolutely blown away. Gone were the drab, slow, cumbersome menus of XP and the buggy drivers of Vista. I plugged in virtually any hardware (e.g. my Razer mouse, my Dell monitor, my Microsoft keyboard) and instantly the drivers were downloaded from the internet. I never had to touch my drivers CDs.

Till date I have not had a problem/crash on Windows 7. I have thought about moving back to Ubuntu, but right now other than philosophical reasons I see no benefit.


Hi,

Is Windows 7 really THAT good?

I have heard people swear by it, but unfortunately, my old Toshiba with only 1GB RAM, NVIDIA GeForce Go 6600 and 60GB HDD cannot support it. 7 needs at least 25GB of space. whew!

I tried it briefly when a friend bought a new Compaq laptop, but even he downgraded it back to Windows Vista so that he could play Maple Story.

Anyway, one thing I really like about Ubuntu is that I can use the above mentioned old Toshiba to upgrade to and run the latest Ubuntu, such as Lucid, from which I am writing right now.

With all the "Bling". :lolflag:

But to keep to the original contents of this thread, yes, I agree, it is impossible to NOT use Windows.

I am currently using Windows XP for:


Installing and running VeryCD from www.verycd.com (a China version of easyMule, I think);
Watching online movies from www.Xunlei.com, which requires a small little Xunlei Windows-only program; and
Using the dialpad on my brandless Skype USB Phone which looks like the one from IPEVO (See picture).

[rudihawk]

It's entirely possible to NOT use windows. I do it everyday. Linux runs on my desktop and my netbook.

[abhiroopb]

Hi,

Is Windows 7 really THAT good?

I have heard people swear by it, but unfortunately, my old Toshiba with only 1GB RAM, NVIDIA GeForce Go 6600 and 60GB HDD cannot support it. 7 needs at least 25GB of space. whew!

I tried it briefly when a friend bought a new Compaq laptop, but even he downgraded it back to Windows Vista so that he could play Maple Story.

Anyway, one thing I really like about Ubuntu is that I can use the above mentioned old Toshiba to upgrade to and run the latest Ubuntu, such as Lucid, from which I am writing right now.

With all the "Bling". :lolflag:

But to keep to the original contents of this thread, yes, I agree, it is impossible to NOT use Windows.

I am currently using Windows XP for:


Installing and running VeryCD from www.verycd.com (a China version of easyMule, I think);
Watching online movies from www.Xunlei.com, which requires a small little Xunlei Windows-only program; and
Using the dialpad on my brandless Skype USB Phone which looks like the one from IPEVO (See picture).


In answer to your question I will give the oft-used answer yes and no.

I came to Ubuntu from XP around 2006. At the time, there was basically no AV or Firewall that worked well without eating up a ton of resources. I would have to clean out my computer almost daily and re-install everything about every 3-6 months. Added to that I basically couldn’t do anything on the computer without buying software (bear in mind, the likes of Pidgin and OpenOffice were very young back then). Freeware essentially meant terrible pieces of software.

Anyway so I moved to Ubuntu on my first laptop and then bought my second soon after and stuck to Ubuntu. There were obviously a lot of problems but over time with each new release the experience got better and better.

Mac was never an option for me and so after Vista flopped I happily stayed with Ubuntu. However, I noticed something interesting was beginning to happen. Microsoft and third party developers were starting to create wonderful Windows-only programs.

Then I purchased a desktop which required Windows for full usability (have posted in my blog…see sig).

Switching to Windows 7: The graphical interface had vastly improved. On a looks basis I would rate Windows as far superior to Ubuntu but inferior to Macs. Obviously looks aren’t everything, so after using Windows 7 for a while I’d still have to say that as a computer user it satisfies all my needs. The original problems I had with viruses are basically non-existent with Windows Firewall and Microsoft Security Essentials (both free). Virtually all apps work in Windows (what I mean is I can use apps I used in Ubuntu in Windows now) and I can try out a number of new apps. In addition apps like Skype which never worked well in Ubuntu work perfectly in Windows 7.

So, yes in my opinion it is that good. Having said that it is still a closed proprietary system and this may be a major issue for many people. If it is a issue for you obviously you should steer clear. From a practical perspective, Windows now “just works” and I don’t have the time (as I did before) to play around with Ubuntu, so for the time being I am content.

I just bought a netbook with an Atom processor 1GB ram and 320GB hd which came with Windows 7. I did post about any alternatives but after using it for a month, while it is clearly slower than my desktop it works fine. The only major difference is that the netbook uses Windows 7 Starter which lacks Aero.

One final note: If you are heavy skype user I would definitely recommend you get this skype phone (http://arstechnica.com/hardware/reviews/2007/05/linksys-cit-400-a-skype-phone-without-os-limits.ars) which does not require dependence on any OS or even a computer for that matter.

[Rondonjin]

Haven't used Windows since 1994. Only purchased one copy since then but not by choice, it came with an IBM Thinkpad. The HD quickly got formatted and the restore disk made a fair frisbee :lolflag:

I usually build my own PCs or have them made by small companies that offer Windows free machines

[ndefontenay]

It's hard to migrate to linux when you started entangling yourself with proprietary software.

The french gendarmerie (Kind of military police) has switched 90000 machines to ubuntu from windows in a very short span. everything just worked. It was thanks to its IT manager. The guy had a clear vision and made a politic of using only open technologies regardless if it's on windows or not. Making sure he wouldn't be tied to Microsoft when he wants to change.

As a personal user, I gave my touch ipod to my sister. I will buy an audio device when I see one fully compatible with linux.

I don't need windows, I made it a choice of life.

[Shibblet]

It's hard to migrate to linux when you started entangling yourself with proprietary software.

I like the choice of words. "Entangling".

See, here is the main point of the thread, and it still holds up almost a year later. You're saying "entangling" like it's something that can be avoided.

It can be avoided, but at what cost?

Prime example. I have a PC, it came with Windows 7, I have Ubuntu on it also. Now, a new PC game came out, let's just say Resident Evil 5. Do I just avoid the game? Or do I buy it and play it in Windows?

I could get the X-Box Version, but then I'd have to buy an X-Box 360 for $200.00, or a PS3 for $300.00. Seems kind of dumb when I already have the equipment to play it.

Second example. I have a Roland SolJet SC-540EX Vinyl Printer / Cutter. The RIP software is Windows ONLY. Do I avoid buying such a nice machine that will benefit my business in the long run? Or do I just get a machine with XP on it, and go about running my machine? Wait... I know! I could futz with Wine for hours on end and try endlessly to get this program to work, and probably strike out.

So, I've said it before, it's not "Impossible" to stay away from Windows, but the probability is VERY VERY high.

The FOSS idea is "Freedom of Choice", it's the cornerstone of Linux. Freedom to choose what you want, not limited by...

[rykel]

... In addition apps like Skype which never worked well in Ubuntu work perfectly in Windows 7...

One final note: If you are heavy skype user I would definitely recommend you get this skype phone (http://arstechnica.com/hardware/reviews/2007/05/linksys-cit-400-a-skype-phone-without-os-limits.ars) which does not require dependence on any OS or even a computer for that matter.

Hi there, that was a truly valid and good experience you had with Windows 7. The nice thing about our world today is that one need NOT choose Windows or Linux, but can dual boot or run one inside the other as a virtual machine.

If only Windows 7 does not take up so much space just for the basic install, that would be perfect!

Anyway, Skype for Linux 2.0 has been improved, and it does use the SILK codec in conjunction with Pulseaudio, not to mention full-screen sharing, so you might want to try it out again in Ubuntu Karmic or Lucid. Obviously, Skype Linux is not Skype Windows, so the GUI is more straightforward. I do like the Windows interface, but Skype being Skype, I am OK with the Linux interface too.

As for the Linksys Skype phone, it looks really good. However, another alternative exists for those of you who want to use Skype wirelessly. Just grab your iPhone, Nokia (Symbian) or Android, install the relevant Skype version, and you are already using Skype without your PC! ):P

I use my Nokia E63 Skype while moving about in the house (Wifi) and even on the streets (3G), on the roads, at the beach, in the car, everywhere. The stability and reliability is 90% or more most of the time.

Once Skype implements iNum (http://bit.ly/howtoinum) and the telcos here start to connect to iNum (http://bit.ly/howtoinum) (Sign up for iNum here --> iNum (http://bit.ly/myinum)), then I can retire my mobile phone SIM card into the Hall of History altogether.

[Artificial Intelligence]

I've been windows free since 2004 (I used both windows and Linux from 2000-2004).

It's not difficult to live without windows :popcorn:

[mcoleman44]

Using windows was like being tied to a ball and chain. I like freedom. I like Ubuntu.

[mamamia88]

for my general use i see no real reason to use windows unless i was a pc gamer. i don't do anything more than surfing the web, listening to music, or typing a paper. all of these i can accomplish in ubuntu just fine.

[sixstorm]

for my general use i see no real reason to use windows unless i was a pc gamer. i don't do anything more than surfing the web, listening to music, or typing a paper. all of these i can accomplish in ubuntu just fine.

Like I've always said, if I ever stopped gaming, I would be 95% Ubuntu. I work on Windows all day so no need for any kinds of Windows fix. ;)

[Brandel Valico]

It's not impossible to NOT use windows. I only use it for one program in a VM. I do so because the program makes a certain task I deal with at least once a month easier and faster to do. But I could do this same task with a pen and paper. Or if I wasn't so lazy and had the skill to do so. I could write a program to do the same task in Linux.

As so many have proven it's not impossible personally or professionally to not use Windows. Heck some Governments are doing so now.

The problem with the logic I see in this question is this. It's just as impossible to NOT use Linux or Mac IF you use a computer on the internet.

The only way to avoid using something made for one of them somewhere along the line is to become Amish-like. (I doubt even that would ensure you never do so.)

But heck people didn't use Windows before the 1960's on back till the dawn of time. So it's CERTAINLY possible to NOT use it. Inconvenient awkward and a hassle perhaps. But thinking it's not possible is flawed logic.

"Air" is perhaps the one thing I might accept as logical to use in that sort of statement.

[Shibblet]

"Air" is perhaps the one thing I might accept as logical to use in that sort of statement.

If you read earlier in the thread, you'll see that the absolute definition of the word impossible is all people want to argue with.

This statement is used the same way a person who hasn't eaten all day says that "They're starving." They're clearly not "starving". They just want something to eat.

If you want refinement, it would be "I think it's NEARLY impossible to stay away from Windows."

Whereas personally, I feel it's an operating system that is necessary, but only because there is no alternative that runs all of Windows applications correctly. If there were, then it truly would be possible.

I can get some of my PC games to run in Wine, but they still look and perform better in Windows.

[NightwishFan]

Linux is not Windows, BSD is not Windows, Open Solaris is not Windows. They are not meant to utilize Windows software. Rightfully so. It seems that the countless volunteers and free software advocates up to the businesses that support us have not made a clone of Microsoft that you do not have to pay for. The day open source becomes Windows is the day I sell all my hardware.

I have no need for Windows software, and never will.

[chappajar]

I don't use Windows for anything.

[Dayofswords]

i play monopoly on windows
while windows has a monopoly
:P

[WinterMadness]

if you gotoschool for computers, or work with computers, you will use windows.

[souravjha]

I seriously need a plugin for rhythmbox to sync my iPod with. I hate to return to windows to do it. Sadly, but true, I do need to go back to Windows.

[Shibblet]

I don't use Windows for anything.

I am slightly intrigued. What do you do for a living? Does it involve working on a computer that you do not own?

I'm not saying that you can't keep it off of your personal computer. That's simple. But what happens when you need to help a friend out with his computer. What happens when you go to a coffee shop, and just need to check your email?

Uh-oh, here come all the arguments for the word "use".

[NightwishFan]

If I do not use a Windows computer for an entire year will you give me $250 US Dollars?

[Shibblet]

If I do not use a Windows computer for an entire year will you give me $250 US Dollars?

Obviously not. You really want those 3000 beans, don't you?

I will challenge anyone this.

Over the course of a year, watch how many times the use of "Windows" will actually come up in your life. Whether it's helping a friend on their computer, playing a game, anything. I mean, Windows has 90% market-share, it's integrated into society.

You may not have it on your home and/or personal computer, but you will end up using it at some point. XBox-360 users, this means you. ;)

[NightwishFan]

Shibblet I was just joking with you however I do see your point. On the flip side, as was mentioned it is nearly impossible to not use Linux either. Google... Embedded electronics.. etc. There is a place for everything, and I am fine with that. If there was only one unified OS things would be less interesting.

Edit: I could get 3,000 by tonight if I wanted. ;) I am taking a break and posting in the CC.

[sudo-i]

While I can see that living without windows on your personal machines is possible and kudos to those of you who do, but unless software developers purposely start coding in cross platform languages those of us who do use alternative OSs are up the creek.

With the successful release of Windows 7 (it was a complete code rewrite and thus the reason it is working so well) and how it is "just working" for so many people, I expect even more software developers to focus solely on the Windows platform. This does sadden me as I am falling for Karmic Koala. I've successfully install it on 4 machines, with only minor issues. The development team is really bringing Ubuntu forward into the edges of the spotlight.

And an aside to abhiroopb (http://ubuntuforums.org/member.php?u=92445) your post (and blog entry) on the comparison and transition to Windows 7 was enlightening.

[Shibblet]

While I can see that living without windows on your personal machines is possible and kudos to those of you who do, but unless software developers purposely start coding in cross platform languages those of us who do use alternative OSs are up the creek.

You know, I'm not a coder, so I'm not sure I understand completely what I am about to say ...

If you write your program in C++, wouldn't it compile for Windows just the same as it would for Linux?

[abhiroopb]

While I can see that living without windows on your personal machines is possible and kudos to those of you who do, but unless software developers purposely start coding in cross platform languages those of us who do use alternative OSs are up the creek.

With the successful release of Windows 7 (it was a complete code rewrite and thus the reason it is working so well) and how it is "just working" for so many people, I expect even more software developers to focus solely on the Windows platform. This does sadden me as I am falling for Karmic Koala. I've successfully install it on 4 machines, with only minor issues. The development team is really bringing Ubuntu forward into the edges of the spotlight.

And an aside to abhiroopb (http://ubuntuforums.org/member.php?u=92445) your post (and blog entry) on the comparison and transition to Windows 7 was enlightening.

Glad you enjoyed reading it. I fear I can get a little verbose at times!

Just thought I'd add some fire to the discussion...

What about Mac?

But seriously, at work (I am a lawyer) I HAVE TO use Windows (XP). There is no question about using anything else. Even if I thought Ubuntu is equal to windows (or much better) there are simply no substitutes for some of the programmes we have to use, such as billing software and the like.

I think what it comes down to is the applications. At the end of the day one OS is much like an other but it's up to the developers to choose to support it.

[Chronon]

if you gotoschool for computers, or work with computers, you will use windows.

That seems like a needless generalization.

[abhiroopb]

That seems like a needless generalization.

It is a generalisation, but how many schools do you know that use solely linux? I know a few that use mainly Macs but there is always a Windows PC.

Let me give you a simple example. I was IT admin at my university and I ran Linux on my work PC (we were given the ability to use whatever we wanted). I had to use VMWare to install the proprietary monitoring software but other than that I used OpenOffice and the general set of open source software. Anyway I was sent an excel file. I can't remember what was specifically on it or what configuration it was in but it refused to open in Ubuntu and I had to rush over to a colleagues XP terminal.

Windows does have it's own share of problems, for example I have Office 2007 and it defaults to the docx format which older versions of Office do not support. Anyway that is not really the point of this thread. The question is can you live without Windows...yes, but you will have to use it once in a while.

[NightHawk877]

I miss MediaMonkey. That's why I find it impossible to completely ditch Windows. There isn't a media player like it for Linux as far as I know.

[abhiroopb]

I miss MediaMonkey. That's why I find it impossible to completely ditch Windows. There isn't a media player like it for Linux as far as I know.

Try Amarok.

Rhythmbox is like iTunes (lack of features).