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racoq
June 6th, 2009, 02:58 PM
I think that boycott novell is pure garbage.

Do anyone even relies on it's information? since it only spreads FUD and Conspiracy theory's IMHO. I wonder myself how some articles are sometimes the most digged (on Digg).

Also this site gives bad name to the Linux comunity, giving an image that our comunity are a bunch of radicals and software "terrorists" who want to plant a Bomb on Redmond.

Am i the only one who thinks this way about this website?

DeadSuperHero
June 6th, 2009, 03:21 PM
Linsux.org has an ongoing vendetta against Schestowitz and his cronies at BN. Their extreme views and yellow journalism are a huge burden on the whole FOSS community.

Dimitriid
June 6th, 2009, 03:23 PM
An opinion is given power in direct correlation to the atention you place on it. Best thing to do would make a point to let people know we pretend they do not exist.

jonathanysp
June 6th, 2009, 03:28 PM
kinda newbie here...can anyone explain to me why some people hate novell so much? what did they do? oh and also mono?

DeadSuperHero
June 6th, 2009, 03:31 PM
kinda newbie here...can anyone explain to me why some people hate novell so much? what did they do? oh and also mono?

Well, this thread is about the site "Boycott Novell" an exceedingly alarmist journalist site that has little basis for truth or facts in order to scare anyone that uses Microsoft technologies.

Novell is looked down upon by some people by striking up a contract with Microsoft that allowed them to use certain Microsoft technologies in their linux distribution, OpenSuSE. One of those technologies is Mono, a programming language based on Microsoft's .NET framework.

Personally, I have no qualms with Novell.

NFblaze
June 6th, 2009, 03:31 PM
Fight Fire with Fire.


Im not bothered by them, although I have only read 2 of their articles. Mainly the one about Mono moving onto the Linux platform and how it could possibly hurt it, and some other one. The mono article had a little conspiracy, but its kinda well documented already what Microsoft's intentions in the past have been when it comes to competing technologies. Maybe you just didnt like the prose and tone of certain articles. Well, dont patronize the site, or round it out with an opposing viewpoint. Its obviously doesnt support your positions.

For example I go to TorrentFreak. Its views are generally skewed for support for p2p. They are very much more informed about the innerworking of bt technology then comparative mainstream media.

NFblaze
June 6th, 2009, 03:31 PM
# accidental double post.

DeadSuperHero
June 6th, 2009, 03:32 PM
NFBlaze made a post so nice, he posted it twice.

rookcifer
June 6th, 2009, 03:32 PM
Although I think what M$ did to Novell amounts essentially to a protection racket, I still think a lot of what "boycott novell" says is simply inaccurate as has been proven time and again.

So, I agree with their sentiment but can't condone shoddy reporting and flat out lies that comes from that site so often.

directhex
June 6th, 2009, 04:21 PM
Absolutely no comment. (http://www2.apebox.org/wordpress/linux/51/). (http://www2.apebox.org/wordpress/linux/61/). (http://www2.apebox.org/wordpress/rants/70/). (http://www2.apebox.org/wordpress/rants/84/). (http://www2.apebox.org/wordpress/rants/90/). (http://www2.apebox.org/wordpress/rants/93/)

PuddingKnife
June 6th, 2009, 04:47 PM
Although I think what Microsoft did to Novell amounts essentially to a protection racket, I still think a lot of what "boycott novell" says is simply inaccurate as has been proven time and again.

So, I agree with their sentiment but can't condone shoddy reporting and flat out lies that comes from that site so often.



fixed.

Name change
June 6th, 2009, 04:55 PM
I personally think that Novell - Microsoft "pact" was made to improve Linux, to make it more usable for normal user. But hey that's just me and that's my opinion which isn't backed by any research at all...
I just don't see any reason why mono shouldn't be a part of Linux as well.
The way I see it it's just a "imported" .net implementation so that apps can be developed with multi-platform in mind. So in the end for me it seems that mono is increasing FOSS competitiveness against other platforms.
.net is similar to Qt in this instance, I personally don't really use mono apps at all, but I see no reason why they shouldn't be developed and used. If devs like the .net and mono they should use it, and if they prefer Qt they should use it instead.
I don't know about Gtk that's why i don't mention it.

Swarms
June 6th, 2009, 05:01 PM
I have met one person who thought it was wellwritten journalism, was funny.

swoll1980
June 6th, 2009, 05:46 PM
Although I think what M$ did to Novell amounts essentially to a protection racket.

Essentially? I would say exactly. What Microsoft did to Novell was text book extortion. The Mafia couldn't have done it better themselves. I'm not mad at Novell. Some people are born with a spine, some are not.

gnomeuser
June 6th, 2009, 07:00 PM
Essentially? I would say exactly. What Microsoft did to Novell was text book extortion. The Mafia couldn't have done it better themselves. I'm not mad at Novell. Some people are born with a spine, some are not.

Not as much a shakedown as one would think, Novell also holds some valuable patents on Groupwise that they could get a decent payout for if they had sued Microsoft. The natural outcome of that though would be a countersuit, and vice virsa if Microsoft had tried to squeeze money out of Novell by suing them with any number of patents they hold. The wide ranging consequences of such action on everyone would be true horror, I think they sought a peaceful way and creating relations instead of attempting a walk down that dangerous path.

In that sense I think Microsoft, Novell and both communities came out better for the deal. Microsoft now has a much greater understanding of how the Linux community works, how to interact with us and thanks to Novell staying in a close working relationship they have a means of learning how to turn their business around where it is possible for them.

Linux on the whole got a kinder more pleasant Microsoft that releases code under OSI approved licences, we got specifications for a number of their standards under very reasonable terms. Most of all I think we got a Microsoft who is on a path that is generally thought to be the "right" one.

racoq
June 6th, 2009, 09:52 PM
Linsux.org has an ongoing vendetta against Schestowitz and his cronies at BN. Their extreme views and yellow journalism are a huge burden on the whole FOSS community.

Indeed.... I couldn't agree more

I find hard to imagine how a single person can do such a damage to a big commubity as the FOSS.

There are people i wish would not be FOSS advocates or even part of this community.

MikeTheC
June 6th, 2009, 10:02 PM
Also this site gives bad name to the Linux comunity, giving an image that our comunity are a bunch of radicals and software "terrorists" who want to plant a Bomb on Redmond.
Meh. A bomb would be too good for them. And while I might not shed a tear if Microsoft suddenly burned to the ground (assuming no actual loss of life or anything like that) I honestly and earnestly feel the better approach is to simply let Microsoft be Microsoft, the rest of the tech industry be the rest of the tech industry, and hopefully MS will continue to fall flat on their face.

Let them be the means of their own destruction. At least Microsoft can serve some useful purpose for the rest of us.

directhex
June 6th, 2009, 10:03 PM
Indeed.... I couldn't agree more

I find hard to imagine how a single person can do such a damage to a big commubity as the FOSS.

There are people i wish would not be FOSS advocates or even part of this community.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Thompson_(attorney)

ViperChief
June 7th, 2009, 12:38 AM
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Novell did nothing wrong. Novell did not buy SuSE because of ideological reasons. They bought it because they saw it as a chance to make some money. They are a corporate entity. They had their reasons for making an agreement with Microsoft. So what? Do people really think that Novell was so stupid that they didn't know what they were getting into? Novell has been around for a while. They've dealt with Microsoft for a while and know their games. They know what they're doing.

They didn't betray Linux, or GNU or the community. They did what was in the best interests of the company and the shareholders. And it worked. Just nine months after the agreement, Novell made over $100 million in revenue, and they credited the Microsoft partnership for that. The partnership made money for Novell.

Interoperability. Mono and Moonlight are proof that the Novell-Microsoft partnership is nurturing interoperability. If the community ever wants Linux on the desktop, this interoperability is required. Joe Bob doesn't care if Linux is FOSS or anything like that, he cares if it's going to work with crap he's already got or wants to get. Overall, the Novell-MS deal was not bad.

Then you get BN. Well, I don't know what to even say about them. I just laugh at how stupid it gets over there. For those who want to criticize Novell, stop holding them to your ideological standards. That's not what they're in the business for (i.e. FOSS/Linux). They're in the business to make money.

MikeTheC
June 7th, 2009, 01:06 AM
Then you get BN. Well, I don't know what to even say about them. I just laugh at how stupid it gets over there. For those who want to criticize Novell, stop holding them to your ideological standards. That's not what they're in the business for (i.e. FOSS/Linux). They're in the business to make money.
Novell has been around a while, and so have I.

Novell is not a perfect company by any means, but I don't have anything in particular against them. More importantly, Novell is no Microsoft.

Business ethics is extremely important. I understand that businesses are in business to make money, but there are right ways and wrong ways of going about it. From what I see, I don't believe Novell did anything ethically wrong in what they did. They represent in a sense what Linux is all about: diversity of approach and plurality of options. I hope that Novell is able to bring something to Linux by way of SuSE. It could potentially be a boon to us all.

Eclipse.
June 7th, 2009, 02:17 AM
Linsux.org has an ongoing vendetta against Schestowitz and his cronies at BN. Their extreme views and yellow journalism are a huge burden on the whole FOSS community.

Linsux has a vendetta against linux in general, and in particular even this forum.

DeadSuperHero
June 7th, 2009, 02:24 AM
Linsux has a vendetta against linux in general, and in particular even this forum.

Actually, if you'd spend five minutes to read any of our stickied posts, we've got nothing against Linux distributions, just the overly-zealous users who think they're clever for adding $ to Microsoft.

Icehuck
June 7th, 2009, 02:48 AM
Linsux has a vendetta against linux in general, and in particular even this forum.

I take it you just guessed or read a post or two without actually exploring the site.

starcannon
June 7th, 2009, 02:54 AM
Actually, if you'd spend five minutes to read any of our stickied posts, we've got nothing against Linux distributions, just the overly-zealous users who think they're clever for adding $ to Microsoft.
Exactly how does one measure zeal?
Do you have a scientific method?
A meter?
Do you do a one time sample of a person, or do you take an average zeal count out of all their posts?
I have been to their forums, I have spent an entire evening reading though it. I see nothing there but 4channers that enjoy going out and wreaking havoc on various distribution forums.
linsux does much more than just heckle people for using a $ in their Microsoft posts. I have seen its users rally for "intelligent discussion", and when presented with it, they either ignore a poster, or pick apart grammar, they never seem to actually reciprocate in an intelligent exchange.
Personally I wish the mods would just shut their threads down; their threads are neither constructive, nor useful.

An example of Mr. Psychopath's musings at the linsux forums, do not click if you are offended by illicit language. http://linsux.org/index.php/topic,1163.0.html

3rdalbum
June 7th, 2009, 03:56 AM
Boycott Novell actually did the opposite of what it intended to do.

Rather than draw focus on the real wrongs of Microsoft and the real unresolved issues around Moonlight's licensing, they instead flooded news channels like FSDaily with all manner of sensationalist tripe based on non-stories.

As a result, people are now more sceptical of stories about Moonlight licensing and possible legal problems with Mono, because they've come to associate anti-Mono with the FUD spread by BoycottNovell.

On FSDaily, people got so sick of BoycottNovell that they started posting pro-SUSE articles.

I don't think BoycottNovell has such wide coverage that anyone outside the FOSS community really notices its existence, so I don't think it harms the image of FOSS. But it certainly harms the efforts to take a look at Microsoft's open-source licensing. It makes the people investigating these issues look like a bunch of cranks!

"Vista is not secure. It is a Big Lie. It was proven by scientists." - BoycottNovell.

DeadSuperHero
June 7th, 2009, 04:30 AM
Exactly how does one measure zeal?
An example of Mr. Psychopath's musings at the linsux forums, do not click if you are offended by illicit language. http://linsux.org/index.php/topic,1163.0.html

To be entirely, absolutely fair: my post has no profanity in it whatsoever. Yes, it hints at transgenderism, but technically speaking it's just an old play on the joke that only sweaty nerds use Linux. Female linux users are few and far between, hence the joke.

If you can't keep up with our complicated (and I'll admit vulgar) humor, then don't bother visiting.

monsterstack
June 7th, 2009, 05:47 AM
I think Roy is sensationalist, and a bit paranoid. Still I keep boycottnovell in my reader because he does aggregate lots of things that are relevant to the free software community, which no one can really deny. As soon as you start to think about the place not as a series of opinionated rants and more of a news aggregation site, it's possible to find some useful stuff there. Having intellectual integrity means you can read stuff you passionately disagree with without it distorting your view of things. And anyway, I think Roy is crazy enough that he'd carry on writing even if his site had no hits at all, so it wouldn't make a difference if I deleted the feed.

@3rdalbum: It was boycottnovell that brought the Mono thing to my attention. You know what I did? I came here and had an interesting discussion with our very own directhex. I'm pretty much ambivalent about Mono after that (Jo isn't an idiot, and wouldn't develop for Linux in a language if it was meant to destroy Linux!), though I'm still sceptical of the Silverlight/Moonlight stuff. The world is slowly but surely moving to open standards on the web, and I think the Silverlight stuff is a giant step backwards for achieving that, however much good it can do in the short-term. Google's Wave and HTML5 is the sort of thing we should be striving for, not just another proprietary media solution with an open copycat constantly playing catch-up. The web was envisioned and designed to be open and for everybody from end to end, and I think it behoves us to try and continue that noble tradition. That's real inter-operability.

Giant Speck
June 7th, 2009, 06:04 AM
Do you think you guys can stop the whole Linsux argument and get back on topic, please?

szlend
June 7th, 2009, 11:29 AM
Websites like BoycottNovell make me lose faith in the FOSS community. They fight propaganda with even worse propaganda. I tried to kindly explain to them how their articles are FUD but instead of trying to discuss they just classified me as a troll. Basically, they classify everyone who opposes them as a Microsoft troll pretending to use GNU/Linux. I'm not saying Microsoft isn't doing bad things but the way BN writes their articles is pure FUD and only hurts the community.


FUD is generally a strategic attempt to influence public perception by disseminating negative information designed to undermine the credibility of their beliefs.

ParanoidMetroid
June 7th, 2009, 11:41 AM
I tried to kindly explain to them how their articles are FUD but instead of trying to discuss they just classified me as a troll. Basically, they classify everyone who opposes them as a Microsoft troll pretending to use GNU/Linux.

Reminds me of slashdot.org. Although in fairness, I have found boycott novell occasionally useful, provided I remember to double check their "facts".

szlend
June 7th, 2009, 12:07 PM
Reminds me of slashdot.org. Although in fairness, I have found boycott novell occasionally useful, provided I remember to double check their "facts".
Yeah, I agree that some articles were useful and informing. But most of them just attack Microsoft for no reason and is therefor a bad example to the FOSS community. Since a lot of their articles come up on Digg, most people think the Linux community is a bunch of Microsoft haters.

Also, most of their fans think they're clever for replacing S with $ in MS. Just check out their IRC channel.

mr.propre
June 7th, 2009, 12:13 PM
*Was on the "Novell action day" last week.

Learn to think out of the box.

3rdalbum
June 7th, 2009, 12:22 PM
I tried to kindly explain to them how their articles are FUD but instead of trying to discuss they just classified me as a troll. Basically, they classify everyone who opposes them as a Microsoft troll pretending to use GNU/Linux.

Did they put you onto the "Credibility Index" page of their site, with a rating of 1/5? That page smacks of McCarthyism and communist witch hunts... except this time it's Microsoft witch hunts!

frankhevans
June 7th, 2009, 12:39 PM
Funny thing is, I had never heard of mono until I read about it on boycottnovell. Now I use it all the time. By raising awareness they are actually promoting mono. Thanks Roy, for showing me the light...

szlend
June 7th, 2009, 12:44 PM
Did they put you onto the "Credibility Index" page of their site, with a rating of 1/5? That page smacks of McCarthyism and communist witch hunts... except this time it's Microsoft witch hunts!
Haha, they should have. Their "Credibility Index" page is pure gold! :D

Edit: Apparently, Fox News is more credible than CNN.

directhex
June 7th, 2009, 12:48 PM
Haha, they should have. Their "Credibility Index" page is pure gold! :D

Edit: Apparently, Fox News is more credible than CNN.

CNN have "vested interests" in Microsoft, and don't promote Free Software. Or something like that.

Sadly, somehow I haven't ended up on the list :(

alternatealias
June 8th, 2009, 12:54 AM
Boycott Novell actually did the opposite of what it intended to do.

Rather than draw focus on the real wrongs of Microsoft and the real unresolved issues around Moonlight's licensing, they instead flooded news channels like FSDaily with all manner of sensationalist tripe based on non-stories.

As a result, people are now more sceptical of stories about Moonlight licensing and possible legal problems with Mono, because they've come to associate anti-Mono with the FUD spread by BoycottNovell.

On FSDaily, people got so sick of BoycottNovell that they started posting pro-SUSE articles.

I don't think BoycottNovell has such wide coverage that anyone outside the FOSS community really notices its existence, so I don't think it harms the image of FOSS. But it certainly harms the efforts to take a look at Microsoft's open-source licensing. It makes the people investigating these issues look like a bunch of cranks!

"Vista is not secure. It is a Big Lie. It was proven by scientists." - BoycottNovell.

+1

I think you hit the nail on the head. Just ignore the BN trolls like you would any other trolls.

froggyswamp
June 9th, 2009, 06:14 AM
+1

I think you hit the nail on the head. Just ignore the BN trolls like you would any other trolls.
Look who's talking!

http://boycottnovell.com/2008/08/21/mono-guard-alternatealias/

gnomeuser
June 9th, 2009, 08:22 AM
CNN have "vested interests" in Microsoft, and don't promote Free Software. Or something like that.

Sadly, somehow I haven't ended up on the list :(

Why settle for getting on the list. Personally I want the list named after me, The David Nielsen hall of shame.

Aim for the stars.

directhex
June 9th, 2009, 09:22 AM
Why settle for getting on the list. Personally I want the list named after me, The David Nielsen hall of shame.

Aim for the stars.

Dude, you get zero coverage over there. I'm this close |-------------| to getting my own badly GIMP'd image, like Miguel!

alternatealias
June 9th, 2009, 12:07 PM
Look who's talking!

http://boycottnovell.com/2008/08/21/mono-guard-alternatealias/

Yea, that's pretty funny. Attacking me because his friend Neighborlee lost an argument with me on these forums, so he went crying back to Roy who posted that to discredit me.

If you haven't figured it out yet, that's their modus operandi. They personally attack people to make themselves feel important.

directhex
June 9th, 2009, 12:18 PM
Yea, that's pretty funny. Attacking me because his friend Neighborlee lost an argument with me on these forums, so he went crying back to Roy who posted that to discredit me.

If you haven't figured it out yet, that's their modus operandi. They personally attack people to make themselves feel important.

Here's an even better one - life imitates art:
http://www2.apebox.org/wordpress/rants/121/
hours later...
http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/09/mono-critique-for-ubuntu/

alternatealias
June 9th, 2009, 02:30 PM
Here's an even better one - life imitates art:
http://www2.apebox.org/wordpress/rants/121/
hours later...
http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/09/mono-critique-for-ubuntu/

Good to see that Roy Schestowitz has a firm grasp on reality</sarcasm>

dspari1
June 11th, 2009, 01:34 PM
OpenSuSe is one of the best distros out there, and their Microsoft deal hasn't hurt Linux as it was predicted to and many distros are including Mono.

Giant Speck
June 11th, 2009, 01:48 PM
Mr. Shitzforwitz is HORRIBLE at web design.

directhex
June 11th, 2009, 02:28 PM
Mr. Shitzforwitz is HORRIBLE at web design.

Web design is on his CV, and he insists that it's supposed to look like that

adrianx
June 11th, 2009, 02:41 PM
I think Roy is sensationalist, and a bit paranoid. Still I keep boycottnovell in my reader because he does aggregate lots of things that are relevant to the free software community, which no one can really deny. As soon as you start to think about the place not as a series of opinionated rants and more of a news aggregation site, it's possible to find some useful stuff there. Having intellectual integrity means you can read stuff you passionately disagree with without it distorting your view of things. And anyway, I think Roy is crazy enough that he'd carry on writing even if his site had no hits at all, so it wouldn't make a difference if I deleted the feed.

@3rdalbum: It was boycottnovell that brought the Mono thing to my attention. You know what I did? I came here and had an interesting discussion with our very own directhex. I'm pretty much ambivalent about Mono after that (Jo isn't an idiot, and wouldn't develop for Linux in a language if it was meant to destroy Linux!), though I'm still sceptical of the Silverlight/Moonlight stuff. The world is slowly but surely moving to open standards on the web, and I think the Silverlight stuff is a giant step backwards for achieving that, however much good it can do in the short-term. Google's Wave and HTML5 is the sort of thing we should be striving for, not just another proprietary media solution with an open copycat constantly playing catch-up. The web was envisioned and designed to be open and for everybody from end to end, and I think it behoves us to try and continue that noble tradition. That's real inter-operability.
This sums up how I feel about inter-operability. ;)

Dragonbite
July 6th, 2009, 04:08 PM
Look who's talking!

http://boycottnovell.com/2008/08/21/mono-guard-alternatealias/


Dude, you get zero coverage over there. I'm this close |-------------| to getting my own badly GIMP'd image, like Miguel!

Wow! I feel like I'm talking with celebrities!! Woo Hoo! Can I have your autographs?! :lolflag:


OpenSuSe is one of the best distros out there, and their Microsoft deal hasn't hurt Linux as it was predicted to and many distros are including Mono.

Heck, all this mono talk got me into installing openSUSE Gnome which includes almost all of the Mono goodies (Tomboy, Banshee, F-Spot, Gnome-Do and Beagle) just to make sure my frame of reference is still correct. Surprised Banshee played MP3s out of the box!

Ultimately, the whole Mono fear is summed up with "It's your move, Microsoft". People are afraid of what they don't understand/know or cannot predict. Kinda like having some big guy raising his arm over you and you don't know if he's going to slap-you-down or is just scratching his back.

But until then, no sense walking around afraid.

One great thing about it, though, is that even if Microsoft pursues the Mono route it won't stop Linux; Red Hat will benefit from any Canonical/Novell companies that want to get out of the way, giving Linux time to retool and pull out whatever is necessary just as they are from what was revealed in the TomTom suit.

frankhevans
July 29th, 2009, 11:53 PM
The conspiracy goes much deeper than we thought. Roy is actually in Microsoft's pocket, spreading FUDD about microsoft, to make FOSS look bad.

In fact, have you ever seen Roy Schestowitz and Ballmer in the same room? Same person...

DeadSuperHero
July 30th, 2009, 12:11 AM
The conspiracy goes much deeper than we thought. Roy is actually in Microsoft's pocket, spreading FUDD about microsoft, to make FOSS look bad.


Can you prove this? This would make huge news, and would set the FOSS community back into complete order if that were the case.

ghindo
July 30th, 2009, 12:12 AM
Web design is on his CV, and he insists that it's supposed to look like thatThat's unfortunate.

ghindo
July 30th, 2009, 12:12 AM
Can you prove this? This would make huge news, and would set the FOSS community back into complete order if that were the case.I think he was being sarcastic...

hanzomon4
July 30th, 2009, 01:03 AM
CNN have "vested interests" in Microsoft, and don't promote Free Software. Or something like that.

Sadly, somehow I haven't ended up on the list :(

But the magic wall runs Linux

windows-killer
July 30th, 2009, 01:32 AM
I think that boycott novell is pure garbage.

Do anyone even relies on it's information? since it only spreads FUD and Conspiracy theory's IMHO. I wonder myself how some articles are sometimes the most digged (on Digg).

Also this site gives bad name to the Linux comunity, giving an image that our comunity are a bunch of radicals and software "terrorists" who want to plant a Bomb on Redmond.

Am i the only one who thinks this way about this website?

thats what every Linux user does, no?