Interesting blog about Linux on desktops

[DerMika]

Hello,

I wasn't sure where to post this, but here comes an interesting blog about what is "wrong with" linux, what prevents it from being a widely accepted Destop OS

http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/asa/archives/008499.html

Maybe you guys can use some of it ;)

[ember]

I read this and I can only partly agree - the migration aspect is important, that's correct. But somehow I get the impression that he wants to go even further than the Gnome guys. I don't think only 3 preferences in gedit were a good idea - because if gedit became like notepad, it would be equally unusable.

[DerMika]

Well i don't agree completely either with him. But the most interesting about his post i found the migration part. Just like firefox has an import wizard to copy IE settings, Linux should have an import filter to copy as much as possible the application settings, and automatically install dual boot next to windows and start some kind of "migration wizard" to get the user's files from windows and put them on the linux partition. Although Ubuntu is already on this way, i think it can still improve.

[meborc]

my neck hair raises when i hear stories about making linux look like (act like... work like...) windows... i moved away from windows to experience something different... something good... the author of this post has not really understood, that the windows way is not always the best way...

i agree with some minor points, but for that big one... well... i still feel my hair going up :rolleyes:

[DerMika]

my neck hair raises when i hear stories about making linux look like (act like... work like...) windows... i moved away from windows to experience something different... something good... the author of this post has not really understood, that the windows way is not always the best way...

i agree with some minor points, but for that big one... well... i still feel my hair going up :rolleyes:Yeah well the notepad thing is not the point for me. I was mainly talking about the migration wizard. What do you think about that?

[az]

Issue one: "For "Regular People" to adopt Linux (which usually means leaving Windows) Linux is going to need a serious migration plan. It will need to install on machines next to Window, leaving that completely intact and easy to return to, and carry over all or nearly all of the user's data and settings"

I guess I agree. Ubuntu dual-boots by default it there is another os detected. As for carrying over data and settings, I am not so sure. I think there should be a concerted effort to help desktop users migrate, but the onus is on the community surrounding the distribution to do that, not the distro itself, to a certain degree.

I don't think the problem is that the linux desktops are different from the windows one. It's fine the way it is.


Issue two:
" user should be able to install Fedora Core 4 and go grab the latest Firefox release from Download.com and have it work without the need for finding and installing compat-libstdc++ or whatever"

That's wrong. Most people do not care what version of their browser they are running. The only time they would need to update it is when something newer is needed to get something running. Again, they should get the whole kit and kaboodle from their distributor, and not willy-nilly from the net.

There are many advantages to a centralised repository. The advantages of a stable API are not without costs, and these advantages are not that compelling.

This is after all open source software. This is not binary-only software.


Issue three:
"The third issue is a lack of simplicity. Just because you can include a feature doesn't mean that you should"

By default, ubuntu handles this issue. It is a simple desktop.

"The final major issue is comfort. Linux must feel comfortable to Windows users"

No. I don't think it should be "out there" and completely different for the sake of being different, but there is no reason why it has to be identical. There is a freedom to innovate on the linux desktop.

I think if a user is going to switch, the expectation is that it is going to be different.

[Lord Illidan]

Yeah well the notepad thing is not the point for me. I was mainly talking about the migration wizard. What do you think about that?

The first issue, migration, is pretty serious. For "Regular People" to adopt Linux (which usually means leaving Windows) Linux is going to need a serious migration plan. It will need to install on machines next to Window, leaving that completely intact and easy to return to, and carry over all or nearly all of the user's data and settings. Regular People may be willing to take a look at Linux, but as long as all of their data and settings still lives in Windows, they're not going to stay very long -- no matter how appealing it might be. We learned this lesson in the Mozilla world. It wasn't until we implemented a very capable migration system in Firefox, which carried over the user's IE favorites, cookies, history, passwords, etc. that Regular People started moving over in serious numbers -- and staying (and bringing others over.) Linux needs to do the same. It's clearly a much bigger task for an entire OS and all of its major applications to accomplish, but it simply has to be done. When Regular People fire up the Linux desktop for the first time, the browser, office suite, email client, IM client, file manager, etc, each need to carry over as much as possible of the Windows application settings and all or very nearly all of the user data. Without this, the hill is just too steep to climb and Regular People will not make the climb.


I agree up to a point. However, I wonder how many application settings you can get? Thunderbird and firefox settings, maybe, but office suite? Open Office is very different from MS Word. And konqueror/Nautilus are also different from Explorer.
The data can be copied, but again, I would prefer to have some control over it, not let all the data be copied willy nilly.
And about the hill being too steep to climb, well, I am a regular person and I made it, with some effort, I don't see why others cannot!

[DerMika]

There can be lots of Linux distro's, there should at least be one that tries to make it as easy as humanly possible to migrate windows users to linux. Even the "regular users".

[DerMika]

I agree up to a point. However, I wonder how many application settings you can get? Thunderbird and firefox settings, maybe, but office suite? Open Office is very different from MS Word. And konqueror/Nautilus are also different from Explorer.
The data can be copied, but again, I would prefer to have some control over it, not let all the data be copied willy nilly.
And about the hill being too steep to climb, well, I am a regular person and I made it, with some effort, I don't see why others cannot!That's why they call it a wizard ;)

The user can take the "default" route or the "advanced" route and can migrate what he wants. If he takes the "default" route, everything which can be migrated should be migrated.

[meborc]

i guess i am not the avarage user then... because i really don't care much for bootmarks or whatever settings it would be possible to import... although just 6 months ago i was a windows activist in the sence that i hated opensource and everything that went with it... and i managed to open my eyes and make the leap... i made it based on curiosity and values... and i have never looked back...

i think all that migration talk is ... well... i'm not going to use the word :D ... if people are switching/jumping/climbing, then they will expect a change (like stated before) and i don't see why the developers should (instead of developing the essential of a distro) spend months and months to make ALL the programs compatable with ALL the programs in linux and make somekind of a miracle program that exports all my preferences to linux... (i know that it is only browser webmail IM etc... but if you would see my xp box, then you would understand that it is impossible thing to do...) :rolleyes:

if it doesn't itch - don't scratch

[nocturn]

I read this and I can only partly agree - the migration aspect is important, that's correct. But somehow I get the impression that he wants to go even further than the Gnome guys. I don't think only 3 preferences in gedit were a good idea - because if gedit became like notepad, it would be equally unusable.

Indeed. Notepad cannot handle large files, it has no syntax highlighting, it is nothing.

Gedit tends to be usefull to both novices and average users, notepad is not.

When I get a windows machine (like at work), I install gvim on it to edit files.

[ember]

I think the assumption may hold that the avarage linux newbie that switches from Windows has worked with Firefox/Thunderbird and OpenOffice before. At least that is what I have observed with my friends.
Therefore it may be helpful to provide just searching and copying accout-data/emails/addressbooks as well as bookmarks and OpenOffice setting at installation time.
Anything else will require very much time - I don't think it's fun getting settings out of MS Office.

@nocturn:
Have a look at Notepad2 - it can replace Notepad and offers some more functions + it can handle large files. It will surely never match (g)vim, but it is of help for smaller tasks.

[nocturn]

Anything else will require very much time - I don't think it's fun getting settings out of MS Office.


And it would take time away from developers who could be improving the Desktop or write device drivers.


@nocturn:
Have a look at Notepad2 - it can replace Notepad and offers some more functions + it can handle large files. It will surely never match (g)vim, but it is of help for smaller tasks.

I know there are alternatives, but many people stick to what comes with their computer/OS. In windows this is notepad, which is useless.
At least Gedit has some functionality and handles files quite well...

I fitted my windows laptop at work with gvim, FireFox, Gaim and even bash to get it to perform part of the tasks a fresh Ubuntu install can handle.

[hillbilly]

For one thing the philosophies behind linux and windows are completely different. The moot point over here is that, linux is not a replacement, but an alternative. And so I dont agree about the migration point. For one thing, to migrate data of an application in an OS to another OS is frankly in my opinion a waste of effort. For one thing, the applications by themselves would have some import/export functionality that can be used to carry fwd the settings from one OS to another. And next about carry fwding the system settings from one OS to another, that doesnt sound very viable or sensible either. Linux is not a clone, when we install linux the settings that might look good on it, most probably would not be a windows setting. It atleast enables the user to fool around and arrive at an appropriate setting.

I agree about the installation part of it though. Its not every computer user that can master the kernel. Installation of an application should be straightforward affair. I guess this would be a major reason for most people to give up on linux.

And I also agree about the plethora of programs. Well the upside about this is variety. And we certainly can unistall all the other apps that we dont want.

And about OS comfort, well linux and windows are poles apart. CLI is a weapon in Linux, in windows it looks like as if it was added as an afterthought. And consider the "highlights" of the next version of Windows. They are promising a "shell" :D. So suppose if windows does add that shell, how many people would be comfortable with it ? The peopl who use linux of course or any OS with a CLI.

I have always believed in being able to pick and choose. And before linux, there was no other choice other than windows,i.e. atleast for the average user. So more than anything linux gives us a choice, and since this choice is very affordable and robust its a bonus :D !

So i guess linux will stay on the desktop of those people who are comfortable with it. Simple ;) !

[earobinson]

Hello,

I wasn't sure where to post this, but here comes an interesting blog about what is "wrong with" linux, what prevents it from being a widely accepted Destop OS

http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/asa/archives/008499.html

Maybe you guys can use some of it ;)
This should have been in the community chat since it is not talking about dapper really and it is not a support issue, it is just general linux chat. No wories I have msged a mod and it will be moved.

Intresting read all the same!

[drfalkor]

I tought linux already was "user frendly"( it is for me).
Why would the "regular user" switch to linux, if it is a "regular user"? and linux(linus) has no wishes to replace windows, linux was "born" to give people a choise .

(correct me, If I'm wrong)

[leech]

I think it's funny that there is even a comparison to gedit and notepad. Gedit should be more compared to wordpad. Notepad would be more compared to... sticky notes :D That's exactly what I use notepad for. It's just sticky notes are a lot more useful for that.

The only thing that should even be attempted as a migration would be the My Documents folder and the email from Outlook or whatever program.

Settings shouldn't (and really couldn't) be migrated. As stated before, they don't exactly translate from program to program (Something like Firefox and Thunderbird would work of course 'cause they're cross platform).

Pretty much all these articles that say linux isn't ready for the desktop are crap. Some of them have decent ideas, but for the most part they are just fluff. They only prove one thing, that Linux isn't ready for the writer's desktop.

Now let me point out an article I wrote (which probably due to the title, OSNews has decided not to post). http://thefnords.org/wordpress/?p=4

This shows for me, that Windows isn't ready for the desktop :D

Leech