An open letter to the linux community

[JayRott]

I address you all today with one important Linux matter. Not everyone is an uber geek. I am by no means an expert in the ways of Ubuntu, however I am not a newbie either. There seems to be an attitude with software that it has to be the hard way or no way. That kind of attitude will keep Ubuntu from ever overtaking Microsoft. I find my self keeping that blasted piece of bloat they call Windows just to save my butt when I can't find a piece of linux software to do what I want. This whole rant comes from the lack of a WYSIWYG html editor (please don't mention Nvu, or Kompozer as it is called now... it just quits randomly, but that is another hair-pulling rant.) After hours of searching for one, all I came across was html editors with no WYSIWYG interface. I came across a post stating something to the effect that most linux users are geeks and therefore prefer to hand code html. Now, I can hand code html all day if I wanted to, but you can't tell me it isn't easier and faster to make a table WYSIWYG style.

Keep in mind that this post isn't really about the html editor (not that I wouldn't take a suggestion or two,) but the lack of thought for the regular Joe involving software. I really have no problem with the command line, as long as I have a guide to kind of get me through, but there are many out there that don't want to venture into the world of the text based terminal. I am not a programmer, or I would be on the front lines helping the cause. I am not educated in those skills, but I am asking all of those who are, let's think of everything that needs a linux alternative and make one that is BETTER than it's Windows counterpart. Please don't forget the newbie struggling to check his email... or the web designer that just doesn't have all damned day to enter hundreds of lines of code when he could do the **** with dreamweaver in about 15 minutes.

P.S. could someone please make a damned DVD video converter/editor that burns a DVD that will actually play on my DVD player!

[spiderbatdad]

well..I'm using bluefish, and find it satisfactory.
regarding rant...please consider the software is free.

[bodhi.zazen]

Moved to the cafe.

To be honest IMO Ubuntu is as easy to use as Windows. I see "geeky" windows problems all the time (Vista has difficulty connecting to the wireless access point at the local library for example and, no there is no point and click solution). Window aslo has a registry and I do not see many windows users making registry edits on a daily basis. There are many many windows issues to which there is no point and click solution.

I would caution you not to confuse familiarity with ease of use or a WYSIWYG html editor with an operationg system.

[pwnst*r]

regarding rant...please consider the software is free.

it's interesting to read a post like this, then posts from users saying that linux is ready for the corporate world (desktops).

[ELD]

I used to think like you about coding but i find it far easier to do it by hand, wysiwyg editors never work properly anyway, you need to take into account different browsers rendering engines, dreamweaver only shows you one way to see it.

And as far as i know, all of my web designer friends code using code view, never the wysiwyg view either. Since being a web designer generally means using a lot of css,html,xhtml etc etc they would need to code.

Also this really does just seem like a rant about an editor, thats all i really get from it.

[gn2]

I found that Kompozer quit regularly using 8.10, but works fine with 8.04 which is one of the reasons I'm still using 8.04.

[gamblor01]

To be honest IMO Ubuntu is as easy to use as Windows. I see "geeky" windows problems all the time (Vista has difficulty connecting to the wireless access point at the local library for example and, no there is no point and click solution). Window aslo has a registry and I do not see many windows users making registry edits on a daily basis. There are many many windows issues to which there is no point and click solution.
Agreed! I get phone calls from my parents all the time asking me how to do things in Windows. Just the other day my uncle was at my parents' house and couldn't connect to the wireless network -- so they called me. Their desktop system is also slowly dying so my dad told me the other day "When you're not busy I want you to call me and walk me through how to backup all of our files." Yes you read that correctly -- my parents have no idea how to burn files to a CD in Windows (though I have already shown this to them at least twice).

You think Windows is easy to use because you have been using it for so long, but if you were to truly remember that first time that you used Windows, you would realize that you were not immediately an expert either. There are plenty of people out there who are not Windows experts (see above paragraph).

I think Linux only seems difficult to you because you are not used to it, and you are having a hard time finding applications to replace the ones you rely on in Windows. If you keep trying, I promise you will find the solutions you need, but it does often take some patience.

Finally, Linux has made some amazing strides, even in the past year or two in regard to usability. Certainly in the past 8 years or so (since I first started using Linux) there have been some amazing advancements. There have been massive improvements and they will continue to come but you need to give it time. Most of the programs offered in Linux are open-source and the developers write the code in their spare time because they enjoy it. The majority of people out there do not get paid to develop the Linux kernel, Linux device drivers, and/or Linux applications.

However, the Linux community needs people like you to stand up to companies and let them know you want Linux support. Posting here likely isn't going to change much (except maybe make you feel a little better to rant ;) ), but going to software vendors like Adobe and telling them you want them to write applications that run on Linux (such as Dreamweaver) *can* help change things. If enough people request applications to run on Linux and companies realize there is a market for it, then they do usually start releasing applications for Linux. It all takes time though.

Best of luck and keep running Linux!


P.S. Maybe you want to check out Wine? You can get the installation instructions for Wine from www.winehq.org (http://www.winehq.org) and then I would advise you to check out this post as well as any other hits that come up from a google search such as "wine install dreamweaver":

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=200305

[spiderbatdad]

it's interesting to read a post like this, then posts from users saying that linux is ready for the corporate world (desktops).

Linux has been part of corporate environments for quite some time...consider Enterprise servers. Of course entreprise use in the form of desktop environments have paid support available.

[pwnst*r]

Linux has been part of corporate environments for quite some time...consider Enterprise servers. Of course entreprise editions come with paid support.

maybe you didn't read the "desktop" part. i know very well about linux and servers in the corporate world.

[brntoki]

It's just the way it is. As a decidedly non-geek user myself, I can do everything I need in Ubuntu. If, however, I were in your shoes where there was an app that just didn't have an acceptable Linux counterpart I would just boot Windows when needed. It's a couple extra minutes out of your life, not the end of the world.

Wine won't run Dreamweaver? How about running XP from within Linux for the occasions you need it? If it's primarily for WYSIWYG html stuff it shouldn't, presumably, be too power demanding.

[spiderbatdad]

The fact that linux and Unix have had a hard time competing in corporate environments for desktop purposes is not suprising considering anti-trust suits against MS surrounding APIs, etc.

[pwnst*r]

The fact that linux and Unix have had a hard time competing in corporate environments for desktop purposes is not suprising considering anti-trust suits against MS surrounding APIs, etc.

"what do you expect, it's free" does not equate in a corporate world. i'd rather pay money knowing i will get full support when needed.

[BuffaloX]

Hello JayRott

I perfectly understand your frustration.
However the examples you are giving have nothing to do with Linux as an OS, but the level of application support for Linux.

The only popular WYSIWYG HTML editor I know of is Dreamweaver, which unfortunately is not available for Linux, the people you should bug about that are ADOBE.

I know the people over at winehq.org are working their butts off to make Adobe CS work with WINE, but since I don't use Adobe products, I'm unaware of the level of success.

I actually thought the DVD stuff worked, I'm sure you could get help for that in the multimedia section of these forums.

[spiderbatdad]

"what do you expect, it's free" does not equate in a corporate world. i'd rather pay money knowing i will get full support when needed.

Canonical provides paid support to the corporate world.http://www.canonical.com/services

[pwnst*r]

Canonical provides paid support to the corporate world.http://www.canonical.com/services

i am aware that you can get paid support through them, my comment on the "well it's free, what do you expect" comment stands.

[DLG102282]

i am aware that you can get paid support through them, my comment on the "well it's free, what do you expect" comment stands.
It might stand, but it makes no sense.

[richg]

I am not a geek, just a former Windows user, last used about four years ago.

The Rant in the first post has been around for a couple or more years. Nothing new. Sometimes called a voice crying in the wilderness.

Linux is evolving, Change is inevitable, struggle is an option.

Five years ago when I started with Linux I realized I have to keep Cheese around to go with my Whine. It has made things a lot easier. Rants only raise your blood pressure.

Rich

[pwnst*r]

It might stand, but it makes no sense.

"so what happened that halted production for an hour, costing us $75k?"

"well <software> was throwing error messages, but we are diligently working on it. besides, it's free software"

"wtf"

just because you can get canonical support, doesn't mean it's per application, which in turn makes the selection of software that would do the job an even shorter list.

makes sense now? kthx.

[spiderbatdad]

i am aware that you can get paid support through them, my comment on the "well it's free, what do you expect" comment stands.

If I inadvertently came off that way, it was unintended. My comment was..."I use bluefish and find it satisfactory...regarding rant...please consider the software is free."
The intention was not to make excuses where none are needed, but rather suggest, in the context of a user-community-help-forum, please don't rant about your disatisfaction...you paid nothing for the software, nor contributed to the development. Linux doesn't have to satisfy anyone other than the individual user. Absolutist thinking like linux has to be capable of displacing some other OS is counterproductive to the sense of community from which it developed.

[sloggerkhan]

but you can't tell me it isn't easier and faster to make a table WYSIWYG style.


Ditch the tables already. Use CSS.

[Eisenwinter]

yeah yeah... this "rant" has been made 100s of times before, nobody cares, move on.

[ELD]

Ditch the tables already. Use CSS.

+1 to that, css looks a lot cleaner code wise and makes things much easier to manage. Any "web developer" who is actually serious will know that and not use tables for design.

[linsux]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quanta_Plus

Try that ^^

As for DVD burning software, Nero Linux might work for you.

[pwnst*r]

yeah yeah... this "rant" has been made 100s of times before, nobody cares, move on.

you cared enough to post.

[linsux]

yeah yeah... this "rant" has been made 100s of times before, nobody cares, move on.

Just because it has been said before doesn't make it non-valid, right? And obviously if the rant has been made "100s of times" people really do care :)

[albinootje]

it's interesting to read a post like this, then posts from users saying that linux is ready for the corporate world (desktops).

I'm sure that part of the corporate world uses a CMS and outsources the initial design of the site.

[albinootje]

when he could do the **** with dreamweaver in about 15 minutes.

Contact the people who create Dreamweaver, and ask them for a Linux version, and tell them that you will pay for it, just as much as you pay for the MS-Windows version.
If they don't want that, set up a petition site to ask for DreamWeaver for Linux, and report back.

Meanwhile, try Mozilla Seamonkey's html editor.

P.S. could someone please make a damned DVD video converter/editor that burns a DVD that will actually play on my DVD player!
Please post that (nice and friendly) on http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com

[HavocXphere]

There seems to be an attitude with software that it has to be the hard way or no way.
I have yet to meet this malicious developer you speak of. In my experience they do make an effort to make everything user friendly. Whether they succeed in this is a different matter.

let's think of everything that needs a linux alternative and make one that is BETTER than it's Windows counterpart
Certainly a noble aspiration. I'm keen to hear how this will be done in practice.

Some random facts on the Dreamweaver vs Kompozer situation:

Adobe Systems (current developers of dreamweaver)
Employees: 7,173 (paid)
First version: 1997
Funding: Via 3.8 Billion revenue yearly (US Dollars)

Kompozer
Developers: 6 (part-time volunteers)
First version: 2004 (Nvu)
Funding: None

Given this situation, no amount of "Make it better" shouts or "Make it like Dreamweaver" will help. Nonetheless, I'm sure the 6 developers will welcome any practical suggestions you might have.

[JayRott]

hmmmm I think some of you are missing the point. First off, I don't think that anyone is going out of there way to screw things up for the average Joe. What I believe happens is that people forget what they did in the old days before they acquired their knowledge. I think remembering the "simple" way is hard to do when you have gotten so far.

Also, the rant made me feel better. I think that was my main concern anyway. I love my Ubuntu, it just frustrates the hell out of me when it takes me so long to get done what I want sometimes. You see, I use wine sometimes when there is no better alternative but honestly I don't want to rely on windows crap.

Oh, and to address those of you giving me hell about the "use css not tables" thing, that isn't the point, I was just giving an example. Thanks for the help though.

I want Linux to overtake Microsoft, I just think it has a long way to go until everyone can use it. I would like to see it be the OS you would put on your grandmother's computer, but still do anything a power user needs it to do. The major problem with that is the applications. It will come, but sometimes patience is not my strong point. It is difficult to go from knowing just about all there is to know in the Windows universe, to being lost in a new OS. We just need to push for everything we need, and get this OS rolling into the mainstream.

[Eisenwinter]

you cared enough to post.
yeah, I'm ashamed of that.

[SlickRick]

We just need to push for everything we need, and get this OS rolling into the mainstream.

I personally see no need for that. I'm happy using it and don't really care whether or not other people do. I got into linux because windows wouldn't work. It was more frustrating to use windows than to set up ubuntu but I did it anyway and am happy with what I've got. Every time I need an application that I used in windows, I check out the wine compatibility lists. If that fails then I dig out my old XP hard drive or use VirtualBox.

If more "average Joe" types start using linux then it would get bogged down with complaints and furthermore, people will start making viruses for it which linux isn't completely immune to as you might think. By all means, I'm not saying that people should use linux if they're not geeks but the developers are only concerned with making better software and that includes ease of use. If linux takes over the desktop market, that would only be a side-effect.

As for your html thing. I just use notepad since I'm used to that. I took one look at dreamweaver and thought to myself "This looks worse than MS frontpage" (which I was forced to use in school). Most people are happy to use what they're familiar with, as someone mentioned earlier. That's why most of the world use windows. That's simply what was given to them and they had no choice. I usually try to keep an open mind and not just stick to what I know. Maybe some day I'll try out dreamweaver or any of the other WYSIWYG editors and like them better than notepad.

P.S. If you didn't read all of that, I don't blame you. I didn't even feel like proof-reading.

[megamania]

Just because it has been said before doesn't make it non-valid, right? And obviously if the rant has been made "100s of times" people really do care :)
Exactly.

And I would add that after 5 years using only Linux, I completely agree with the OP JayRott.

I see no point in getting offended for a legitimate complaint. I see no point is saying "let's move on", because in order to move on you need to do something about a problem.
Also, comparing hard to use software to registry editing in windows seems a bit extreme to me.

Linux is not a political party, where you have to agree with the fundamentalism in order to stay in. Otherwise, let's forget the flaunted "freedom of speech" stuff.

With all due gratitude to the Linux developers, I'd like to see more people involved in less projects. This way we would have 10 great photo programs, instead of 1.000 programs each of which lacks an important feature.

That's just my personal wish, obiviously. I repeat, I only use linux so I wouldn't define myself as an anti-linux person.

[Eisenwinter]

I see no point in getting offended for a legitimate complaint. I see no point is saying "let's move on", because in order to move on you need to do something about a problem.


What problem are you talking about? Linux is not about becoming mainstream.

[Bodsda]

I want Linux to overtake Microsoft

I think a lot of people on these forums would disagree with you on that point. As an example, Virus's are written primarily for the Windows OS because it is the most widespread system, If Linux were to 'overtake' Microsoft that would make us the new target, and why would we want that?

[k2t0f12d]

I think a lot of people on these forums would disagree with you on that point. As an example, Virus's are written primarily for the Windows OS because it is the most widespread system, If Linux were to 'overtake' Microsoft that would make us the new target, and why would we want that?

I disagree with both of you. I want free software/culture to eliminate proprietary software/culture. If Micro$oft re-licensed with FSF approved terms and offer of source, Windows would be okay. PS: ...or Mac

Linux has high enough profile on the server to warrant attack, and yet it persists. I think being afraid of an increase of real threats on the Linux desktop because of widespread adoption is laughable at best.

[albinootje]

I think a lot of people on these forums would disagree with you on that point. As an example, Virus's are written primarily for the Windows OS because it is the most widespread system, If Linux were to 'overtake' Microsoft that would make us the new target, and why would we want that?

You are joking, right ? You don't want Linux to become more popular because you're afraid for viruses in Linux ?

MS-DOS and the older MS-Windows versions were a heaven for virus writers, as Microsoft provided a very fertile garden for it to grow.
And right now MS surely wants to stay friends with the big anti-virus business.

Trojan horses.. now that's something the Linux and MacOSX users have to be careful about.

[Giant Speck]

:facepalm:

[HavocXphere]

You are joking, right ? You don't want Linux to become more popular because you're afraid for viruses in Linux ?
The argument is not quite as ludicrous as you think. Firefox exploits in the wild have become increasingly popular as its marketshare increases.

That does not mean that linux should stay at 1% adoption...but the trend is there.

Nonetheless I would think FOSS is more resilient and adaptable to these threats than non-FOSS.;)

Also, the rant made me feel better.
:popcorn:

[SunnyRabbiera]

I address you all today with one important Linux matter. Not everyone is an uber geek. I am by no means an expert in the ways of Ubuntu, however I am not a newbie either. There seems to be an attitude with software that it has to be the hard way or no way. That kind of attitude will keep Ubuntu from ever overtaking Microsoft. I find my self keeping that blasted piece of bloat they call Windows just to save my butt when I can't find a piece of linux software to do what I want. This whole rant comes from the lack of a WYSIWYG html editor (please don't mention Nvu, or Kompozer as it is called now... it just quits randomly, but that is another hair-pulling rant.) After hours of searching for one, all I came across was html editors with no WYSIWYG interface. I came across a post stating something to the effect that most linux users are geeks and therefore prefer to hand code html. Now, I can hand code html all day if I wanted to, but you can't tell me it isn't easier and faster to make a table WYSIWYG style.

Keep in mind that this post isn't really about the html editor (not that I wouldn't take a suggestion or two,) but the lack of thought for the regular Joe involving software. I really have no problem with the command line, as long as I have a guide to kind of get me through, but there are many out there that don't want to venture into the world of the text based terminal. I am not a programmer, or I would be on the front lines helping the cause. I am not educated in those skills, but I am asking all of those who are, let's think of everything that needs a linux alternative and make one that is BETTER than it's Windows counterpart. Please don't forget the newbie struggling to check his email... or the web designer that just doesn't have all damned day to enter hundreds of lines of code when he could do the **** with dreamweaver in about 15 minutes.

P.S. could someone please make a damned DVD video converter/editor that burns a DVD that will actually play on my DVD player!

Well the WYSIWYG thing yeh Kompozer/NVU is pretty much dead but its not really our fault.
NVU got closed off because of all the controversy of Linspires software policies, and Kompozer its successor seems to have been frozen in time.
Who knows developing it anymore, its dead in the water though.

As for a DVD recorder, DeVeDe seems to work for me, it converts what you need to a .iso and you can burn that iso with brasero.
Perhaps there is a error with your burning speed, your issues might be more related to hardware then software herer but its hard to be sure when you did not list your exact issues with burning DVD's/

As for the initial rant, well you could have just asked for help all along, thats why we have community support :D

[stwschool]

+1 to that, css looks a lot cleaner code wise and makes things much easier to manage. Any "web developer" who is actually serious will know that and not use tables for design.
I'll add another in favour of CSS. I use CSS wherever possible for a number of reasons. 1 is the basic idea of separating design and content. It really does make life easier. Another is search engine optimisation. It makes clean, tidy code that's really easy on the spiders. Another is accessibility. Good CSS-driven code can flow in a fashion that helps text-readers and of course allowing switchable stylesheets lets the visually impaired choose a style more to their liking (including different colour schemes for dyslexics). Last but not least, it lets your website be used on a wider range of devices. Any old crappy browser will render a page full of Div tags (it might not be pretty but it'll render) but old phones and tables just don't go well. Learn to hand code, you'll understand why when your sites are 1029029209209 times better for it.

[pbpersson]

My HTML needs are very low - just posting a few photographs for friends and family.

In the old days in Windows I used Netscape Composer and now I use Mozilla Seamonkey Composer which is exactly the same thing.

IMO Linux is better than Windows so it should have software that is better, stronger, and faster than Windows.

Time is money and I don't believe that everyone who uses Linux wants to do everything by hand the old fashioned way if an automated method is available.

[Bodsda]

Time is money and I don't believe that everyone who uses Linux wants to do everything by hand the old fashioned way if an automated method is available.

I dont blame people who dont want to have to do it all by hand, but only if they 'can' do it by hand. If you automate everything for people no one will learn how it works, then when it breaks people bitch because they dont understand error messages.

People who have no intention of learning how or why something works shouldn't be using it. Thats like giving someone a blowtorch if they have never seen one before, it ends in tears for the uneducated person.

[gn2]

The argument is not quite as ludicrous as you think. Firefox exploits in the wild have become increasingly popular as its marketshare increases.

Exploits are not necessarily viruses.
Viruses are a Windows phenomenon which exists because of bad design.

If everyone on the globe switched to Linux tomorrow, there still wouldn't be any Linux viruses in the wild come this time next year.

It is entirely absurd to suggest that increased user base would create Linux viruses.
Linux has been in wide use on servers for years, yet still there is no problem of Linux viruses in the wild.

[Tibuda]

Keep in mind that this post isn't really about the html editor (not that I wouldn't take a suggestion or two,) but the lack of thought for the regular Joe involving software.

"Regular Joe" does not make websites. If all he wants is a blog, he can use blogspot or some other site. If you are into web design you should learn HTML and CSS.

[linsux]

Exploits are not necessarily viruses.
Viruses are a Windows phenomenon which exists because of bad design.

If everyone on the globe switched to Linux tomorrow, there still wouldn't be any Linux viruses in the wild come this time next year.

It is entirely absurd to suggest that increased user base would create Linux viruses.
Linux has been in wide use on servers for years, yet still there is no problem of Linux viruses in the wild.

[citation needed]

[albinootje]

Exploits are not necessarily viruses.
Viruses are a Windows phenomenon which exists because of bad design.

If everyone on the globe switched to Linux tomorrow, there still wouldn't be any Linux viruses in the wild come this time next year.

It is entirely absurd to suggest that increased user base would create Linux viruses.

Indeed, and the difference with MS would be that the Linux developers would not care about "doing" anti-virus companies "a favor" by keeping them "alive". The Linux developers would fix the problems at the root, or projects would be forked to solve these problems.

For example the virus-in-5-minutes-in-Linux story is about dot desktop files in KDE and Gnome.
Imho this is a problem that needs to be resolved, but this is not a Linux specific problem.
Gnome and/or KDE can run in MS-Windows, FreeBSD, OpenSolaris etc.
Feel free to use XFCE4, openbox, fluxbox, enlightenment, LXDE etc instead of KDE or Gnome until this problem has been resolved.
... Try that with MS-Windows where everything is so tightly integrated that you have no choice to work around problems like this.

Linux has been in wide use on servers for years, yet still there is no problem of Linux viruses in the wild.
Afaik servers can suffer from worms, not from viruses.

I think that a lot of MS-Windows users tend to call everything viruses, whether it's trojans/worms/spyware/rootkits etc.
As I mentioned before, trojans are a problem in Linux e.g. when the user uses untrusted sources to compile and install software.

[pbpersson]

People who have no intention of learning how or why something works shouldn't be using it. Thats like giving someone a blowtorch if they have never seen one before, it ends in tears for the uneducated person.

I do not agree at all. People have no idea how cars, televisions, or elevators work and yet they use them every day.

Machines are meant to be USED by users - that is why we call them users.

The technicians and developers are the ones who understand what makes it all work. The only reason why they have jobs is because they can understand all this stuff.

If the common Joe understood all this I would be starving and living under a bridge. :o

[Cybie257]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quanta_Plus

Try that ^^

As for DVD burning software, Nero Linux might work for you.

I was just about to mention that, but wanted to read through and see if anyone else has. GO NERO!! I loved it in Windows, and love it in Linux. The way I see it, everyone who burns CD's/DVD's, regardless if you get by with OpenSource, should go out and buy a copy. This is the ONLY way that the commercial software industry will EVER support Linux the way it does for Windows and MAC. The perception, though not reality, is that anyone who uses Linux will not pay for software. While true in most cases as there are lots of softwares available OpenSource/Free, not everything we could want is, nor will be. Some pieces just take way too much coding to just give away.

Support those companies, such as Nero, and buy it. The sales numbers of existing software will be the only way to track the popularity of Linux and help move things forward.

-Cybie

[JayRott]

"Regular Joe" does not make websites. If all he wants is a blog, he can use blogspot or some other site. If you are into web design you should learn HTML and CSS.


Ok, let me just clear this part up. I DO know how to hand code HTML and CSS, I just don't always have the patience or the time. The project in question is someone's wedding page... not exactally something I need to spend days on by hand coding. It is only going to get seen once for the sake of streaming the service to out of towners not able to make it. I am just speaking as a cry in the wilderness for those lost in the linux world, as I sometimes find myself.

[Tibuda]

Ok, let me just clear this part up. I DO know how to hand code HTML and CSS, I just don't always have the patience or the time. The project in question is someone's wedding page... not exactally something I need to spend days on by hand coding. It is only going to get seen once for the sake of streaming the service to out of towners not able to make it. I am just speaking as a cry in the wilderness for those lost in the linux world, as I sometimes find myself.
And you talk about time... I write HTML and CSS a lot faster than clicking buttons in Dreamweaver. But this is not what I was talking about. I added a quote to my previous post to make it clear. You just can't say Ubuntu is not ready for "Regular Joe" because it does not have a WYSIWYG HTML editor. This remembers me of a guy saying that Ubuntu sucks because it was not able to run MS SQL Server.

[Bodsda]

I do not agree at all. People have no idea how cars, televisions, or elevators work and yet they use them every day.

Machines are meant to be USED by users - that is why we call them users.

The technicians and developers are the ones who understand what makes it all work. The only reason why they have jobs is because they can understand all this stuff.

If the common Joe understood all this I would be starving and living under a bridge. :o

No, but they understand basic principals, you push harder on the pedal it doesn't just go faster, more fuel is being fed into the engine. You turn the steering wheel the car doesn't just swerve to the direction you turned the wheel, the wheels turn and the car goes in that direction.

You put a table on your page via the insert menu in some WYSIWYG editor, its not a table made up of lines, it is a piece of HTML code that can be manipulated to give certain results. If you don't understand that then you 'cannot' make a decent website period.

That is what I mean by knowing how something works. Technicians know the intricacies of the tools in their profession, they know precisely how it works and therefore they can fix unwanted behavior. You do not have to be the creator of HTML to code web pages, but you do have to understand how it works.

[skotos]

As a development platform I run Eclipse. I had been working with Dreamweaver for years, but there is no way to compare them. I have always done web development coding html tags by hand, helped by Homesite and Dreamweaver suggestions, but - since my main target is php and html is by far a second nature - Eclipse made me forget Dreamweaver in a week.
There are indeed plugins for html, javascript and jquery under Eclipse, but none afaik providing a wysiwyg interface.

And the cli? humm... Though I share with you some concepts, I have to underline that providing a command to type in front of your keyboard does not mean that this is the only mean.
You can run Ubuntu with no GUI at all, but all of us are generally running a GUI.
Technically it is not bad having a system that can live without a GUI: it is the true secret behind Linux and the remote cause of every Windows crash. IT people talk about layers of abstraction and this is all about it, but I don't want to annoy you.

It is better to write down sudo apt-get install whatever in a post than to save a bunch of images to the desktop, edit and resize them, upload them when the Kb size fits well and discover that - your fellow is running a theme that does not provide the same windows/options/colors or that simply is running a different Windows version...
Ubuntu documentation obselescence does not depend on the theme either the version you are running, Windows documentation provides you lots of papers you will never read, but that will make you feel sure you have all you need, just a glimpse far from you untill you really need them..
I don't know what you think about it, but it is annoying to always start writing something like: Left click on Start (or Run), Select Control Panel (but don't click) -> Administrative Tasks .... (or something like that) and then discover the guy you are writing to does not use the classical theme so that the options get disposed in a different way you are not even interested in....

Running a computer is not an easy task and driving a car is not that easy as well.
Windows reinvented the wheel providing the command console as a last chance... but it's sadly unuseful for any serious problem you might face: better booting up a live Ubuntu cd/usb key and look at the ntfs file system from ...Midnight Commander, Nautilus, Thunar or whatever...

Commercial companies saying to you to just put your CD into the drive and let the software install and configure itself are simply lying: there were no IT professionals all around us if it were true. IT professionals are simply fed up with all these lies, but they often cannot deny - for instance - what their commercial collegue has sold you or others.... Lots of people need and want to listen to lies, because lies are by far better than the truth. (eg. never say to me "how bad you look today" if you do not want to get slammed)

With this I do not want to say that the wider GNU/Linux community does not need to change. I am the first one who did/does not like reading something like "do a simple make clean; configure; make install..."
If you are not a tech guy you might disrupt the whole system by simply spreading unnoticed files all over the system and Ubuntu was the first distro that destroyed this approach for ever providing lots of pre-packaged solutions that historical distros such as redhat/fedora/mandrake/slackware did not want even to think of.

This is the reason we are all running Ubuntu today. Mark Shuttleworth is indeed a brave Linux guy who has changed the things.
Not running closed apps by definition makes many users unhappy and transforms a technical or legal problem in something that is not: ethical, political or else.

Running linux can be ethical, political or whatever you like, but simply does not mean it has to be. Linux wouldn't have spreaded like this without the Compiz/Beryl Cube, MythTV, and all the many apps you know that do stay on top of propretary software.

Lots of things are changing and Ubuntu has shown the way to those who did not want to listen, but - please - do not pray to leave out the command line: this is the secret we - as linuxers and ubuntuers - are sharing and that makes us stay on and run to the top.

Does anyone know or remember cdrecord? A command line tool secretly and differently run by all of the apps which are writing CDs and DVDs.... Delete it or transform it into a pure GUI app and you will be left with nothing or that only.... No other guys will be able to write it from scratch. Do you understand what I mean?
The Unix heritage says: tiny is beatiful.
And this means: small apps that just do one thing but particularly well. This is the core *nix philosophy and culture: this is not a prejudice. This is the reason why Torvalds and Cox can deploy their kernel to all of us and why they can compile it with Stallman's gcc!

[skotos]

"what do you expect, it's free" does not equate in a corporate world. i'd rather pay money knowing i will get full support when needed.
Yes, here lies the trick. An MSCE or how they want to be named is needed but not enough: many so called certified professionals simply look like MS advertisments who cannot really help the customer but MS.

[skotos]

The fact that linux and Unix have had a hard time competing in corporate environments for desktop purposes is not suprising considering anti-trust suits against MS surrounding APIs, etc.
Well, MS has many faults, but not Unix related. In this case many big firms tried to sell their Unix workstations for gold even when they were just giving you something that was simply 4/5 times faster than an IBM / OS/2 compatible pc.

An example: a well equipped DOS pc was sold for 5 thousands and a base / entry level AIX/6000 (with no extra software) for 20.
It was simply too risky for many companies. This was a sort of religion war: they asked you to stay on one side or the other: IBM, HP, SCO to just name a few.

They wanted to loose their supremacy.

Anti-trust suits against MS surrounding APIs are historically Novell/NetWare related with regard to the operating system, and Borland/Inprise with regard to the programming language development: these two giants of the 80's were practically destroyed by MS behaviors and - I wanna think - badly informed and ignorant judges.

[WatchingThePain]

P.S. could someone please make a damned DVD video converter/editor that burns a DVD that will actually play on my DVD player!

Tried DEVEDE?.

[alexcckll]

OK - cards on the table. I work in support - not in development.

Thinking about the OP's comment, I found this dissertation the other day - talking precisely about this - asking the question - what about the end user?

http://etd.lib.ttu.edu/theses/available/etd-07232006-221754/unrestricted/Yeats_Dave_Diss.pdf

I know it's 200-odd pages long, but it does make some points.

If we want Ubuntu to succeed further, and with it coming in as a preinstall option on netbooks and the like ( and my lappie was a preinstall)... we have GOT to think about the end-users. While someone who's downloaded Ubuntu and burned the ISO has got it for free, someone who buys it preinstalled has BOUGHT the OS/environment.

Therefore different rules apply.

To a preinstall user, working just out of the repos, they may not actually care that a tiny applet has blown up.. and why should they? They are trying to perform a task and the computer is a tool. Over use of commercial software, Canonical are now offering licenced Fluendo codecs which you can buy... they offer Parallels.. what's to stop them negotiating with Adobe to have Dreamweaver available for purchase through their online store?

Just a thought...

[skotos]

...what about the end user?

http://etd.lib.ttu.edu/theses/available/etd-07232006-221754/unrestricted/Yeats_Dave_Diss.pdf

I know it's 200-odd pages long, but it does make some points.

If we want Ubuntu to succeed further, and with it coming in as a preinstall option on netbooks and the like ( and my lappie was a preinstall)... we have GOT to think about the end-users. While someone who's downloaded Ubuntu and burned the ISO has got it for free, someone who buys it preinstalled has BOUGHT the OS/environment.

Therefore different rules apply.

To a preinstall user, working just out of the repos, they may not actually care that a tiny applet has blown up.. and why should they? They are trying to perform a task and the computer is a tool...
Wow.. 229 pages... I have started reading something about the Evince bug tracking report...
Yes, a developer may indeed be unwilling at introducing features that would take the project far from what he/she does think, but hey: he/she is going to develop in the spare time...
If others want to provide a different approach and help to the non technical user they can even do it by extending the source by themselves: this is an Open Source option.
If a company like Canonical thinks that an app should provide more features than planned, a fork might take place as well in the worst case.
A distro is often a fork of another. It is not uncommon and Canonical does it as well and regularly.
From the end user perspective I just want to underline that this is not bad. What is bad, instead, is that if I have bought an Asus eeepc 900 equipped with Xandros and Amarok has a buggy configuration, it is sad looking at Linux that goes on, but NOT the eeepc Xandros distro. No updates in more than a year.
If an hardware vendor decides to provide a distro it should even provide regular updates for its machines: this is what might make the difference from the unexperienced end user point of view. I will simply format it and reinstall the Ubuntu distro for the eeepc from scratch but this is not easy for non system engineers. This has to be changed for sure.
Probably we need another GPL that should force hardware vendors to grant a minimum support, just like the Canonical LTS, whenever they decided to adopt a distro. We all know that an hardware vendor can deliver software that runs on its products, but we need it to regularly update the software, not just its hardware products list.
...Over use of commercial software, Canonical are now offering licenced Fluendo codecs which you can buy... they offer Parallels.. what's to stop them negotiating with Adobe to have Dreamweaver available for purchase through their online store?...I do not understand much of this. But if a WYSIWYG HTML editor is one of the targets, working on an Eclipse open source plugin improvement might be a winning strategy.
Eclipse can be quickly and efficiently - with no errors - installed by running the free applet from poweredbypulse.com and with some further cleaning Eclipse might take a web developer to paradise: starting from Ganymede, in fact, the browser can be natively invoked from inside the Eclipse GUI as it has been for Windows for a few years, thus a preview can already be done.
HTH