Representative of Ubuntu Graphics community?

[Dadster]

Hi I'm Dadster co-founder of Linux Graphics Users forum. We have a small but growing community of people who want to learn about graphics art. We're a laid back and friendly forum with some very talented members as well as folks wanting to learn. I've authored several articles of tribute to distro art teams. Early this morning I sent a request to do a feature on your Ubuntu art team. I'm waiting for someone to contact me to put me in touch with whoever can authorize such an endeavor.

I haven't heard from anyone yet concerning doing an Ubuntu tribute but my forum was unlucky enough to receive a visit from an unfriendly guest who prefaced his first post as being "with all due respect". As I read his post I found no evidence of respect for my forum nor our members. This person presented himself as a lead designer here on Ubuntu which reflects on your entire community. I sincerely hope that his action is not indicative of the rest of your community.

I've copied and pasted his post below. This is one example of the kind of person that is detrimental to the Linux community as a whole. With members like this creating an atmosphere of negativity who needs Balmer and MS?

Now, I must preface this by saying while this might be a, "strongly worded" 1st post, it's meant with all due respect and is only to provoke thought.

If this is supposed to be an artists community, where's the thought and design in the site itself? Imagine you have people coming from Mac or even Windows design circles and they see that logo in the upper left? It's simply embarrassing.

It looks as if it was just created with a (very bad) filter in GIMP. And what are you trying to communicate with it? (this being the major point) That this site is run by Irish folks who love gold? (the .com is completely unnecessary also) Who is your target audience?

Honestly, I've given up on trying to carve out our own little niche. There's simply too few of us to try to be separate from larger communities like DeviantArt who have many people using linux tools.

Most of the bigger tools for Linux (Inkscape, GIMP, Blender and the like) have their own thriving specific communities that are best to go to. (thinking of the "Mr. Ed" theme tune as I type this one)

Is there anyone here who actually has a clue about art and design? A simple "build it and they will come" plan won't work here. You have to know who you're talking to and know the language. The design of the forum would have to be *really* strong and offer something unique.


-Cory K.
Lead designer/creator on Ubuntu Studio.

[Ben Crisford]

I would like to hear his side of the story also...

I'm sure there is more to this story.

Your logo isn't all that bad, I don't entirely agree with Cory, but I would change the colour of the border to something darker and bring the transparancy down on the border ;).

[Andreas1]

could you post a link?

[Ben Crisford]

could you post a link?

Yeah that would be useful =].

Ill google the quote i'm sure it'll find the thread ;).

EDIT; All I found in the end was this thread... Bit odd :/.

[ajackson]

Having read the thread in question ( http://linuxgraphicsusers.com/index.php?topic=708.0 ), it is sad to say the replies didn't reflect too well on your community either but I can understand why the original post would provoke such responses.

I certainly hope the views are not representative of the Ubuntu community, you have to remember all communities are made up of humans and humans will all have their own opinion on things. So please don't tar us all with the same brush if you find an individuals comments offensive.

[Dadster]

Having read the thread in question ( http://linuxgraphicsusers.com/index.php?topic=708.0 ), it is sad to say the replies didn't reflect too well on your community either but I can understand why the original post would provoke such responses.

Yes I agree that restraint would have shown us the better and though it's no excuse, it is hard to turn the other cheek while someone continues to slap. The replies were a knee jerk reaction in defense of our forum. As you said we're all human.

In any event, I would like to feature Ubuntus' art team on our forum. Here is the link to that board http://linuxgraphicsusers.com/index.php?board=48.0 I hope to post it for May if you're agreeable to that time frame. I use a questionnaire that produces an interview format. This way all who participate are credited.

Thank you, Bill

[Sand & Mercury]

I'm sorry to say but I agree with Cory's post entirely. I wouldn't say that it reflects badly on Linux as a whole, but from an aesthetic perspective the forum's poorly presented. Upon first inspection I see the amateurish banner, the stock forum skin and now a thread full of butthurt from not members, but admins and founders, who go a long way to represent the community's attitude as a whole. How's that supposed to reflect on you guys? Why should that embarrass us?

If you're serious about how you represent your forum you gotta draw a line between giving people a fair go, and maintaining some quality control. If you're only looking out for your own at the expense of everyone else, your community is gonna stagnate and very quickly too.

He also gave some very good advice and it'd be advisable to show some respect for his experience and expertise. He's trying to help you out.

[geminiguy]

The forum was put together from an idea by Dadster and myself, for new users of Linux graphics applications to help build their confidence and skills in a neutral environment. But also for those who are experienced.
The logo, is from a contest we had and after a while, decided to rotate all the entries for a while.
Taking time to have read our "about LGU" thread and our rules would have made the entire concept a bit clearer to the OP as well as taking some time to look around.
I was online from the time this individual first logged in, and it was few mere minutes by the time that first post was made.

I am not too keen on people who shield insults by stating that they are making them with "all due respect"
Would have been an entirely different story had the OP simply stated, that they were willing to offer some ideas and maybe help with the design... rather than putting down the work of someone who is new to using these applications.

The post does not cause us to feel this is the mindset of the entire community. But it was a little disturbing to me to see someone tag a representative title to their name, and then start bashing away.
I would think most people with decent social skills would view the original comments of the poster to be insulting (especially given the time frame from first log-on to the time it was made)
The whole problem could have been easily avoided with some thought put into the delivery of the message.

I have experience with graphics & design, but should people respect rude critique based on that?
It kind of hit at an awkward time too, because Dadster is just getting things together to see about doing an interview for the Ubuntu art team for us. But I am also curious as to what the thoughts of general Ubuntu users would be about the way they were represented in this persons post.

[Dadster]

It's not the advise that is disturbing. It was the elitist and condescending approach he showed to folks and disregard for how such a worded post would be recieved. He may well have experience and expertise in graphics art but none what-so-ever when introducing himself to people. And I'm not so sure he could hold a candle to some at LGU but I don't want to get into "my Dad can beat up your Dad" so I'll just give you some of my history. And I don't have nearly the experience that others on our forum have.

I've done quite a bit of graphics work for such distros as PCLinux, Klikit and BELinux to name a few. I have two accounts at Deviant art for a few years. And the one thing I keep coming back to is the people. That's what art is about. That is the reason we started LGU. It is somewhere folks can come to learn from those who can teach with out the condescending or elitist atmosphere that they find dealing with some "art experts" at some other forums. When it's all said and done Linux Graphics Users forum will have contributed to the advancement of Linux Graphics in a friendly and helpful way and hopefully set a positive example by our words and deeds. And by doing so we give back to the Linux art community.

Upon first inspection I see the amateurish banner

Since you've centered on the banner, it was done by an amateur for a fun contest we held to give folks a chance to show their ideas. We are displaying all entries for about a week each. We feel by letting them see their work posted it will give some confidence to want to do more. do better.

We don't need a "Grab You" look to our forum. In one year of existence we've got over 150 members. I think that's pretty good cause we're still having fun doing something we love, all of us.

Now who is in charge that I may speak to about an Ubuntu tribute to your art team on our forum? I'd really like to get this going.

[iponeverything]

the forums are extremely high volume so that odds of someone seeing it that has the information to you seek is quite small.

[Dadster]

OK. Thanks, I have another distro that can participate on short notice. And in the meanwhile if you'd like some advice from a talented and experienced group on anything having to do with graphic art here at Ubuntu we'd be glad to help. But to quote Cori, Now admittedly sounding a bit elitist, (I and many others consider it having standards based on knowledge) but just because someone offers you up the best "crap" (sorry just can't think of a better word) does that mean we have to use it?

Thanks for an informative session. I'll be moving along. Bill

[ajackson]

Sorry to add another 2p worth but I read the part Dadster added to the first post in the thread over there. You talk about playing nice and following forums rules then add comments like that or the condescending tone of your later post. As admins you and the others should uphold the rules of your forum, if you think the bloke is a moron that is fine, when you post that as an admin then sorry but you aren't much better yourself.

An outsider browsing that will feel that if they annoy someone who is an admin/mod that they will get humiliated via the forum. Would you join a forum like that?

To quote Dadster from that thread:
A good life lesson on online etiquette.
Shame you missed the lesson on the responsibility that comes with being a mod/admin.

[Dadster]

One last quick little post. You're all invited to join Linux Graphics Users forum. You will be welcomed with opened arms.

God bless you all on this most reverent Easter holiday.

[Ben Crisford]

One last quick little post. You're all invited to join Linux Graphics Users forum. You will be welcomed with opened arms.

God bless you all on this most reverent Easter holiday.

Thank you very much :).

I hope you had a nice easter, as in the UK it is now technically monday...

I might sign up for your forum. But if I were you I would make the logo border a darker shade of green, and make it a bit transparent, it will do it loads of good IMO.

Anyway, happy easter,
Ben

[Dragonbite]

Dadster, Gemini... glad to see you guys on this side of the neighborhood.

Sorry to hear that somebody is coming from the Ubuntu community and leaving a bad taste in anybody's mouth. Unfortunately anybody running across such blather will have a not-accurate view of Ubuntu users and that effects everybody here.

LGU is an open place where artists can expose themselves through their art and not worry about some "holier-than-thou" to come along and rub salt into the tender wound.

The person's first post is annoying along the lines of people that post for the first time "I have Ubuntu" and "Goodbye Ubuntu, You suck!".

In both cases the time to find out how, why and how to improve it is never explored. Nor to see the road the forum has taken thus far to get to this point.

I've noticed the caliber of artists joining in to be improving and considering LGU hasn't been around all that long, this is a good sign.

[alex.rayu]

Maybe his post was not very polite, but it's very true. Your designer forum is like a fat old lady being a trainer for body building. Take it cum grano salis - no offense meant. But I agree with the guy 100%. If it's a design forum it has to look correspondingly.

[alex.rayu]

Dadster, Gemini... glad to see you guys on this side of the neighborhood.

Sorry to hear that somebody is coming from the Ubuntu community and leaving a bad taste in anybody's mouth. Unfortunately anybody running across such blather will have a not-accurate view of Ubuntu users and that effects everybody here.

Gee, what politics. What bad taste? Come on, be simpler. The guys have a terrible logo and a default design. And that guy did not say anything offensive. He was very constructive in what he said. Had he not said it, Dadster would be still probably thinking that his logo is cool and the default forum theme is special enough for a designer's community. If I were him I would be thankful and would start rallying the redesign at once.

[detrate]

As a representative of the Ubuntu community, I believe Cory K should have been more diplomatic in his approach. Dadster was looking to pay tribute to Ubuntu by authoring an article about the Art Team.

It sounds like Cory is letting his own shortcomings warrant his harsh words.
Honestly, I've given up on trying to carve out our own little niche. There's simply too few of us to try to be separate from larger communities like DeviantArt who have many people using linux tools.

Most of the bigger tools for Linux (Inkscape, GIMP, Blender and the like) have their own thriving specific communities that are best to go to. (thinking of the "Mr. Ed" theme tune as I type this one)


This is not "constructive criticism" as some have claimed:
And what are you trying to communicate with it? (this being the major point) That this site is run by Irish folks who love gold? (the .com is completely unnecessary also) Who is your target audience?

Is there anyone here who actually has a clue about art and design?

Sure, good critique is hidden behind the harsh words but is this really an appropriate way for the Lead Designer of an open-source project to speak to a community of people simply trying to enjoy themselves and learn?


Of course the people in this thread siding with Cory 100% are themselves using terms like "butthurt" and making 'clever' comments such as, "Your designer forum is like a fat old lady being a trainer for body building."

I imagine these users have the same idiotic smirks on their face that Cory had when writing his remark about the Irish and gold or Mr. Ed.



I don't think it's fair to knock someone for trying, especially in open-source where little communities can make a big difference. To rain on their parade is just rude and furthermore unprofessional. As a person of high status in the Ubuntu community, Cory K should learn to be more diplomatic.

[alex.rayu]

I don't think it's fair to knock someone for trying, especially in open-source where little communities can make a big difference. To rain on their parade is just rude and furthermore unprofessional. As a person of high status in the Ubuntu community, Cory K should learn to be more diplomatic.

You are right, of course. Let us be diplomatic. But let's also be simple and not make political speeches out of every criticism, especially combining such a statement of Cory with Ubuntu. That sounded as if Ubuntu community assigned him to go say the design was wanting. Which would of course could not happen. If you think that Cory's post is unfair and turns people away - better delete it than writing your own comment in red letter about how bad Cory is. That does not make the taste in the mouth sweeter, if that is a concern. Removing thje post and writing a PM to Cory and telling what you think about him (diplomatically, of course) would be optimal.

[detrate]

The fact of the matter is Cory K, a representative of the Ubuntu community went to a forum to post negative criticism unprofessionally, signing it with his name and Ubuntu's. Whether he was sent or not does not change these facts.

As a supposed leader, he should be more concerned with how he represents himself and Ubuntu because it's clear he sent a ripple through the LGU community. So much so, that Dadster posted a thread here to inquire about this event.

LGU's reactions to his attack do not justify Cory's wrong-doing.

[ajackson]

Of course the people in this thread siding with Cory 100% are themselves using terms like "butthurt" and making 'clever' comments such as, "Your designer forum is like a fat old lady being a trainer for body building."

I imagine these users have the same idiotic smirks on their face that Cory had when writing his remark about the Irish and gold or Mr. Ed.
Are your comments any better? "Idiotic smirks" is not a constructive comment.

I agree in part with the sentiments of Cory's post, a graphics/designer forum shouldn't really be using the default skin and the logo was bright. I don't agree with how he worded it though.

But none of that justifies the responses from the admins, in their view Corys comments reflect badly on the Ubuntu community, in my view their comments reflect even worse on their forum. Two wrongs don't make a right.

[Sand & Mercury]

Of course the people in this thread siding with Cory 100% are themselves using terms like "butthurt"
That's just how I talk. http://forums.megadeth.com/images/smilies/shrug.gif

[geminiguy]

But, LGU is not a designer's forum. That is the point. It is a forum for Linux graphics software users... there are new users, and some experienced users to help them along the way. Kind of like an open class, where anyone can walk in, and learn something, ask questions, etc. in once central location.
It has also never been intended to try to take away from the great forums that each software has of their own. It was merely an idea to simplify and create a very open and helpful environment for newer artists to help build their understanding of features and their uses... as well as build their confidence.

The way the OP was worded, is exactly where the problem lays. That is what began the issue. Along with the OP feeling the need to clearly mark themelves as a rep of Ubuntu.
None of us at LGU hold this entire community in the wrong, but at the same time, also interested in what general Ubuntu users would feel about being represented this way.

The problem for me, in my own view, is when people try to cloak insults with the shield of "in due respect" There was nothing respectful in any of the wording.
We admins at LGU have been speaking on making some nice changes soon... we have know for a while we and our members would like to see the site prettied-up. And some of the points made by the OP are correct.. but put across via a very rude mannerism, and then the OP completely fails to see the wrong of it, and does not even entertain the thought of apologizing.
That alone, shows very poor social skills.

Had the post seemed only lightly rude, I would have pm'd the poster. But, seeing as they chose to be overly insulting and inconsiderate of other's I chose to respond in the same manner.. and surprise, the OP was offended by that when it came full circle on them, with a "Do unto others, but they had better not do unto me" attitude.

We still would like to do an interview with the Ubuntu design team. And wanted to see what other Ubuntu reps felt about seeing a fellow rep behave this way, dragging the Ubuntu name in behind them.

[ajackson]

That alone, shows very poor social skills.
And what does yours and the others admins responses show?

Had the post seemed only lightly rude, I would have pm'd the poster. But, seeing as they chose to be overly insulting and inconsiderate of other's I chose to respond in the same manner
"But he started it", I thought that sort of comment was only heard in school playgrounds. You are trying to justify being abusive and rude, why?

What would look better, a calm dignified response to a rude post or an angry "eye for an eye" response. One shows, to quote yourself, very poor social skills.

I've said it once before but I'll say it again. With power that comes with being a forum administrator comes responsibility, yes you are human and can make errors but your responses look more like a concerted counter-attack.

[Dragonbite]

"But he started it", I thought that sort of comment was only heard in school playgrounds.

You need to get out more often if you only hear this in the playgrounds.. Between other parents and co-workers I sometimes think its the kids that are the more mature!

[ajackson]

You need to get out more often if you only hear this in the playgrounds.. Between other parents and co-workers I sometimes think its the kids that are the more mature!
I see you stumbled upon the meaning of my comment. The whole "he started it" is an immature response. "You need to get out more" is borderline :) (That was a joke, not a dig, in case you miss the understanding of that comment)

[geminiguy]

I want to make sure everyone understands, this thread was not intending to create any hostilities between LGU and Ubuntu community.
And, I am not going on a "he started it" theory, or tactic.

Bottom line here is, when one decides to join a community... you take the time to read their rules, find out what the community is all about, before posting.
The OP took no time to do either, and even though there were valid points made (which we were already aware of btw) those points were made in a very rude and inconsiderate manner.
Were the comments only pointed at the staff.. it would have been handled a bit differently... but, insult our members, and it will not be taken so lightly.
If the person had taken the time to look around, they would have known where that header image came form... And the worst part of it, was doing these things while boasting themselves as a representative of the Ubuntu community.

Constructive, and useful criticism is not accompanied by insulting comments. I am a very easy going person, but I will confront ignorance head on, always.
I did offer the OP a chance to reconsider their wording, to correct it, and all would have been fine either way they chose. To fix the comment and share their knowledge, or move on. But they were offended when the same criticism they offered came back on them.

[ajackson]

Bottom line here is, when one decides to join a community... you take the time to read their rules, find out what the community is all about, before posting.
Hold on say that bit again
when one decides to join a community... you take the time to read their rules
You mean the part of the rules that says:
No Insulting / Humiliating
Good job your admins have read and follow your rules :)

Good luck with the forum, should you get another "interesting" post over there, curse the bugger all you like then reply in a calm but firm manner.

This thread and the responses over at your place could encourage people who wish to be disruptive to come visit as they know they can get a rise out of you.

I'm not going to comment further as I don't want to get deeper into a war of words, I hope the incident blows over and is soon forgotten (or just laughed about).