Why so expensive?

[trot2millah]

I am just curious why System76 machines tend to be priced around $200-$300 more expensive when I am comparing them to similar machines by top companies like HP, Gateway, etc. I would think that the lack of Vista would make the laptops much cheaper, but this doesn't seem the case. I am guessing that the low prices are because major computer companies are suffering heavily in the recession, but is there another reason? I'm getting interested in purchasing an Ubuntu-only machine, and was curious if anyone had any information to offer.

[xakh]

Actually, after comparing pricing on my pangolin performance, I found it to be almost exactly equal. However, if the prices seem higher than the big box companies, it may be due to the process of production. It is cheaper to produce in bulk, which HP, Dell, and the like can do, to pass the savings onward. However, due to the size of s76, they cannot make products as quickly, since the means of production would be expensive, and somewhat unnecessary. I hope that helps to answer your question.

[perce]

Because they are smaller than Dell, HP, etc. It's the same reason why independent shops are more expensive than big supermarket chains; it is somehow inevitable.

[Talon2]

If you buy from Dell or hp you will pay state sales tax. Depending on where you are you won't with System76. Don't forget to consider this.

[Chemical Imbalance]

Personally I would just buy a laptop from newegg and research the components. But system76 is a great company to support if you have the money (I'm cheap :) )

[betrunkenaffe]

Compare S76 to Dell for Linux boxes. There really is no comparison price wise.

[thomasaaron]

One other note on this: Often when people say our prices are higher, they may not have done an apples-to-apples comparison of the components and build quality of the machine.

Most of the time, when I get a question like this in the email, I ask for the specs of the machine they are comparing us too. All to often, it is a machine with components that are a generation or two behind, have slower hardware, etc...

[3Miro]

I looked at both Laptops available at newegg (Acers and Dells) and also did comparison with Apple Laptops. System76 was about 300 - 400 cheaper for and (almost) apple for apple comparison.

I have a Pangolin with nVidia 9300M, the only other laptops that had that mobo were Asus and were priced close to $2000. Apple sells nVidia 9400M (the difference being the bus width) for almost $400 more, my CPU was better than Mac's. Acer would have cheaper Laptops, but with slower CPU, slower RAM and only Intel Video.

System76 has very reasonable prices, according to my research.

[thomasaaron]

Yeah, that's *typically* what I find when push comes to shove.

[Vadi]

Oh, what about the 'Windows Tax'?

[thomasaaron]

Nope.

[betrunkenaffe]

I priced out the exact same machine with Windows (literally) and it cost 200-300 more with Vista Premium.

[former_warper]

You can't compare stats. The different manufacturers use different quality products in the chassis, case, screen, etc. This is particularly true when one considers the core components, such as motherboards. That is why computers with the same "stats" on paper have such different outcomes.
This speaks to both performance and durability.
The reality is that System76 uses quality products from top shelf ODMs like Clevo. That is what you need to compare - the source product. The Serp5 upon which I am typing this is Clevo's M860TU - the fastest 15.4 laptop when it was made last year. How good is Clevo? Check out some of the other topline boutique manufacturers, such as Eurocomm, Ava Direct, Rock PC and Alienware. They all use Clevo built products. They customize, and provide the customer service.
And that is something you get in spades from System76 - top notch customer support.
If you compare apples to apples, in this case System76 to the other Clevo distributers, you find outstanding value and pricing. Comparing to HP or Gateway to System76 is not comparable; you have to compare HP or Gateway to the Clevo. I've owned laptops from Panasonic, Toshiba, HP, Fujitsu, 2 Gateways, Macbook Pro, and a work one from Lenovo. Only the Gateways were cheaper in price, and 1 crapped out after 13 months. Quite frankly, only the Panasonic, a Toughbook, was physically better, but cost about 2x the price. The others all cost the same or more than the System76, but delivered no better quality.
I think my Serp5 provides the best value for dollar of any laptop I've used since 1993.

[3Miro]

When I was looking to buy a Linux pre-installed Laptop, I found that there are places that sell very old/low quality machines and use Linux because it is the only thing that is light enough to run on them. I was kind of frustrated because there was some sort of a "you want a free OS, then you must be poor, so here is a cheap and crappy laptop" mentality.

System76 laptops do have great hardware, we are talking top or near top of the line machines, so naturally they cost. Look at any other place and tell me how much do you have to pay for a Laptop with nVidia 9800GT video inside, then compare that to the sys76 price.

[jdb]

Besides being a good deal, buying System76 is a good way to support the Linux community.

When System76 tunes a driver or writes a patch to make something work on their hardware,
it usually makes it into Ubuntu or the Kernel and benefits everyone.
That's part of the reason other laptops with the same mobo/hardware work so good.

jdb

[kperkins]

Besides the great service from System76, the hardware is top of the line. When I first bought my Pangolin almost 2 years ago I was worried about the quality, because I had 2 Gateways fall to pieces on me under normal everyday use. The Pangolin is still going strong, although getting slower (probably cruft--time for reinstall) with no hardware problems at all.

[trot2millah]

Thanks a lot for all the input (especially thomasaaron), the whole "bulk-manufacturing" seems to be a big thing. And I think that despite the relative price hike, the fact that you are supporting the world's greatest OS and supporting an independent company that avoids Windows seems to make the laptops more than worth it. Plus, the custom Ubuntu case designs on the Gazelle are sweet :)

[MorphWVUtuba]

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=796958

I posted in that S76/Dell comparo thread that System76 was the best performance available for a specialty Linux manufacturer.
That was a good while ago, but it's pretty much held true.

Just as an example, there are a lot more folks out there selling laptops with NVIDIA 8*** series cards, but hardly any with the 9*** series and they're almost always more expensive.

Even when I look at other boutique computer makers/sellers like iBuyPower, CyberPower, Falcon NW, Sager, etc., it still seems like nobody else offers the performance of S76 without costing several hundred more dollars.

Disclaimer: I could be wrong, and it certainly wouldn't be the first time. But if there is a higher performance machine available out there with a comparable price, I'd like to know about it.

[samalex]

After reading this I did some research on my own and made a post on our Linux User Group BBS with a spreadsheet of laptops all similar to the System76 Pangolin Performance, and in pretty much every case the System76 laptop was less expensive. I tried my best to find laptops with the same screen resolution, processor, memory, etc.

http://hotlug.org/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=732

My post on the HOTLUG site has a link to an Open Office spreadsheet I put together earlier this week from each vendors website with specs and prices. This proves that for the Pangolin laptop it is actually quite a good deal compared to similar laptops.

Sam Alex

[imhavoc]

I looked at both Laptops available at newegg (Acers and Dells) and also did comparison with Apple Laptops. System76 was about 300 - 400 cheaper for and (almost) apple for apple comparison.

I have a Pangolin with nVidia 9300M, the only other laptops that had that mobo were Asus and were priced close to $2000. Apple sells nVidia 9400M (the difference being the bus width) for almost $400 more, my CPU was better than Mac's. Acer would have cheaper Laptops, but with slower CPU, slower RAM and only Intel Video.

System76 has very reasonable prices, according to my research.

This is pretty much what I found when I was notebook shopping a couple of years ago. I did eventually find that I could get the "white book" that the System76 was customizing for anywhere from $20.00 less to $30.00 more for the exact same spec, with no OS support,no installed OS and a 90 day guarantee (as compared with System76's one year warranty).

The stuff from Gateway is "poor" (to be kind) and the systems from HP and Dell were significantly lower spec for their Linux machines with a marginally lower price. (The comparably spec'd Windows machines were about what 3Miro described.)

You have to pay a little for System76 to pay for Thomas Aaron -- and it's worth every penny!

[ProfDecoy]

I'm very happy with the price I paid for my Wild Dog desktop. But I would like to point out that all the "big box" manufacturers--Dell, HP, Sony and the rest--all get "kickbacks" from all the bloatware they put on their systems. You know that "trial" version of McAfee, the annoying desktop icons and such that you'd spend a day or more trying to clean out, that you end up just digging out an original Windows install disc just to have a clean install.

That's extra money in the manufacturer's pocket for bundling all that bloat in with the new system, so they can shave off a few dollars here and there on the price of the system.

I'll put my money where I think it'll be to good use, and have been considering buying a full fledged server from System76 (for home use), but can't quite fully justify it yet.

[eddietours]

yep l just waste sometime with a friend sony laptop with the bloat of software sooo Anonying this that trial version has expire jesus
l love my Gazelle:guitar:

[TheBuzzSaw]

I have both a Darter Ultra (daru2) and a Wild Dog Performance (Nvidia generation).

I couldn't be happier. ^_^

[thinman1189]

My laptop (Serval Performance) cost about 200-300 less than my roommate's (Dell XPS, before tax) and we have the exact same hardware.

[wsonar]

I was thinking about a macbook but this seems like a company that I would want to help support I'm leaning towards the darter because I can get it with 4 gigs for just under 800 well I guess just over after shipping and tax

but still not bad

[3Miro]

I was looking into Mac and one can argue that 9400M is more than 9300M and that the battery of a Macbook lasts longer, however, for the difference in prices, it is just not worth it. Mac has great hardware and OSX is nice, but Apple sux for overpricing everything so much.

[wsonar]

I am thinking about trying to install leopard on PC tho that sounds interesting

have linux windows and mac all on one laptop whahahaha

[jjacobs2]

I was looking into Mac and one can argue that 9400M is more than 9300M and that the battery of a Macbook lasts longer, however, for the difference in prices, it is just not worth it. Mac has great hardware and OSX is nice, but Apple sux for overpricing everything so much.

I think the 9300M is actually more powerful than the 9400M since it has dedicated RAM while the 9400M uses system RAM.

[theorysavage]

I got what I thought was a good deal on a Dell, only to find that it wasn't very Linux friendly. (I didn't actually buy a Linux Dell, though, which may have helped.) I returned it and bought a System 76 and was very happy with the choice of hardware components and smooth compatibility. I'll probably buy from them again. My experience with System76 has been very good.

[former_warper]

I got what I thought was a good deal on a Dell, only to find that it wasn't very Linux friendly. (I didn't actually buy a Linux Dell, though, which may have helped.) I returned it and bought a System 76 and was very happy with the choice of hardware components and smooth compatibility. I'll probably buy from them again. My experience with System76 has been very good.

Ha, ha. Remember poor lil ol' whatshername, who had to drop out of school because she bought a Linux Dell? How on earth could she do that uninentionally but almost no one else can on purpose?

[Chemical Imbalance]

Ha, ha. Remember poor lil ol' whatshername, who had to drop out of school because she bought a Linux Dell? How on earth could she do that uninentionally but almost no one else can on purpose?

Don't remind me! I had the "rolling eyes" syndrome for a week after hearing that :lolflag:

[mxboy15u]

I know there is little profit in low-end machines but I do wish they offered something more along the lines with a $400-500 laptop. We just word process and surf the internet with our computers so it is very difficult to justify such high end hardware even if the price is excellent in hardware comparison. I am stuck buying low end computers and installing ubuntu myself where things sometimes (stupid internal mic) just will not work...even if overall it works better than a windows machine.

[3Miro]

When I made the comment about the low end machines, I didn't mean that people shouldn't buy "low end" machines, just that I was happy to get the better ones from sys76.

It is hard for a relatively small company to offer the variety of (mostly crappy) choices like Dell does. Dell and others may have occasional discounts to get rid of old inventory, however, sys76 custom builds everything so they have nothing to clean.

Variety is good, just sometimes not feasible.

[jdb]

I know there is little profit in low-end machines but I do wish they offered something more along the lines with a $400-500 laptop. We just word process and surf the internet with our computers so it is very difficult to justify such high end hardware even if the price is excellent in hardware comparison. I am stuck buying low end computers and installing ubuntu myself where things sometimes (stupid internal mic) just will not work...even if overall it works better than a windows machine.

It sounds like 76 is just a few weeks away from releasing a netbook, it might be just the ticket.

jdb

[mxboy15u]

It sounds like 76 is just a few weeks away from releasing a netbook, it might be just the ticket.

jdb

Excellent news! We are in the market for another netbook and will wait to see what they offer.

[TheBuzzSaw]

I just want to comment that the mere fact that system76 machines work with fresh installations of Ubuntu makes them worth the price. Windows is a hassle to find drivers for.

[Murrquan]

I'm not sure I consider my DARU3 Darter Ultra worth the price, because I've had graphics problems with it from day 1. As have many others. ^.^; Here's a thread somebody started about it: LINK (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=7094510)

It's a very shiny machine, though. I can't fault the build quality, which is better than any notebook I've owned -- including an IBM Thinkpad. Only the drivers.

[thomasaaron]

It is a little premature to fault the Darter on it's performance under Jaunty.

Jaunty testing is still in process.