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gletob
March 16th, 2009, 03:35 AM
Lately there have been a LOT of Windows/Microsoft bashing threads. Can someone explain why?

wolfen69
March 16th, 2009, 03:38 AM
probably because a LOT of people really don't like them at all.

RiceMonster
March 16th, 2009, 03:40 AM
Because when a lot of people first find Linux, they get overly excited and feel like they're rebelling against Microsoft.

init1
March 16th, 2009, 03:41 AM
Lately there have been a LOT of Windows/Microsoft bashing threads. Can someone explain why?
Lately? It's been going on for a long time.

earthpigg
March 16th, 2009, 03:43 AM
i have nothing against them.

Microsoft is a corporation doing waht corporations do.

(ie: whatever they can get away with.)



i would do the same in their shoes.

wolfen69
March 16th, 2009, 03:44 AM
Lately? It's been going on for a long time.

that's actually very true.

gletob
March 16th, 2009, 03:44 AM
Lately? It's been going on for a long time.

But there has been more of them lately.

Giant Speck
March 16th, 2009, 03:48 AM
This thread is going to turn ugly. I just know it.

Greg
March 16th, 2009, 03:50 AM
But there has been more of them lately.

Community growth :)
Also, I think closing down OOST might have concentrated it.

Ubuntu lovers results in a lot of hate on Microsoft, KDE, whatever else they feel goes against what they use :p

//That said, I hate Microsoft

init1
March 16th, 2009, 03:52 AM
But there has been more of them lately.
It might be because some used "Other OS Talk" for bashing, and now use the Cafe. It might also be because new users join every day, and that new users are more likely to bash.
Edit:
Greg beat me to it :D

C!oud
March 16th, 2009, 04:01 AM
There's nothing wrong with disliking a particular company or product based on rational conclusions but this blind linux zealotry is getting ridiculous.

abyssius
March 16th, 2009, 04:05 AM
I wonder how many MS bashers learned their computer chops on a Windows machine? How soon they forget...;)

Primefalcon
March 16th, 2009, 04:09 AM
pride pretty much... people Love Ubuntu/Linux here and well Microsoft is the main opposition, not to mention most people change because they didn't like windows...

I love Ubuntu I hate Windows, Do I hate Microsoft.. no would I like to see them fall... yes it'd bring more innovation into the OS area.

Do I think Ubuntu is the best OS around... yes otherwise I'd be using soemthing else....

Do I think it's perfect.. No Ubuntu does have area's where improvment needs to be done... Codecs for one...

Open source software promotes Innovation by allowing input from anyone... which means is has an uber fast rate of improvement.

Compare Linux now of Linux 5 years ago.... big jump...

Compare windows of now to 5 years ago vista/7 to XP.... not much of a difference except for a skin/slight improvement, no huge radical differences.

pwnst*r
March 16th, 2009, 04:31 AM
Community growth :)
Also, I think closing down OOST might have concentrated it.

Ubuntu lovers results in a lot of hate on Microsoft, KDE, whatever else they feel goes against what they use :p



...which is hilarious at best.

abyssius
March 16th, 2009, 04:32 AM
Compare windows of now to 5 years ago vista/7 to XP.... not much of a difference except for a skin/slight improvement, no huge radical differences.

I think between XP and Vista/Windows7 there are more profound changes under the skin than you care to recognise - especially in the way DRM is handled. I also think that because of these changes and other factors, the future belongs to Linux. And, I hope that Ubuntu is the pre-eminent distribution in that future.

Sealbhach
March 16th, 2009, 04:33 AM
Vista refugees? I'm a Vista refugee so I pretty much understand anybody who got conned into buying that piece of ****.


.

Onoskelis
March 16th, 2009, 04:33 AM
I use both Ubuntu and the Windows 7 beta (excellent OS btw)

That's why God invented dual booting.

smartboyathome
March 16th, 2009, 04:36 AM
Vista refugees? I'm a Vista refugee so I pretty much understand anybody who got conned into buying that piece of ****.


.

Windows Vista isn't that bad. Yes, there are some things I hate about it. But there are some things I like about it too.

miegiel
March 16th, 2009, 04:44 AM
It's pointless to hate a person that is a person in the legal sense and in no other sense :twisted: And that includes microsoft.

Regardless, I'm paranoid enough to wonder what it would cost a "legal person" to hire 2 hands to visit this forum and stir up some emotions.

abyssius
March 16th, 2009, 04:51 AM
It's impossible to believe that there is any OS that is impervious to criticism. I think the word "hate" is a little melodramatic. The fact is Windows introduced the computer to the masses - which includes most of the detractors on this thread. Being critical of aspects of an operating system shouldn't invoke hatred. Hatred is bigotry - and bigotry is usually the result of ignorance. Making an informed decision to change your OS shouldn't be based on ignorance, it should be based on enlightenment.

Dekkon
March 16th, 2009, 04:52 AM
*DELETE*

Pressed button more then once on lag, I guess, and posted two. :)

Dekkon
March 16th, 2009, 04:53 AM
Compare windows of now to 5 years ago vista/7 to XP.... not much of a difference except for a skin/slight improvement, no huge radical differences.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d0/Ubuntu-desktop-2-410-20080706.png
to,
http://linux.softpedia.com/screenshots/Ubuntu-Intrepid-Ibex_1.jpg

Wanna retract your statement?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Features_new_to_Windows_Vista
Your saying the only thing different is theme? I could say the same things about Ubuntu, different theme and updated software, is mostly all there is to a ubuntu release. I don't consider a change to pulseaudio a radical change either, or a automatic proprietory device installer.

Not a Ubuntu hater, love it actually, just hate the amount of FUD going about, learn to live with Windows. Love it's advantages, and disagree with is disadvantages, your amount of incompentance is not going to get Windows out of the market share, you could be more productive and help the Linux community by posing solutions to a better future for Linux and brighter community.

mehaga
March 16th, 2009, 05:03 AM
Dear God... I think I'll have nightmares after seeing that wallpaper :S

abyssius
March 16th, 2009, 05:07 AM
@dekkon

You make a good point, rather dramatically I might add. Those who are inclined to evaluate an OS based solely on "eye candy" would dismiss the default appearance of Ubuntu out of hand. Imagine someone looking at the "brown" screen then comparing it to the default appearance of Vista or OS-X? I've encountered comments like, "It's looks like Windows 95...".

MikeTheC
March 16th, 2009, 05:28 AM
http://seekeronos.blogsome.com/wp-admin/images/anakin_skywalker.jpg
Because we're all practicing letting
the hate flow through us. That's why.

Artificial Intelligence
March 16th, 2009, 05:40 AM
Because when a lot of people first find Linux, they get overly excited and feel like they're rebelling against Microsoft.

I think this is correct. Nothing wrong with that feeling, but I understand why the regulars UF users find it annoying when 5 diffent threads pop up every day or a thread turned into Windows/Microsoft bashing.


I think it would be a good thing to focus on the positive things about Linux and FOSS instead of attacking the negative things of Windows.

Sealbhach
March 16th, 2009, 05:46 AM
I think this is correct. Nothing wrong with that feeling, but I understand why the regulars UF users find it annoying when 5 diffent threads pop up every day or a thread turned into Windows/Microsoft bashing.


Yes, I remember some overwhelming feelings at finding another way, just around a year ago. Elation, fear, giddy joy, even guilt...:D



.

abyssius
March 16th, 2009, 05:47 AM
http://seekeronos.blogsome.com/wp-admin/images/anakin_skywalker.jpg
Because we're all practicing letting
the hate flow through us. That's why.

LOL ...as long as it flows through and doesn't stick...

BTW, Give Dr. Who his spaceship back, he needs to be spreadin' some universal love..:o

FuturePilot
March 16th, 2009, 05:49 AM
I think this is correct. Nothing wrong with that feeling, but I understand why the regulars UF users find it annoying when 5 diffent threads pop up every day or a thread turned into Windows/Microsoft bashing.


I think it would be a good thing to focus on the positive things about Linux and FOSS instead of attacking the negative things of Windows.

I agree.

Giant Speck
March 16th, 2009, 05:54 AM
I agree that when I started using Ubuntu, I thought that it was the best thing since sliced bread, and I would take any opportunity to bash Windows in any way I could. But that attitude cooled down after a while.

From what I have seen, Community Cafe is becoming more like a high school girls' restroom. It's becoming less of an enjoyable place to hang out because the amount of gossiping, complaining, and bashing has risen so rapidly.

I like Windows and Linux. I happily use both on my computer. Am I going to try to preach why I like either one or shove baseless opinions down someone's throat? No. Am I going to blindly say that one is better than the other and then bash others for not agreeing with me? No. Am I going pride get in the way of helping people on these forums? Hell no. Hell, I couldn't even use the Windows logo in my avatar without people jumping to conclusions about my personality and bashing me, so I got rid of it.

Let's not become a community based on hate. It will get us nowhere.

dbbolton
March 16th, 2009, 07:00 AM
You should see the Ubuntu bashing threads on the Debian forums.

Artificial Intelligence
March 16th, 2009, 08:41 AM
You should see the Ubuntu bashing threads on the Debian forums.

Guess it's human nature to bashing stuff :mrgreen:

On KDE based distros they bash gnome.
On Gnome based distros they bash KDE.
On rpm based distros they bash deb.
On deb based distros they bash rpm.
Linux users bash Mac and Windows.
Windows users bash Mac.
Mac users bash Windows and Linux.
vim, Emacs and nano followers is bashing eachother.
Arch is bashing Gentoo.
Gentoo is bashing Arch.
X distro bashing Y Distro and Y distro bashing X disto.
The Teletubbies bashing Barney and Barney is bashing The Teletubbies.

Bash, bash, bash, bash.


Properly the "pact gen" which comes out in the light. Us vs. them.

swoll1980
March 16th, 2009, 08:50 AM
Guess it's human nature to bashing stuff :mrgreen:

On KDE based distros they bash gnome.
On Gnome based distros they bash KDE.
On rpm based distros they bash deb.
On deb based distros they bash rpm.
Linux users bash Mac and Windows.
Windows users bash Mac.
Mac users bash Windows and Linux.
vim, Emacs and nano followers is bashing eachother.
Arch is bashing Gentoo.
Gentoo is bashing Arch.
X distro bashing Y Distro and Y distro bashing X disto.
The Teletubbies bashing Barney and Barney is bashing The Teletubbies.

Bash, bash, bash, bash.


Politics as usual ;)

mips
March 16th, 2009, 08:54 AM
Politics as usual ;)

I thought the CoC forbid politics?

Artificial Intelligence
March 16th, 2009, 09:00 AM
I thought the CoC forbid politics?

It's forbidden if it's not Linux related.

Primefalcon
March 16th, 2009, 09:04 AM
what's wrong with bash I use it all the time....

learn how to bash properly
http://www.linuxdevices.com/files/misc/9780596526788_lrg.jpg

sharon.gmc
March 16th, 2009, 09:41 AM
It can also be because there are a lot of reasons to bash about them. . . or maybe they want to bash here because a lot of people are doing it here. . .

Naiki Muliaina
March 16th, 2009, 10:20 AM
Much though theres still lots of it here, i have actually got to say considering Ubuntu's community size, the bashing is not that bad here. Ive seen smaller forums on other distros/OS's where there is some real venom constantly spat at Ubuntu & Windows.

On my preferences, i quite liked XP, i hate Microsoft. I just choose not to bash them whenever i get the opportunity. Once you've expressed your dislike of something, you don't need to express it every 5 minutes to get the message across. If you do you will very quickly find everyone gets bored snotless of you. ^^

karellen
March 16th, 2009, 10:30 AM
Lately there have been a LOT of Windows/Microsoft bashing threads. Can someone explain why?

many people have a lot of spare time to waste

Ozor Mox
March 16th, 2009, 10:42 AM
I think this is correct. Nothing wrong with that feeling, but I understand why the regulars UF users find it annoying when 5 diffent threads pop up every day or a thread turned into Windows/Microsoft bashing.


I think it would be a good thing to focus on the positive things about Linux and FOSS instead of attacking the negative things of Windows.

Totally agree. Most of the more seasoned members of this community find the Windows bashing annoying, but sometimes it is just new Ubuntu users getting over excited about what they have just found. There is absolutely nothing wrong with being interested in an operating system. Some people here repeatedly like to point out that it is just an operating system, which is very true and there certainly are more important things in life, but for people with an interest in computers this is something that a community will talk about and argue about with a bit of fire. These new users need to be gently reminded that focusing on the negative aspects of Microsoft is not a good way to gain favour in this community (as can clearly be seen when a Windows bashing thread is started), and this phase will soon pass. Also, I think Ubuntu can represent a bit more than just an operating system (software freedom, the philosophy, etc. but I won't get in to that).

There have been a lot of Windows bashing threads here recently, but I think what annoys me even more than those is the replies of some people who seem to associate the entire community with such behaviour and feel it necessary to attack the Windows/Microsoft bashers with attacks of their own on Ubuntu. Now in my opinion, this is a slap in the face to all the people who work hard on improving Ubuntu (bug reporters, tech support on the forum, developers/documentation/artists etc.) with the flimsy and misguided excuse that they are fighting a community of elitist Linux users who foam at the mouth with hatred of the evil Microsoft empire.

Rant over :)

smbm
March 16th, 2009, 10:46 AM
I think it would be a good thing to focus on the positive things about Linux and FOSS instead of attacking the negative things of Windows.

I totally echo this sentiment. I think it'd be great if the forums had a mainly positive message.

orethrius
March 16th, 2009, 10:48 AM
From what I have seen, Community Cafe is becoming more like a high school girls' restroom.

I'll have you know, there are high school girls that'd take issue with that statement. ;)

saulgoode
March 16th, 2009, 10:59 AM
Why all the love for Microsoft?

Artificial Intelligence
March 16th, 2009, 11:05 AM
Why all the love for Microsoft?

No one says to love Microsoft, but it can be tiresome with with these bashing threads.

saulgoode
March 16th, 2009, 11:08 AM
No one says to love Microsoft, but it can be tiresome with with these bashing threads.
It is equally tiresome, and equally defective, to have criticism of Microsoft characterized as "hate".

k2t0f12d
March 16th, 2009, 11:17 AM
All the complaints about Micro$oft are well documented in posts to community forums, mailing lists, etc. around the Internet. You can read those and evaluate each argument's justification without asking us to repeat it for you in a GNU+Linux forum.

Vince4Amy
March 16th, 2009, 11:36 AM
Windows and Microsoft are fine with me and I'm really enjoying Vista, when I switched to Linux it was because of XP not Vista. And when Vista came out I switched back to Windows again, why? because it worked and I could do everything I Could on Linux and more.

I think it is incredibly nasty when people say they want MS To go out of business, did you rude people not consider the huge job loss it will cause to many people, how can you be so thoughtless.

The other day I pointed out some flaws (Not bashed) but flaws in Ubuntu and some members agreed with me, Windows is not the only OS with room for improvement and people need to consider this before Windows bashing. And now the truth is Windows is the most widely used OS and that's how it is and I really don't think that will change soon.

But certainly this Microsoft bashing Has got to stop instead of focusing on bashing Microsoft, the community should be focusing on both the strength of Linux and the flaws/bugs/erors in Linux, bashing Microsoft is at best wasting time and it's not going to get Linux anywhere.

I'm posting this from OpenSuSE which is a damn good system, but again it's not without it's bugs, any OS has bugs and people need to accept that, bashing the competition (especially when the competition is absolutely massive in comparison) is just going to us nowhere.

Ozor Mox
March 16th, 2009, 11:53 AM
+1 to everything Vince4Amy, but don't forget that there are plenty of people here who are trying to improve Ubuntu by reporting bugs, testing alphas, helping new users and so on. There are also plenty of people here who find Ubuntu to be solid and reliable, while of course not flawless, but then what is? These Microsoft bashers tend to be the small but perhaps a little too vocal minority, who may yet turn in to positive contributors.

I find this forum intolerant of any baseless criticism, whatever it is directed towards. It is definitely not one-sided.

rasmus91
March 16th, 2009, 12:00 PM
I guess people need to get their frustration out...

I've used so much time trying to fix problems in windows my self, and then ending up formatting the computer again.

When i switched a 100% Linux, i also had to get my frustration out.

That said, i still use alot of chances to say a lot of bad things about M$
I guess my main reason is that i think Bill Gates is an idiot. because of what he did in his early years with microsoft.

pwnst*r
March 16th, 2009, 12:26 PM
there almost needs to be a specific sub forum for OS bashing. a void if you will.

dbbolton
March 16th, 2009, 01:51 PM
Guess it's human nature to bashing stuff :mrgreen:


Without question. And there are probably some sound sociobiological explanations for it.

cmat
March 16th, 2009, 02:00 PM
People need to turn all this negative energy into something positive. Instead of bashing Microsoft, files some bug reports or write an applet. Also people that are offended by MS bashing, get real and quit bringing light to it. "I really don't like it but I can't stop posting threads about it."

Faolan84
March 16th, 2009, 02:12 PM
Well I think in part it has to do with Microsoft creating products that consistently suck in regards to Windows. Although I think in a larger way it has more to do with the way Microsoft acts as a corporate villain, it makes them a very easy target to be hated.

The way I see it Microsoft in many ways deserves a lot of the criticism. In a way I classify the quality of their products to be about as good and stable as the services offered by Countrywide (ARM loans), Lehman Brothers, General Motors, or any of the other various companies going bankrupt because they made dumb decisions and offered products nobody wanted. The only difference between them and Microsoft is that the latter controls most of it's market so it holds a de facto monopoly when it comes to mindshare -- especially at a corporate level.

Also, I think a lot of people are mad at Microsoft because they killed off a lot of innovation through questionable (read: illegal) business practices including good companies like: NeXT, Amiga, BeOS, and many others.

smbm
March 16th, 2009, 02:43 PM
Well I think in part it has to do with Microsoft creating products that consistently suck in regards to Windows. Although I think in a larger way it has more to do with the way Microsoft acts as a corporate villain, it makes them a very easy target to be hated.

The way I see it Microsoft in many ways deserves a lot of the criticism. In a way I classify the quality of their products to be about as good and stable as the services offered by Countrywide (ARM loans), Lehman Brothers, General Motors, or any of the other various companies going bankrupt because they made dumb decisions and offered products nobody wanted. The only difference between them and Microsoft is that the latter controls most of it's market so it holds a de facto monopoly when it comes to mindshare -- especially at a corporate level.

Also, I think a lot of people are mad at Microsoft because they killed off a lot of innovation through questionable (read: illegal) business practices including good companies like: NeXT, Amiga, BeOS, and many others.

That's all fine, I guess I can understand why some would have no love for Microsoft.

What I'm wondering though is whether this forum is the right place for people to be expressing that?

Do you not think it reflects badly on our community?

Vorian Grey
March 16th, 2009, 02:49 PM
The way I see it Microsoft in many ways deserves a lot of the criticism.

<snip>

Also, I think a lot of people are mad at Microsoft because they killed off a lot of innovation through questionable (read: illegal) business practices including good companies like: NeXT, Amiga, BeOS, and many others.

Exactly. Microsoft has not been a good neighbor. Also, look no further than Internet Explorer to see how they use technology badly. It has to be the worst browser every invented and yet due to MS using questionable tactics it is the most used.

For every good thing they have done they have done 10 bad things.

JohnFH
March 16th, 2009, 02:51 PM
That's all fine, I guess I can understand why some would have no love for Microsoft.

What I'm wondering though is whether this forum is the right place for people to be expressing that?

Do you not think it reflects badly on our community?

Yes. It's tiring and also annoys me from the point of view that Apple are a lot lot worse than Microsoft when it comes to business practices yet Microsoft gets a harder time of it.

Sealbhach
March 16th, 2009, 03:05 PM
Yes. It's tiring and also annoys me from the point of view that Apple are a lot lot worse than Microsoft when it comes to business practices yet Microsoft gets a harder time of it.

They're not a monopoly.

They actually make decent products (although overpriced).

They do innovate.

.

smartboyathome
March 16th, 2009, 03:09 PM
It is equally tiresome, and equally defective, to have criticism of Microsoft characterized as "hate".

It is just that much of it isn't "criticism", but right out bashing. Such stuff as Micros***, Micro$oft, M$, etc, all bash Microsoft but don't offer any criticism. Also, there has been a rise in statements which don't offer any criticism at all such as "Why would anyone use Microsoft? It sucks."

bakedbeans4life
March 16th, 2009, 03:27 PM
You could turn this thread on it's head.

I have talked with Windows users that as soon as they hear you use Linux, regardless of distro, vent bile and venom from every available orifice. The conversations that have taken place make anything said in these forums mild by comparison. People have threatened me with physical harm if they ever met me face to face.

I have never advocated Linux as a means to solve any Window's problems, Linux has enough of it's own after all. But when four and five letter expletives are aimed in your direction on a regular basis, what conclusions are going to be drawn.

Microsoft as a company and as individuals that run the company HATE Linux and Open Source, make no bones about it. And I think this attitude is fostered and nurtured in it's users.

People these days have short memories (the "Goldfish Syndrome" as I like to call it), Microsoft are disliked for a reason. It is not irrational, it is not baseless or without cause, it is through experience.

Microsoft, it would seem, have apologists everywhere. But let me ask you this, would you love IBM if they acted just as Microsoft do?

Criticize Microsoft and you are on a hiding to nothing, even if that criticism is justified. To criticize Linux is openly encouraged.

Ubuntu reaches out to Windows users, this is to be expected. But unfortunately those people bring their Microsoft centric mindset with them. What Microsoft have gotten away with, and continue to do so, has their user base in denial. For those that question why people such as I are so hostile toward Microsoft, they don't seem to comprehend when I say I remember a world without Microsoft.

smbm
March 16th, 2009, 03:34 PM
You could turn this thread on it's head.

I have talked with Windows users that as soon as they hear you use Linux, regardless of distro, vent bile and venom from every available orifice. The conversations that have taken place make anything said in these forums mild by comparison. People have threatened me with physical harm if they ever met me face to face.

I have never advocated Linux as a means to solve any Window's problems, Linux has enough of it's own after all. But when four and five letter expletives are aimed in your direction on a regular basis, what conclusions are going to be drawn.

Microsoft as a company and as individuals that run the company HATE Linux and Open Source, make no bones about it. And I think this attitude is fostered and nurtured in it's users.

People these days have short memories (the "Goldfish Syndrome" as I like to call it), Microsoft are disliked for a reason. It is not irrational, it is not baseless or without cause, it is through experience.

Microsoft, it would seem, have apologists everywhere. But let me ask you this, would you love IBM if they acted just as Microsoft do?

Criticize Microsoft and you are on a hiding to nothing, even if that criticism is justified. To criticize Linux is openly encouraged.

Ubuntu reaches out to Windows users, this is to be expected. But unfortunately those people bring their Microsoft centric mindset with them. What Microsoft have gotten away with, and continue to do so, has their user base in denial. For those that question why people such as I are so hostile toward Microsoft, they don't seem to comprehend when I say I remember a world without Microsoft.

But does any of this justify the bashing?

Should we not attempt to hold the moral high ground?

sydbat
March 16th, 2009, 03:46 PM
But does any of this justify the bashing?

Should we not attempt to hold the moral high ground?Yes we should hold that high moral ground. Whenever we (as a group or as individuals) allow ourselves to stoop to the levels of "bashing" anything (as in US vs THEM), we remove anything positive that may be said.

When I first started using Ubuntu, I was much like many other new users - overly enthusiastic about taking control of my computer - and did some bashing myself. For that, I apologize.

Since then I (hopefully) have begun to get past that.

My suggestion is simple - ignore the bashing threads. Do not post anything in them. Trolls hate it when they cannot get people to freak out. Maybe then they will go away.

richg
March 16th, 2009, 03:54 PM
There are a lot of angry people in the world and bash anything they can to get attention. End of story. Ignore them.

Rich

bakedbeans4life
March 16th, 2009, 03:54 PM
But does any of this justify the bashing?

Should we not attempt to hold the moral high ground?

I was just trying to make a point as to the nature of why Microsoft is so hated outside of those that use and depend on their products.

What I do realise is that by bashing Microsoft, you are bashing people that use Windows, Office etc. People take these things very personally, as if you are questioning their judgement on choosing Microsoft in the first place.

As to your last statement, can anybody honestly put Microsoft and moral in the same sentence with a straight face?

I am not trying to troll or cause offence, but in not pointing out just what Microsoft has done to become the company you see today, you are saying the end justifies the means.

Only 8 posts, I think some of the forum moderators really like me. :D

smbm
March 16th, 2009, 03:59 PM
I was just trying to make a point as to the nature of why Microsoft is so hated outside of those that use and depend on their products.

What I do realise is that by bashing Microsoft, you are bashing people that use Windows, Office etc. People take these things very personally, as if you are questioning their judgement on choosing Microsoft in the first place.

As to your last statement, can anybody honestly put Microsoft and moral in the same sentence with a straight face?

I am not trying to troll or cause offence, but in not pointing out just what Microsoft has done to become the company you see today, you are saying the end justifies the means.

Only 8 posts, I think some of the forum moderators really like me. :D

I see what you're saying :)

I make no mention of Microsoft's morality though, it is we should who should be conducting ourselves with morals.

By bashing Microsoft do we not make ourselves as bad as them on some levels.

We should strive for better amongst our community.

cmat
March 16th, 2009, 04:07 PM
It is just that much of it isn't "criticism", but right out bashing. Such stuff as Micros***, Micro$oft, M$, etc, all bash Microsoft but don't offer any criticism. Also, there has been a rise in statements which don't offer any criticism at all such as "Why would anyone use Microsoft? It sucks."

Well there is criticism that justifies the hate.
http://www.vanwensveen.nl/rants/microsoft/IhateMS.html

mips
March 16th, 2009, 04:09 PM
Also, I think a lot of people are mad at Microsoft because they killed off a lot of innovation through questionable (read: illegal) business practices including good companies like: NeXT, Amiga, BeOS, and many others.

And then people use utter nonsense to try and backup their claims. Really this crap has to stop.

Apple acquired NeXT and it evolved into OS X. No one killed off NeXT, it's still alive today & it's ex-owner and management got new places at Apple.

Commodore suffered from their own marketing stupidity, they could not sell beer to alcoholics. Their demise was their own doing, they had every oppertunity to be great but they stumbled over their own management incompetence.

AmigaOS & NeXT competed when the market was pretty fair, MS was only in its beginning stages at that time.

BeOS was essentially created with the hope that Apple would buy them as a replacement for their ageing System X OS. They wanted more money than Apple was willing to pay so Apple purchased NeXT. Only in 1998 did they port BeOS to x86 architecture which was too little too late.

Eisenwinter
March 16th, 2009, 04:11 PM
There's nothing wrong with disliking a particular company or product based on rational conclusions but this blind linux zealotry is getting ridiculous.
Big +1.

I think we were all overly-zealous at some point, but most of us grow out of it pretty quickly.

bakedbeans4life
March 16th, 2009, 04:12 PM
I see what you're saying :)

I make no mention of Microsoft though, it is we should who should be conducting ourselves with morals.

By bashing Microsoft do we not make ourselves as bad as them on some levels.

We should strive for better amongst our community.

I think the Linux and Open Source community should remain vigilant as to the legal and illegal threat posed by Microsoft. In an ideal world morals and ethics supersede any other consideration, unfortunately we do not live in an ideal world.

Is treating Microsoft with a healthy degree of caution bashing? It would appear so judging by some of the comments posted in this thread.

smbm
March 16th, 2009, 04:18 PM
I think the Linux and Open Source community should remain vigilant as to the legal and illegal threat posed by Microsoft. In an ideal world morals and ethics supersede any other consideration, unfortunately we do not live in an ideal world.

Is treating Microsoft with a healthy degree of caution bashing? It would appear so judging by some of the comments posted in this thread.

I think vigilance and caution are one thing but expressing hatred is another IMHO.

Should we not strive for an ideal world as much as we can?

I totally see your point too though, it's good to have a reasoned debate :)

If I wanted to open a can of worms and play devil's advocate I'm sure I could dig up some questionable things done in the name of free software too.

ice60
March 16th, 2009, 04:20 PM
you should have to declare your age when you post here that way you'd understand all the hate. there was a thread the other day about windows ripping off linux again. it was about software that isn't even in linux lol, called Microsoft rips off Linux... Again...
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1095751

(age 2)

bakedbeans4life
March 16th, 2009, 04:26 PM
I think vigilance and caution are one thing but expressing hatred is another IMHO.

Should we not strive for an ideal world as much as we can?

I totally see your point too though, it's good to have a reasoned debate :)

If I wanted to open a can of worms and play devil's advocate I'm sure I could dig up some questionable things done in the name of free software too.

I would say anything regarding Linux and Open Source, both positive and negative, is out in the open for all to see.

The same cannot be said of Microsoft (and other large corporations too, before somebody wonders why I singled them out) . I doubt you would ever know half of what transpires behind closed doors without signing an NDA.

smbm
March 16th, 2009, 04:35 PM
I would say anything regarding Linux and Open Source, both positive and negative, is out in the open for all to see.

The same cannot be said of Microsoft (and other large corporations too, before somebody wonders why I singled them out) . I doubt you would ever know half of what transpires behind closed doors without signing an NDA.

That's a fair point. I think I should re-affirm just for the record that I'm not defending Microsoft either. I have a mild disdain for them and don't (directly) use any of their products.

I'm still of the opinion that the hatred and bashing has no place on these forums though.

Vorian Grey
March 16th, 2009, 04:39 PM
I think vigilance and caution are one thing but expressing hatred is another IMHO.
Nearly everyone here came from the Windows world. It's not like we've never used anything but Linux. So it seems to me the question is why do former users hate Microsoft and their products so much? In some cases it may be blind hatred but in a lot of cases there are some very valid reasons, if one will but listen.

In general I dislike Microsoft because of their corporate attitude. They are bullies. In specific, I dislike WGA and having to prove I am not a criminal. That's the main reason I stopped using Windows. I will never use a OS of any kind that makes me prove I am who I say I am.

Yes, they make some good products. Office is great although it is vastly overpriced. .Net is a great platform. However, the good they do is over shadowed by the bad they do. For example, instead of using international standards, they create their own standards and force people to support both. The Windows platform is by far the least secure. And so on.

bakedbeans4life
March 16th, 2009, 04:58 PM
That's a fair point. I think I should re-affirm just for the record that I'm not defending Microsoft either. I have a mild disdain for them and don't (directly) use any of their products.

I'm still of the opinion that the hatred and bashing has no place on these forums though.

When visiting a Microsoft forum I never even mentioned Linux directly, I accidentally said I stored my mp3s on an ext3 partition. This is where the fun began. And this is just one example of the **** I've had to put up with when dealing with Microsoft's users. This is not to say they are all this way, most are just reasonable down-to-earth people just getting on with life.

Outright hatred of Microsoft has connotations of how many fundamentalist Muslims view the west or Evangelical Christians on the issue of evolution. It has spawned an almost religious fervor.

I dislike Microsoft, I do not hate them. There is a difference. Perhaps my own experience With Microsoft and their users has tainted my opinion, but I can only speak from that experience.

Measured and reasonable critical discussion about Microsoft and the methods they employ to try and counter Linux is a topic that does belong on a forum such as this. Blind zealotry has no place here.

Faolan84
March 16th, 2009, 04:58 PM
A lot of ex-MS users bash MS because once they use Linux they realize how convoluted of an OS Windows really is. Linux is much easier to install, manage, and maintain. The help communities are plenty and useful. Plus the applications and environments are well designed with the user in mind.

Secondly, system recovery on Linux is much more simple than on Windows and the OS is much more stable. In addition, you don't have to waste your time on spyware, virus, and firewall programs.

Lastly, Windows seems designed to irk people. Poor design decisions make simple work harder than it has to be and that causes a large body of criticism. I'm not say that Linux is perfect in comparison, but it sure is much better designed and friendlier to setup and use.

smbm
March 16th, 2009, 05:09 PM
Measured and reasonable critical discussion about Microsoft and the methods they employ to try and counter Linux is a topic that does belong on a forum such as this. Blind zealotry has no place here.

I agree 100% :D

airtonix
March 16th, 2009, 05:15 PM
Because when a lot of people first find Linux, they get overly excited and feel like they're rebelling against Microsoft.

Bit like concentration camp prisioners who are recently set free...

You know, it also reminds me of things my mother would relay to me that he father had told her about when he was a prisioner of war during the korean war. Some of the people who were starved beyond belief, when they were back amongst the "freedom" of their teammates would eat so much that they would damage themselves.

And then there is the case of prisoners who are in captivity who refuse to believe or realise the reality of the situation they are in.


Linux is much easier to install, manage, and maintain.While i agree with you, when one takes the (misguided) option in tafe and uni to use the free microsoft software and failed to learn how to grep in linux etc etc, it might not seem so easy because everything isn't laid out for a person.

There is another subtle mechanic at operation here and it isn't too different from getting 16year olds hook on heroine before they know better.

bakedbeans4life
March 16th, 2009, 05:22 PM
Bit like concentration camp prisioners who are recently set free...

You know, it also reminds me of things my mother would relay to me that he father had told her about when he was a prisioner of war during the korean war. Some of the people who were starved beyond belief, when they were back amongst the "freedom" of their teammates would eat so much that they would damage themselves.

And then there is the case of prisoners who are in captivity who refuse to believe or realise the reality of the situation they are in.

"And then there is the case of prisoners who are in captivity who refuse to believe or realise the reality of the situation they are in."

Damn, if that last statement didn't remind me of another.

"The only enemy of freedom is a happy slave"

But for the life in me I couldn't tell you where I heard it

RichardCain
March 16th, 2009, 05:34 PM
Blind zealotry has no place here.

I'm not sure I can think of anywhere it DOES have a place.

Also, I think ex-MS users are so anti-MS in the same way that ex-smokers tend to be more anti-smoking than non-smokers. Generally, born-againers are more devout than the common or garden variety.
:P

lykwydchykyn
March 16th, 2009, 05:56 PM
It's a phase. They grow out of it. Can any long-time Linux user really attest to not going through an "I hate Microsoft" phase?

If you want to bring people out of that phase, lead by example. Some folks seem to want to make it their personal crusade to take on these MS-haters by starting thread criticizing Ubuntu or extolling the virtues of Windows. IMO, all that does is generate more noise from the fringe. You're not gonna convince some people, so why stir them up and make the forum look even worse?

Yownanymous
March 16th, 2009, 05:57 PM
I bash Microsoft because I've been stuck with their rubbishy system for years and have been tricked into thinking it was the only thing there. I'm sick of their bullying tactics and corporate scams.

oasmar1
March 16th, 2009, 06:10 PM
Well, I bought a computer with Vista on it and my computer ran it perfectly, but I read an article on the internet that told me Vista was slow, then I realised it was slow. I then read that it was bloated, suddenly realising it was also bloated. THEN I read that it had DRM and decided that this DRM had been stopping me from doing anything. After all this Bill Gates knocked on my door and kicked me in the nuts.

(obviously, don't take this seriously)

k2t0f12d
March 16th, 2009, 06:22 PM
It's a phase. They grow out of it. Can any long-time Linux user really attest to not going through an "I hate Microsoft" phase?

That presupposes their reasons. It isn't a phase for me. At least until Micro$oft releases GPL'd source.

bakedbeans4life
March 16th, 2009, 06:22 PM
Well, I bought a computer with Vista on it and my computer ran it perfectly, but I read an article on the internet that told me Vista was slow, then I realised it was slow. I then read that it was bloated, suddenly realising it was also bloated. THEN I read that it had DRM and decided that this DRM had been stopping me from doing anything. After all this Bill Gates knocked on my door and kicked me in the nuts.

(obviously, don't take this seriously)

Although what you say is tongue in cheek, there are people that have legitimate issues with Microsoft products.

But many individuals here dismiss these concerns and just label it "Microsoft bashing!".

I suppose it is this single fact that I find surprising.

racerraul
March 16th, 2009, 06:40 PM
Compare windows of now to 5 years ago vista/7 to XP.... not much of a difference except for a skin/slight improvement, no huge radical differences.
The big jump in improvement for Windows was from 95/98/ME to 2000/XP. Because the later was based on NT. A much more stable OS compared to their previous crap. Although I must admit that my only gripe with the 95/98/ME products was a lack of communication from the OS when things went wrong.


I bash Microsoft because I've been stuck with their rubbishy system for years and have been tricked into thinking it was the only thing there. I'm sick of their bullying tactics and corporate scams.
Dude I have no idea how you could support that arguement. If you were tricked by anyone it might have been yourself. The choices have been out there for a long time and those that researched their choices experienced the freedom of choice... if you didn't research your options and stuck ith MS products out of convenience, then admit it as so...

No one put a gun to your head.

LOL

kidux
March 16th, 2009, 06:46 PM
It is equally tiresome, and equally defective, to have criticism of Microsoft characterized as "hate".
"MicroSucks Winbloz is crap!!1!!!" is not criticism, it's just pure ignorant hate.

"Windows is less secure than Linux because..." is criticism.

We are annoyed by the former, and agree and can converse with the latter.

bowens44
March 16th, 2009, 06:49 PM
Lately there have been a LOT of Windows/Microsoft bashing threads. Can someone explain why?

because Bill Gates is Satan and Windows is a demon infested hack

namegame
March 16th, 2009, 06:50 PM
"Windows is less secure than Linux because..." is criticism.


Of course that is assuming what follows the "because" is equally valid and factual.

kidux
March 16th, 2009, 06:52 PM
But does any of this justify the bashing?

Should we not attempt to hold the moral high ground?
That's been my point of view forever. We, as lovers of our freedom given by FOSS, should not resort to the kinds of actions presented by less informed users, who are not necessarily exclusivly Windows users. As has been pointed out, all OS' have problems, but FOSS provides users with a choice, and that's the difference we should concentrate on.

kidux
March 16th, 2009, 06:56 PM
Of course that is assuming what follows the "because" is equally valid and factual.
Indeed, but I think you get the point. Having a thoughtful discussion on the merits of an OS is one thing, but to outright call it names is downright bigotry, and we wouldn't (at least I wouldn't) condone calling people racist slurs, so why should we tolerate it in a digital format?

Giant Speck
March 16th, 2009, 07:06 PM
Of course that is assuming what follows the "because" is equally valid and factual.

Well, it's better that the "because" is there in the first place.

bakedbeans4life
March 16th, 2009, 07:16 PM
That's been my point of view forever. We, as lovers of our freedom given by FOSS, should not resort to the kinds of actions presented by less informed users, who are not necessarily exclusivly Windows users. As has been pointed out, all OS' have problems, but FOSS provides users with a choice, and that's the difference we should concentrate on.

And it is that choice that Microsoft is actively trying to destroy, reason enough to dislike them I think. Burying your head in the sand or looking away because you don't like what you see is never a valid way of dealing with the truth. Microsoft is a convicted monopoly, this is a matter of fact. The excuses people make on their behalf is staggering.

How you express your dislike for Microsoft should be conducted in a polite and cordial manner. Spouting "M$ killed my rabbit, then ate it!" only plays into the hands of Microsoft. They can then point fingers and say "You see, Linux is used by dweebs and freetards.".

Denial at what Microsoft has done and continues to do only serves to further their agenda. But calling them childish names and pulling funny faces behind their back also adds more ammunition to fire in Linux's direction.

namegame
March 16th, 2009, 07:23 PM
Indeed, but I think you get the point. Having a thoughtful discussion on the merits of an OS is one thing, but to outright call it names is downright bigotry, and we wouldn't (at least I wouldn't) condone calling people racist slurs, so why should we tolerate it in a digital format?

I definitely agree with you. I'm just bringing up situations like, "Linux is more secure than Windows because there are no viruses for Linux." Of course, that is rather uninformed. Linux can carry Windows viruses in attachments and other things like that.

I could go on forever about that but here is not the place. I just don't like it when people make misinformed justifications.

Faolan84
March 16th, 2009, 07:26 PM
They can then point fingers and say "You see, Linux is used by dweebs and freetards.".

I've generally found that people who insult people using name calling and appending -tard to various nouns and adjectives. The mainstream media tried that with Ron Paul during the election -- he didn't win, but all the base level insults being thrown around by the media did help him get more exposure because people decided to see why they were mocking him and his "Paul-tard" supporters.

Same goes for Linux users. If you resort to name calling and petty attacks you will discredit yourself because people will discover what you are saying isn't true or is a hyperbole.

Icehuck
March 16th, 2009, 07:30 PM
Microsoft is a convicted monopoly, this is a matter of fact.

Only in the European Union and not the rest of the world. So while they may have violated laws there, they haven't been convicted of anything in the US. So as far as I'm concerned they aren't violating any laws that pertain to me or my country.

Edit- I'm not trying to defend them, I'm just tossing out the fact that "convicted monopoly" doesn't pertain to the world as a whole.

smbm
March 16th, 2009, 07:33 PM
Only in the European Union and not the rest of the world. So while they may have violated laws there, they haven't been convicted of anything in the US. So as far as I'm concerned they aren't violating any laws that pertain to me or my country.

That doesn't change the fact that they are a convicted monopoly.

Vorian Grey
March 16th, 2009, 07:34 PM
Only in the European Union and not the rest of the world.
No, they are a convicted monopoly in the US as well.

lykwydchykyn
March 16th, 2009, 07:40 PM
That presupposes their reasons. It isn't a phase for me. At least until Micro$oft releases GPL'd source.

Fair enough, but I guess from what I've seen people either come to a "peace" with Microsoft, or they transform blind hate into an informed, reasoned (but still decidedly negative) opinion.

I don't mean to imply that in getting over the hatred you start loving Microsoft or what they do. I don't have a high opinion of Microsoft as a company, or their products. But I make an effort to limit my criticism to things I can back up with experience or other data, and to keep it civil.

bakedbeans4life
March 16th, 2009, 07:44 PM
Only in the European Union and not the rest of the world. So while they may have violated laws there, they haven't been convicted of anything in the US. So as far as I'm concerned they aren't violating any laws that pertain to me or my country.

Edit- I'm not trying to defend them, I'm just tossing out the fact that "convicted monopoly" doesn't pertain to the world as a whole.

The American DoJ convicted Microsoft under anti-trust violations.

http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases/f3800/msjudgex.htm

Heavy going I know, but they were convicted. Then the recently elected Bush administration chose to just give them a slap on the wrist.

I assume you are American.

smbm
March 16th, 2009, 07:48 PM
Edit- I'm not trying to defend them, I'm just tossing out the fact that "convicted monopoly" doesn't pertain to the world as a whole.

The ruling may not apply in other countries but the fact would stand that they have been convicted of crimes pertaining to monopolies.

It's semantics but I think it's a point worth making.

Icehuck
March 16th, 2009, 07:54 PM
The American DoJ convicted Microsoft under anti-trust violations.

http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases/f3800/msjudgex.htm

Heavy going I know, but they were convicted. Then the recently elected Bush administration chose to just give them a slap on the wrist.

I assume you are American.

From here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft


On September 26, 2000, after Judge Jackson issued his findings of fact,[11] the plaintiffs (to save time) attempted to send Microsoft's appeal directly to the U.S. Supreme Court. However, the Supreme Court declined to hear the appeal and sent the case to a federal appeals court.

The D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals overturned Judge Jackson's rulings against Microsoft. This was partly because the Appellate court had adopted a "drastically altered scope of liability" under which the Remedies could be taken, and also partly due to the embargoed interviews Judge Jackson had given to the news media while he was still hearing the case, in violation of the Code of Conduct for US Judges.[13] Judge Jackson did not attend the D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals hearing, in which the appeals court judges accused him of unethical conduct and determined he should have recused himself from the case.[14]

This was done while Clinton was still in the White House. I like to blame Bush for everything but this one I can't.

On November 2, 2001, the DOJ reached an agreement with Microsoft to settle the case. < - This would be the part under Bush but it was right after 9/11 so I don't think he was really paying attention to this.

Honestly, after all this I don't even know what point I was trying to make. I guess "convicted monopoly" just seemed so generic when it's really a global market.

dragos240
March 16th, 2009, 07:54 PM
I think the reason is becuase of loss of subforums, a few people going back to windows, et cetera. And it seems even before that it's been going for a long time.

kidux
March 16th, 2009, 08:05 PM
And it is that choice that Microsoft is actively trying to destroy, reason enough to dislike them I think. Burying your head in the sand or looking away because you don't like what you see is never a valid way of dealing with the truth. Microsoft is a convicted monopoly, this is a matter of fact. The excuses people make on their behalf is staggering.

How you express your dislike for Microsoft should be conducted in a polite and cordial manner. Spouting "M$ killed my rabbit, then ate it!" only plays into the hands of Microsoft. They can then point fingers and say "You see, Linux is used by dweebs and freetards.".

Denial at what Microsoft has done and continues to do only serves to further their agenda. But calling them childish names and pulling funny faces behind their back also adds more ammunition to fire in Linux's direction.
I agree. I dislike MS' business practices in the extreme, going so far as to take back Oblivion and Fallout 3 because of idealogical differences with Bethesda's dealings with MS. Burying your head in the sand is one thing, and is every bit as destructive as "hate crimes". Resorting to "violence" rarely improves anything in general; rather taking a stand, voting with your wallet, and presenting a straight forward, thought out statement is the only real way of changing the status quo.


I definitely agree with you. I'm just bringing up situations like, "Linux is more secure than Windows because there are no viruses for Linux." Of course, that is rather uninformed. Linux can carry Windows viruses in attachments and other things like that.

I could go on forever about that but here is not the place. I just don't like it when people make misinformed justifications.
You bring up a good point, but even that kind of misinformed opinion is better than the alternative. At least with misinformation, the person in question is more likely to be open to a thoughtful discussion on the subject.

namegame
March 16th, 2009, 08:14 PM
You bring up a good point, but even that kind of misinformed opinion is better than the alternative. At least with misinformation, the person in question is more likely to be open to a thoughtful discussion on the subject.

Definitely true. Reminds me of a quote I read somewhere, "It's not wrong not knowing, but it is wrong not wanting to know." It's kind of confusing. :P

bakedbeans4life
March 16th, 2009, 08:18 PM
This was done while Clinton was still in the White House. I like to blame Bush for everything but this one I can't.

On November 2, 2001, the DOJ reached an agreement with Microsoft to settle the case. < - This would be the part under Bush but it was right after 9/11 so I don't think he was really paying attention to this.

So in other words, they were convicted for anti-trust violations (among other things), but never sentenced. They settled out of court but the Finding of Fact still stood.

Don't you just love the semantics of legalese, everything open to interpretation and spin.

A quote taken from an article on another website:

http://www.internetnews.com/bus-news/article.php/3_936241

"The DOJ's settlement was brokered by Bush administration appointee Assistant Attorney General Charles A. James, head of the DOJ's antitrust division. But career officials at the Justice Department, who had pursued the case since the beginning, displayed their apparent displeasure with the agreement by not signing it."

saulgoode
March 16th, 2009, 08:19 PM
"MicroSucks Winbloz is crap!!1!!!" is not criticism, it's just pure ignorant hate.

"Windows is less secure than Linux because..." is criticism.

We are annoyed by the former, and agree and can converse with the latter.
And what level of conversational skills are exhibited by inflamatory phrases such as "pure ignorant hate"?

Is your annoyance sufficient justification for you being permitted to annoy other members of the community? Because I doubt I'm the only person who finds it extremely annoying when threads are taken entirely off-topic and even driven to closure because one or two members' unremitting insistence on expressing how they are "annoyed" that someone put a dollar sign in M$, or misspelled Windoze, or suggested that Microsoft has a long history of engaging in unethical behavior.

What about the 99% of the forums who just want to "converse" about things without every discussion devolving into a forensic battle over colloquialisms? If you feel a post is overly vitriolic in its language, report it; by responding it you are being disrespectful to both the community by interfering with their discussion, and to the Staff by making their job of moderating the forums more difficult.

kidux
March 16th, 2009, 08:29 PM
And what level of conversational skills are exhibited by inflamatory phrases such as "pure ignorant hate"?

Is your annoyance sufficient justification for you being permitted to annoy other members of the community? Because I doubt I'm the only person who finds it extremely annoying when threads are taken entirely off-topic and even driven to closure because one or two members' unremitting insistence on expressing how they are "annoyed" that someone put a dollar sign in M$, or misspelled Windoze, or suggested that Microsoft has a long history of engaging in unethical behavior.

What about the 99% of the forums who just want to "converse" about things without every discussion devolving into a forensic battle over colloquialisms? If you feel a post is overly vitriolic in its language, report it; by responding it you are being disrespectful to both the community by interfering with their discussion, and to the Staff by making their job of moderating the forums more difficult.
Are you saying that you find it appropriate for threads to be opened solely for the purpose of saying "M$ Windoz sucks!!1!" et al? Doesn't that kind of thing cause more problems with the moderation of the site due to them having to close/delete the multitude of such threads, as well as respond to the reported posts in the first place?

While I agree with you about the grammatical insistance from some of the members (which I usually just gloss over anyway ;) ), I'm refering to the threads in which the whole purpose is to spread FUD, much like the MS "Get the Facts" ad campaign.

odda
March 16th, 2009, 08:46 PM
Who knows, Rebelion coolness against corporation (microsoft)?

billgoldberg
March 16th, 2009, 10:03 PM
Lately there have been a LOT of Windows/Microsoft bashing threads. Can someone explain why?

The buzz around Windows 7 is growing?

Giant Speck
March 16th, 2009, 10:05 PM
The buzz around Windows 7 is growing?

Possible, but I've noticed that the Windows 7 bashing, most notably the "Windows 7 stole from KDE!" threads, peaked a few months ago and hasn't really risen since.

.Maleficus.
March 16th, 2009, 10:08 PM
Because when a lot of people first find Linux, they get overly excited and feel like they're rebelling against Microsoft.
Let me just say PLUS >9000.

Linux is cool and all (I've used various distros for going on 5 years now) but people just get into an "omg ubantu is so cool M$ is weaksause" thing that I just don't understand. Maybe I'm one of the few but I don't hate Microsoft or Apple and happen to like both Vista and my iPhone. I think Visual Studio is the best IDE I've ever used and that Macs are ultra sexy.

And the spelling mistakes were intentional ;). I've seen "Ubuntu" written as "Ubantu" so many times I want to throw up.

Twitch6000
March 16th, 2009, 10:23 PM
There's nothing wrong with disliking a particular company or product based on rational conclusions but this blind linux zealotry is getting ridiculous.

+1 to this

s.fox
March 16th, 2009, 10:27 PM
There's nothing wrong with disliking a particular company or product based on rational conclusions but this blind linux zealotry is getting ridiculous.

I concur. I think it also makes the ubuntu and by extension the linux community look bad. How would an outsider to Ubuntu view all this bashing? Its not exactly friendly is it?

bakedbeans4life
March 16th, 2009, 10:41 PM
The buzz around Windows 7 is growing?

Windows 7 is just the next version of Windows, and yes I have installed and tested it (build 7048 I believe).

I think Microsoft folk are so desperate for Windows 7 to not be another Vista, that they hype it up and then they start to believe this self-induced hype.

Windows 7 is just a slightly less resource intensive Vista that has had it's code tweaked and optimized a little, nothing more.

There is nothing wrong in that, but lets not pretend Windows 7 is a revolutionary new product.

And any buzz has been artificially manufactured by Microsoft themselves.

Maybe if I'm not too skint I may buy a copy, probably OEM. But as with all Microsoft software I'll wait until the first service pack.

lykwydchykyn
March 16th, 2009, 10:42 PM
Can someone give a link or a set of specific criteria for what constitutes "blind linux zealotry"? Because I think everyone has different things in mind when they hear people objecting to "Microsoft bashing".

And in any case, what does anyone want to be done about it? Delete posts? Close threads? Ban users? Scold people who say mean things, and take posts further off topic?

C!oud
March 16th, 2009, 11:15 PM
Can someone give a link or a set of specific criteria for what constitutes "blind linux zealotry"? Because I think everyone has different things in mind when they hear people objecting to "Microsoft bashing".

And in any case, what does anyone want to be done about it? Delete posts? Close threads? Ban users? Scold people who say mean things, and take posts further off topic?

Simple you see it happen all the time, newcomers to linux decide to bash Windows over points which they don't even understand but they see other people do it so they think it must be right. Blind linux zealotry is not even understanding the argument you are making against Windows but you instead make it up by referring to Microsoft as M$ , Windblows, or any of that other crap. Use of that kind of language tells me that that person doesn't know how to hold a sane rational discussion and quite frankly can sometimes show the level of maturity of certain users. That being said I have no special love for Windows over Linux otherwise I wouldn't use Unix-like operating systems and I have my reasons and own personal criticisms of Windows and why I prefer other OSs but I also know where to draw the line and say hey linux isn't perfect either and if it works for some people then that's perfectly fine.

smbm
March 16th, 2009, 11:19 PM
Can someone give a link or a set of specific criteria for what constitutes "blind linux zealotry"? Because I think everyone has different things in mind when they hear people objecting to "Microsoft bashing".

And in any case, what does anyone want to be done about it? Delete posts? Close threads? Ban users? Scold people who say mean things, and take posts further off topic?

I think we should at least encourage people to conduct themselves with a little more decorum and politeness.

linuxisevolution
March 16th, 2009, 11:43 PM
I use both Ubuntu and the Windows 7 beta (excellent OS btw)

That's why God invented dual booting.

Dual booting is not holy, it is evil!:popcorn:

KiwiNZ
March 16th, 2009, 11:49 PM
I have just moved two personal attacks out of this thread to the jail.

If it continues I will close this thread

bakedbeans4life
March 16th, 2009, 11:50 PM
I have just moved two personal attacks out of this thread to the jail.

If it continues I will close this thread

Fair enough, point taken.

sports fan Matt
March 16th, 2009, 11:54 PM
Vista just didnt seem to play well..kept bluescreening when updating and using Firefox...

Name change
March 17th, 2009, 12:07 AM
Wow what just happened before I logged in I read a microsoft bash on this very topic, very ironic and now it's gone.

I have just moved two personal attacks out of this thread to the jail.
If it continues I will close this thread
Edit:that's what happened.

That's good and bad at the same time as the post showcased the blind Linux zealotry in its truth.
A user pointed out new things in Windows7 and the othe responded in totally "LY" way just flaming, bashing and trolling.
I never bashed Windows. I joked like after I got my compiz cube working I would try to make it appear on Windows and when it didn't I would say ha! that's way Linux is so cool!
But you could easily put me in a "self-hating Linux users" group as I'm a member of Linsux forum I do read Linux hater blog and any other website making fun out of Linux, KDE or Gnome. I like humour about stuffs that I really like and use.
It's very "monty-pythonic" in a way that pythons preferred to make jokes about stuff they know and "loved".
And if I participated in discussion about Windows I always said that it was working perfectly for me and I switched to Linux because I was interested in it and heard a lot of good stuff about Ubuntu and it's user-friendliness.
I see no positive in hating a company or even a product. You can always decide to try something else. I knew about Linux since my elementary school (circa 1998-2000) and I opt not to use it as I felt I'm not knowledgeable enough to use it.
And even if someone would ask me if he or she should use Linux I would say only if you're ready to learn a whole OS from scratch. And even then I probably say yes ubuntu is really cool and all, but to really test your determination on switching to a new OS try Arch Linux. If they would succeed they would end up with really nice OS in not they would know that they are not ready for Linux, as even though Ubuntu leads you by hand through installation it's still Linux inside, meaning that on the end you have to know exactly the same things as with Arch just that at Ubuntu you think you don't need to know it, while Arch or Gentoo or anything else gives you an heads-up to what you'll have to know about your new OS (sooner or later).
I believe and hope that sometimes Linux will become a "mainstream" desktop OS as it does have potential, I just fear that in doing that it would loose the best thing:
ability to tailor your OS to your needs and (at least basic) knowledge what's going on with your OS.
(I know tl;dr :D)

Giant Speck
March 17th, 2009, 01:39 AM
(I know tl;dr :D)

It's not really tl;dr. You just need to learn to double space after paragraphs. ;)

Faolan84
March 17th, 2009, 03:19 AM
It's so ridiculous that with all the evils in this world people choose to make personal attacks on people because they like or use a Microsoft OS / product. I mean, there are much more evil corporations out there and much more people doing evil thing.

My solution to Microsoft is that I don't use them because I don't like their products and I don't support the agendas they push. Therefore, Microsoft does not get my money. In fact my next computer is going to be a nice System76 laptop and I'm going to put OpenSuSE on it not because I am Novell / Microsoft fanboy, but because I like the product.

saulgoode
March 17th, 2009, 03:56 AM
Are you saying that you find it appropriate for threads to be opened solely for the purpose of saying "M$ Windoz sucks!!1!" et al?
No, I am not. But neither would I find responses calling the poster childish and ignorant any less inappropriate.


Doesn't that kind of thing cause more problems with the moderation of the site due to them having to close/delete the multitude of such threads, as well as respond to the reported posts in the first place?
The response to the report would be to close/delete the thread. If such a thread were reported on my forum, I would remove the thread and send a PM to the poster requesting that he try again using a more refined approach. Having an army of self-appointed, would-be-moderators taking another member to task tends to escalate the general level of antagonism in the forums.


While I agree with you about the grammatical insistance from some of the members (which I usually just gloss over anyway ;) ), I'm refering to the threads in which the whole purpose is to spread FUD, much like the MS "Get the Facts" ad campaign.
What about a thread such "Microsoft Rips Off Linux" (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1095751)? While personally I am ambivalent to the sentiment of the title, I find it annoying that a potentially worthwhile discussion gets sidetracked and eventually shutdown because a couple of members take it upon themselves to characterize it as nothing but Microsoft bashing.

Even if I were to agree that shutting down that thread was appropriate, it is entirely inappropriate to have the decision be a result of misbehavior by a few of members who weren't even trying to participate in the discussion. Yes, there needs to be some leeway in letting people express themselves, but rudeness by one does not justify rudeness by another.

MikeTheC
March 17th, 2009, 04:00 AM
@ Aodfin:

Yeah, but here on UF, we're not allowed to get into political discussions. ;)

Seriously, I don't see why we are in any way obliged to wear kid-gloves with respect to any OS. That doesn't mean I support personal attacks -- I don't -- but nevertheless we should never be cowed into thinking "oh, I don't have the right to voice my opinion". It's a fine line, I'll grant you, but it's there nonetheless.

Also (and I'm not even referring to being loud-mouthed or rude or profane or anything like that) one person's voicing-of-opinions (or possibly voicing-of-facts) is another person's hate rhetoric. I generally take most complaints in that area with a significant number of grains of salt.

Dekkon
March 17th, 2009, 04:27 AM
They're not a monopoly.

They actually make decent products (although overpriced).

They do innovate.

.

That doesn't justify the horrible business practices. They are stopping competition, thus, further stopping innovation by not allowing this. For Christ sake, even Windows Mobile, Blackberry, let you install any program, any browser, etc., just no excuse for this.


I bash Microsoft because I've been stuck with their rubbishy system for years and have been tricked into thinking it was the only thing there. I'm sick of their bullying tactics and corporate scams.

You weren't tricked into shat, you were simply incompetent, and it's your fault you were smart enough to research other options like any other human being in this world. Even if they do have poor business tactics, it is 100% your fault that you continue to use and go along with there products despite there use of these tactics. Also, Microsoft doesn't scam, just because they offer something for a price isn't a scam, don't buy it then, it it that simple.

**** People **** me off. *Yes, them are astricks by me, I didn't actually type the words, don't report me. =p

abyssius
March 17th, 2009, 06:28 AM
If I was running a company with pretentions of being an evil monopoly that actively represses choice, I'd create an OS that could not be installed on any hardware, but the hardware I manufacture. I'd charge premium prices for my products to propagate an elitist image. I'd pro actively sue any company that tried in any way to circumvent my closed-source hardware/software platform. I'd use aggressive marketing such as competition-bashing television ads to relentlessly diminish my competitors. I'd employ intense propaganda to generate and control a near fanatical user base ready to leap on any and all detractors. I'd portray my company as the holiest of the holy to attract followers to my computing nirvana.

It seems to me that this doesn't quite fit Microsoft, where the vast majority of its customers are completely oblivious to technical nuances and just want to surf the internet, send email and maybe capture some pictures from their digital camera. They are buying a Windows computer as an appliance, not for a brilliant operating System or a status symbol. I suggest that Microsoft's success is not as nefarious as it is sometimes characterized. Their success is based on the fact that they allowed Windows to be installed on ANY x86 computer made by ANY manufacturer during a time when personal computing was a growing industry. People weren't buying Windows - they were buying an affordable computer, which happened to have Windows pre-installed.

MikeTheC
March 17th, 2009, 06:44 AM
Before this thread gets locked down for good...

I fully support the notion that one's actions are one's own responsibility. Ignorance is no excuse, and all that. However, I also firmly believe it takes two to tango, and one cannot overlook the role Microsoft plays in it's own bid for continued domination.

It is short-sighted to suggest that any big player, let alone Microsoft, would not want to press home any advantage they had, particularly when there is competition which might or could erode any portion of their marketshare.

namegame
March 17th, 2009, 06:52 AM
Abyssius, makes a good point. For some reason many Linux users overlook Mac, possibly because it is "Unix based." Mac does seem very monopolistic when you think about it, but I think Windows has become an easy target that everyone likes to gang up on.

Personally, I have no feelings, good or bad, for any of the OSs, I'm actually "forced" to use all three, Linux, Mac, and Windows at work, and they all perform beautifully for what I need them to do.

nelskurian
March 17th, 2009, 06:54 AM
I always tell I dont hate windows as an OS.As a company Microsoft have lot of money making ideas and some hiding scripts.Like simply thy can punish me for publishing their corporate name without a copyright logo.:D

As an OS Windows some wins the market as due to their technical perfection and user friendliness with hidden agendas.But nowadays linux hits the market with the same feature as Microsoft always claims.

Thats why the newcomers hate windows and louds "Go to hell;; :o

kidux
March 17th, 2009, 07:08 AM
No, I am not. But neither would I find responses calling the poster childish and ignorant any less inappropriate.
Fair enough, I can understand that.



The response to the report would be to close/delete the thread. If such a thread were reported on my forum, I would remove the thread and send a PM to the poster requesting that he try again using a more refined approach. Having an army of self-appointed, would-be-moderators taking another member to task tends to escalate the general level of antagonism in the forums.
Again, fair thoughts. Still, a bit of self-moderation is in order, IMO, especially on a forum as large as this one.



What about a thread such "Microsoft Rips Off Linux" (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1095751)? While personally I am ambivalent to the sentiment of the title, I find it annoying that a potentially worthwhile discussion gets sidetracked and eventually shutdown because a couple of members take it upon themselves to characterize it as nothing but Microsoft bashing.
While I can agree with on this, mainly because I'm not 100% on why that particular thread got shut down, I also have to point out that the OP's attitude was one of simple anti-MS sentiment. Or it could've just been a lack of understanding in how technology evolves, but either way it came out sound venomous and hollow.


Even if I were to agree that shutting down that thread was appropriate, it is entirely inappropriate to have the decision be a result of misbehavior by a few of members who weren't even trying to participate in the discussion. Yes, there needs to be some leeway in letting people express themselves, but rudeness by one does not justify rudeness by another.
Again, valid points, and probably one I should think about more next time I post in such a conversation, but the sheer volume of those kinds of threads is somewhat grating, of which I'm sure anyone can agree. It tends to push people to shoot off at the mouth...er....fingers more than normal.

kidux
March 17th, 2009, 07:11 AM
Abyssius, makes a good point. For some reason many Linux users overlook Mac, possibly because it is "Unix based." Mac does seem very monopolistic when you think about it, but I think Windows has become an easy target that everyone likes to gang up on.

Personally, I have no feelings, good or bad, for any of the OSs, I'm actually "forced" to use all three, Linux, Mac, and Windows at work, and they all perform beautifully for what I need them to do.
I think it's because Apple doesn't go about trying to "rule" the rest of the world like MS does, i.e. exclusive mobile device software on devices not made by them, exclusive video game DLC for cross platform games, exclusive vehicle born control software, etc. MS has a higher profile in their monopolistic dealings than Apple does, so more people speak against them.

MikeTheC
March 17th, 2009, 07:17 AM
If I was running a company with pretentions of being an evil monopoly that actively represses choice, I'd create an OS that could not be installed on any hardware, but the hardware I manufacture. I'd charge premium prices for my products to propagate an elitist image. I'd pro actively sue any company that tried in any way to circumvent my closed-source hardware/software platform.
Yes, you'd be running Apple. I think we all see where you're trying to head.

However, you'd also be running a company which was (clearly) not seeking world domination. The very agenda you cite has been argued to death by better people than me to be not appropriate for taking over the world. It's generally characterized as being either too inefficient, or inimical to broad-based adoption by potential customers. Yet given Apple's success, clearly there must be quite a number of people who aren't switching just based on it being a status symbol, as there are other choices.



It seems to me that this doesn't quite fit Microsoft, where the vast majority of its customers are completely oblivious to technical nuances and just want to surf the internet, send email and maybe capture some pictures from their digital camera. They are buying a Windows computer as an appliance, not for a brilliant operating System or a status symbol.
While that's a fair statement, there's more than one way to look at that. One way to look at it is simply there are a great many folk who are not technology enthusiasts. Another way is that a great many people are lazy and prefer other people to do their thinking for them. A third way, though more controversial, is to look at population as an expression of IQ distribution over standard deviation.




I suggest that Microsoft's success is not as nefarious as it is sometimes characterized.
Yes, sometimes it is just dumb luck, like with IBM in 1981.



Their success is based on the fact that they allowed Windows to be installed on ANY x86 computer made by ANY manufacturer during a time when personal computing was a growing industry.
Allowed? ALLOWED?!?!?!? Are you kidding me? Microsoft forced PC vendors to ship their computers with DOS, Win3.x, Win95, Win98, and so on. People want to complain about Apple's vendor lock-in. You need to review your history, sir. With all due respect, Microsoft has engaged in far worse things than anything Apple could ever be found guilty of.



People weren't buying Windows - they were buying an affordable computer, which happened to have Windows pre-installed.
Oh. My. God. How can you actually type that? I mean, it's true that people often will eat whatever is put in front of them, but that's placing the blame a little bit heavy on one side of the equasion, don't 'cha think?

k2t0f12d
March 17th, 2009, 07:27 AM
You weren't tricked into shat, you were simply incompetent, and it's your fault you were smart enough to research other options like any other human being in this world. Even if they do have poor business tactics, it is 100% your fault that you continue to use and go along with there products despite there use of these tactics. Also, Microsoft doesn't scam, just because they offer something for a price isn't a scam, don't buy it then, it it that simple.

Boy-oh-boy..I really feel sorry for any poor BeOS user that ever runs into you. Jeez!


Their [Microsoft's] success is based on the fact that they allowed Windows to be installed on ANY x86 computer made by ANY manufacturer during a time when personal computing was a growing industry. People weren't buying Windows - they were buying an affordable computer, which happened to have Windows pre-installed.

Allowed Windows to be installed? Microsoft has insisted on seeing every possible hardware vendor selling their OS on every possible computer since MS-DOS. Has no one here ever read the history of DR-DOS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DR_DOS)? Do we not remember how DR-DOS, an OS with radically superior capabilities, was copied from and then hedged out of the market entirely by Microsoft with per processor vendor contracts?

Its all well and good to heckle Apple, and their business model certainly isn't any ethically better then Microsoft's, except it didn't and doesn't result in monopoly. So I certainly wouldn't choose Apple's way if I wanted to pursue it.

overdrank
March 17th, 2009, 07:37 AM
Closed for review.

KiwiNZ
March 17th, 2009, 08:16 AM
Closed for review.

I posted a warning earlier in the day. I support your closure.

This thread should remain closed