Is a Mac worth the money?

[Grant A.]

Well, since I am quickly coming down with a hatred for Microsoft, I am looking into investing in a Mac. I have done some research and found that Macs can run iTunes, Pidgin, Camino, GIMP, and Python. But can say, fluxbox, easy be installed over Apple's Aqua interface via X11.app? And is a Mac Mini worth the money? Is it slow, fast, does it have a good graphics card?

And while I'm looking for a non-linux replacement for Windows, are there are good options out there? I have heard that FreeBSD is good, but is it still based on patented/copyrighted code? Is OpenSolaris actually legal? Because I have seen some websites that say otherwise due to SCO's fake ownership of UNIX SVRx.

Mainly the things I look for in an operating system are:

-Good Documentation
-UNIX-like if possible, but I am always willing to experiment. :)
-BASH
-libvorbis/ogg
-SDL
-Creativity
-Uniqueness
-Modular design
-X11
-Firefox, Seamonkey, or Opera
-Python 2.6 & 3
-GIMP/equivalent
-Java Runtime Environment 6+

Any help is greatly appreciated. :)

[MarblePanther]

Why do you not want to use linux?

[Skripka]

Well, since I am quickly coming down with a hatred for Microsoft, I am looking into investing in a Mac. I have done some research and found that Macs can run iTunes, Pidgin, Camino, GIMP, and Python. But can say, fluxbox, easy be installed over Apple's Aqua interface via X11.app? And is a Mac Mini worth the money? Is it slow, fast, does it have a good graphics card?

And while I'm looking for a non-linux replacement for Windows, are there are good options out there? I have heard that FreeBSD is good, but is it still based on patented/copyrighted code? Is OpenSolaris actually legal? Because I have seen some websites that say otherwise due to SCO's fake ownership of UNIX SVRx.

Mainly the things I look for in an operating system are:

-Good Documentation
-UNIX-like if possible, but I am always willing to experiment. :)
-BASH
-libvorbis/ogg
-SDL
-Creativity
-Uniqueness
-Modular design
-X11
-Firefox, Seamonkey, or Opera
-Python 2.6 & 3
-GIMP/equivalent
-Java Runtime Environment 6+

Any help is greatly appreciated. :)

A Mac Mini doesn't even have a graphics card....it is also supremely overpriced for such outdated hardware. Srsly, $600 for a 1.83 Ghz dual core, with no GPU and 1GB of memory??????

OSX is not really modular at all. You CANNOT remove Mac Mail without b0rking the OS...and Mac Mail eats ~300-400MB.

PS-X11 and GIMP on OSX are so painful that the ONLY thing that could possibly hurt more is a very high priced dominatrix.

[Grant A.]

Why do you not want to use linux?

I got tired of going from UNIX-clone to Windows-clone with every distributor's new release.

[zmjjmz]

Get a netbook if you're traveling.

[C!oud]

I got tired of going from UNIX-clone to Windows-clone with every distributor's new release.
I understand the Windows-clone when it comes to programs however there aren't too many that try to be a Unix clone or even full on Linux distrobutions trying to be Windows Clones.

I have heard that FreeBSD is good, but is it still based on patented/copyrighted code?
Most will say the BSD is less restrictive than the GPL
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSD_licenses
and FreeBSD is great but it is a change ;)

Is OpenSolaris actually legal?
I don't see why it isn't. I really don't think you need to worry about this.

Mainly the things I look for in an operating system are:

-Good Documentation
-UNIX-like if possible, but I am always willing to experiment. :)
-BASH
-libvorbis/ogg
-SDL
-Creativity
-Uniqueness
-Modular design
-X11
-Firefox, Seamonkey, or Opera
-Python 2.6 & 3
-GIMP/equivalent
-Java Runtime Environment 6+

Any help is greatly appreciated. :)
Most Windows alternatives should meet these demands, just pick a type of Os that interests you. For example if you're interested in BSD look into the big three FreeBSD, OpenBSD, and NetBSD and some of their derivatives (such as user friendly PC-BSD or DesktopBSD)

[anjilslaire]

Asking for non-linux advice on a linux forum isn't likely to get you the responses you're probably looking for

[Polygon]

if you want to avoid windows clones, why are you thinking about a mac? mac os x treats you more like an idiot then windows does. (as in its meant for people who are not very good with computers)

x11 is pretty hackish on mac os x.

java is apple's own implementation of java which is several versions behind if i'm right

mac os x is as modular as windows (aka, not really)

the only real appeal of a mac is that its UNIX based, its stable (as drivers are written for very specific hardware), but other then that, for me the UI is annoying, and i just prefer windows/linux

[Cybie257]

We have Windows and Macs where I work. I've introduced Linux. OSX is unix based, but if you ever do a search for MAC OSX support, good luck. Some of the questions I have had in the past resulted in matches that were only someone else asking the question. Linux, on other hand, you lose count on the hits through a google (or other) search..

So, with that, if you're thinking about going to a system that you will have lots of support with, go with Linux. It's a LOT cheaper than a MAC, you can use whatever hardware with it, and even some of your windows programs will work if you have some sort of favorite, such as Winamp, though I now use Rhythmbox 90% of the time as there are so many cool plug-ins for it. :)

If you plan to do something like Adobe Illustrator (where InkScape will not work out), then there might be a reason to go MAC, otherwise, not a whole lot of special reason to go MAC. At least no in my opinion.

It all boils down to this: You have to choose an OS that will suit your needs the best as possible. Otherwise, you're going to be searching for something else real soon.

-Cybie

[gletob]

we have windows and macs where i work. I've introduced linux. Osx is unix based, but if you ever do a search for mac osx support, good luck. Some of the questions i have had in the past resulted in matches that were only someone else asking the question. Linux, on other hand, you lose count on the hits through a google (or other) search..

So, with that, if you're thinking about going to a system that you will have lots of support with, go with linux. It's a lot cheaper than a mac, you can use whatever hardware with it, and even some of your windows programs will work if you have some sort of favorite, such as winamp, though i now use rhythmbox 90% of the time as there are so many cool plug-ins for it. :)

if you plan to do something like adobe illustrator (where inkscape will not work out), then there might be a reason to go mac, otherwise, not a whole lot of special reason to go mac. At least no in my opinion.

It all boils down to this: You have to choose an os that will suit your needs the best as possible. Otherwise, you're going to be searching for something else real soon.

-cybie

+1

[HammerOfDoubt]

I got tired of going from UNIX-clone to Windows-clone with every distributor's new release.

If you really hate Linux so much and take every chance you get to insult it, why don't you leave?

I'm sure there are plenty of Mac forums on the tubes.

My friend has a Mac. I used it a few times. It's like a very beautiful friendly unbreakable glass prison.

[mamamia88]

it's not weather or not it's worth the money it's what applications you want to run.

[Guilden_NL]

Depends. Would you be happy buying bling bling studded handcuffs from a dictator that doesn't allow you to go where you want until:

You ask the dictator for permission
Then pay him loads of your money to do what you want to do

[MikeTheC]

OSX is unix based, but if you ever do a search for MAC OSX support, good luck.

Clearly, you've never been to MacRumors.com

[BGFG]

Is mac WORTH the money ? No.

[swoll1980]

I think mac could take the OS market share if they released a version for PC

[dasunst3r]

A Mac is not worth the money if you're going to load Linux on the system, want just a computer that works, and/or would like to customize your components. On the other hand, they look great. The choice is yours.

[booshire]

has this post lost it's way? Mac is expensive but runs a lot of apps, many costing extra money. Plus the overhead of buying and repairing the mac. Lots of people will charge a few beers to fix linux or windows for you, mac store will charge you ~$300 to fix a keyboard being unplugged. Yes linux can be a hassle when it comes to fixes since if you want any good advice you need to create it yourself. The good thing about linux is if you want a unix feel you just need to find the right distro to fit your taste, or flavor ha ha.

If you are needing some network apps running bsd and opensolaris are fine, but if you are just going online, chatting, and doing normal "granda" stuff there is no reason to just find one and be comfortable. The overhead work which comes with bsd and opensolaris can be too much otherwise. Great news is most every linux/bsd/opensolaris you use will come with forums, so if you get too many google hits with your searches just go straight to the forum to narrow it down.

If you are so anal not to want windows, linux, or unix-front, grab a C book and start righting your own, Linus. Yeah there are more, but basically no support (think of Wally from Dilbert as your only source of knowledge).

I am kind of thinking you just put this post here to **** off some die-hards.

[RichardLinx]

Not worth the money. I sure as hell wouldn't shell out $2000 for hardware that I could probably get for less then half the price, excluding a glossy case.

[tubezninja]

I have a few Macs, and they are worth every penny.

- There's plenty of support

- Repair costs have been nil, because, I haven't had to send any in to repair (hint: if you want to avoid a repair charge for an unplugged keyboard, you plug it in)

- I have X11 but don't need it. I don't use a Mac to run linux apps. Don't need to. Why run rythmbox when the app it's supposed to replace is already built in?

That said, I have my doubts Grant A. will be be best suited with a Mac, because it appears his choices are predicated on some personal agenda, and not purely on technical merits.

[MikeTheC]

<RANT>

It never fails to amaze me how intolerant people can be of each other, even those who are part of a community ostensibly brought into existence for the benefit and betterment of others. All of us here, myself included, rail against the onslaught of intolerance and ignorance of others (particularly from the Windows community) against open source and us as users of open source products. However, many of these very same people don't hesitate to be crude, crass, intolerant and ignorant when it comes to someone asking about some other platform, even when (quite ironically) it's helping to "fight the good fight" against Microsoft.

The sheer level of hypocrisy on this board can sometimes be truly astonishing.

</RANT>

@ scaredpoet:

I can't speak to the OP's motivations or mindset, but I agree with the rest of what you said.

[Giant Speck]

Get a Psystar OpenMac while you still can. :p

[Orlsend]

I tried most of their products, they lack alot in features and customization.

So far windows has done a better job. Maybe Ill try Mac in the future (But not the close one at least)

[shadowdude1794]

Ick... I don't think any desktop Mac is worth the money. Their laptops are decent though.

[Giant Speck]

I tried most of their products, they lack alot in features and customization.

So far windows has done a better job. Maybe Ill try Mac in the future (But not the close one at least)

Despite the fact Windows isn't as customizable as Linux, it is far more customizable than OS X. Especially if you have Windows XP, where you can use VS's instead of Windowblinds.

[wolfen69]

A Mac Mini doesn't even have a graphics card....it is also supremely overpriced for such outdated hardware. Srsly, $600 for a 1.83 Ghz dual core, with no GPU and 1GB of memory??????



for $600 i can build a killer computer.

[era86]

for $600 i can build a killer computer.

For $600 I can build a better one.... :guitar:

Newegg wishlist battle! Joking...

As for the original post. No, Macs are not worth the money considering the hardware available in them compared to other laptops. BUT, OS X is sexy. Still, OS X doesn't make up for the highly overpriced hardware you get.

[kidux]

<RANT>

It never fails to amaze me how intolerant people can be of each other, even those who are part of a community ostensibly brought into existence for the benefit and betterment of others. All of us here, myself included, rail against the onslaught of intolerance and ignorance of others (particularly from the Windows community) against open source and us as users of open source products. However, many of these very same people don't hesitate to be crude, crass, intolerant and ignorant when it comes to someone asking about some other platform, even when (quite ironically) it's helping to "fight the good fight" against Microsoft.

The sheer level of hypocrisy on this board can sometimes be truly astonishing.

</RANT>

@ scaredpoet:

I can't speak to the OP's motivations or mindset, but I agree with the rest of what you said.
If you read the OP's other posts as of late, you will see that he is the hypocrite. He was a long time user of Linux, then started bashing it because he felt it was stealing innovations from MS, then is now bashing MS for being greedy monopolistic fat cats while still bashing Linux as being non innovative.

Grant, since you seem to have such a problem with other people's work and contributions to the forwarding of automation in general, might I suggest grabbing LFS or Arch and building your personalized OS from the ground up, designing your own apps, then package it as a full distro and release it?

[hyperyoda]

if you read the op's other posts as of late, you will see that he is the hypocrite. He was a long time user of linux, then started bashing it because he felt it was stealing innovations from ms, then is now bashing ms for being greedy monopolistic fat cats while still bashing linux as being non innovative.

Grant, since you seem to have such a problem with other people's work and contributions to the forwarding of automation in general, might i suggest grabbing lfs or arch and building your personalized os from the ground up, designing your own apps, then package it as a full distro and release it?

+1

[jespdj]

And while I'm looking for a non-linux replacement for Windows, are there are good options out there? I have heard that FreeBSD is good, but is it still based on patented/copyrighted code? Is OpenSolaris actually legal? Because I have seen some websites that say otherwise due to SCO's fake ownership of UNIX SVRx.
I got tired of going from UNIX-clone to Windows-clone with every distributor's new release.
I really don't understand why you're specifically asking about a non-Linux OS and at the same time are thinking about FreeBSD or OpenSolaris. Those last two are certainly less user-friendly than a Linux distro like Ubuntu, and there is less software available for them than for Ubuntu.

Ofcourse OpenSolaris is legal. It's made and distributed by Sun. But even Sun's own employees don't use it on their laptops - I've been to a lot of conferences, and most of them have laptops with Windows XP or a Mac. I've used OpenSolaris in a VirtualBox VM for a while. I couldn't see any benefit of it over Ubuntu or any other Linux distro.

FreeBSD and OpenSolaris are primarily meant as server operating systems. For desktop use, FreeBSD and OpenSolaris are clearly inferior to a user-friendly distro like Ubuntu.

[Sashin]

Mac took multiple desktops from Linux.

I don't think it's possible choose a viable desktop platform that's COMPLETELY original.

Don't forget that Jaunty was supposed to pave the way for a plethora of features that will be introduced in Karmic. There will probably be more innovation on the way.

Otherwise I would still not recommend buying a Mac, the hardware lock in means a big waste of money and they aren't particularly powerful. If I were you I'd get a PC and install reactOS or Windows 7. (Maybe you should dual boot linux, or use it on another computer. Or at least keep up with it. I don't think the lack of innovation is a permanent thing.

[oobuntoo]

Is a Mac worth the money? That depends on what's is important to you. If you like to be controlled, then the answer maybe yes. If you like to be IN control, then no.

Let me clarify a bit. As you may already know, you can only legally use/install OS X on Apple's hardware. Consequently, the only choices you have in hardware are the ones Apple makes available. This allows them to charge more an equivalent hardware found somewhere else.

Apple is always at least a generation behind when it comes to hardware. You will never get the latest and greatest. People who use Windows and Linux can already buy or build systems with Core i7 CPU and high-end graphic cards from Nvidia and ATI-AMD. You will not find similar offering from Apples for maybe another year.

OS X is a capable OS, but there's nothing Linux or Windows can't do that OS X can.

BTW, I just built a Core i7 system that beats the best Apple has to offer for less than half the price.

[zakany]

Is a Mac worth the money?

Yes. It is worth the money to each and every one of their customers.

[Grant A.]

It never fails to amaze me how intolerant people can be of each other, even those who are part of a community ostensibly brought into existence for the benefit and betterment of others. All of us here, myself included, rail against the onslaught of intolerance and ignorance of others (particularly from the Windows community) against open source and us as users of open source products. However, many of these very same people don't hesitate to be crude, crass, intolerant and ignorant when it comes to someone asking about some other platform, even when (quite ironically) it's helping to "fight the good fight" against Microsoft.

The sheer level of hypocrisy on this board can sometimes be truly astonishing.

<snip>

----------------------

Anyways, thank you MikeTheC and the others who actually decided to help me, rather than spam my thread with off topic comments. After Mike's PM and the other replies to this thread I can say that perhaps a Mac is not the best thing for me. Since price really is a factor for me, and perhaps buying hardware that's a generation behind isn't best suited for my needs. I guess I'll stick with the good ol' regular PCs until I find a good replacement for Linux and Windows.

Thank you :)

[Sashin]

ReactOS?

[-grubby]

I find the best way to deal with those kinds of people is to add them to your ignore list.


I now have Grant A. ;).

[Yashiro]

A triple boot Macbook is a very useful tool.

[Rokurosv]

I don't think it's worth the money, I like Leopard but the hardware is so overpriced. I hope that Pystar wins in court and Macs become cheaper.

[dragos240]

One simple answer,
No

[MarblePanther]

I agree. Its overpriced.

Its for trendy people who can spend the green IMHO :mrgreen:

[Grant A.]

I agree. Its overpriced.

Its for trendy people who can spend the green IMHO :mrgreen:

Coming from a guy whose name happens to be an OS X version's codename. ;)

[MarblePanther]

It has nothing to do with Apple.

Changed sig, bc this is getting annoying.

[chronographer]

I think a mac mini is a very good idea. It is expensive but tiny and runs OSX. OSX has very good pros and very few cons. I personally was tossing up between a max mini (which I could sit on my desk like a stack of disks) or a tower (which I would stick under my desk and fill full of HDDs and a chunky graphics card etc.).

In the end I bought a tower which is far more powerful than the mac mini (~2.66ghz x 4 processor) and which I use predominately for email and web surfing! I can though, if I want, use it for games by dual booting XP whic hyou can't do on a mac.

In the whole solaris / BSD / other OS argument... you don't want to go there for your desktop!

Linux is pretty bloody good, so much great free software apt-get easy to install!

OSX is very nice and arguably more stable than Linux, more polished anyway, with cool features such as time machine and nice software such as garage band and iphoto.

Windows is for normal folks who don't know what an OS is or are tied to a particular application. It does the job but should not be used all the time!

In conclusion... Macs are worth the money if you want the convenience, great quality, and shiny OS, but are pretty expensive.

[wolfen69]

OSX is very nice and arguably more stable than Linux

linux, in and of itself, is as stable as any OS. it's what happens when people tweak and add things when it loses that stability.

my current install of 8.10 is the most stable OS i've ever used. period, end. but that's just my experience.

and no, i feel mac is not worth the money. i could build a world class machine for the price of an average mac. or for that matter, i can build a real sweet machine for the price of a mac-mini. no thanks.

the fun i'm having on my ubuntu box could never be replicated with a mac. to me, ubuntu is perfection.

[mamamia88]

i was just listening to engadget podcast where one of the hosts said that it was going to cost him $800 to get his macbook pro's broken hinge fixed. that put me off the idea of ever buying a mac. they want you to pay $2000 for a computer and then $800 for something that is their fault? **** that i think i'll stick with linux

[cprofitt]

Macs are not worth the money.

For example I bought a T500 from Lenovo with:

T9400 - 2.53Ghz processor
320 GB HD
1680x1050 15" display
4 GB ram DDR3
Bluetooth
Intel 5300 wireless
ATI/Intel dual graphics

Price $1347

----
The closest Apple is the 15" Mac Book Pro at $2499 -- There is no way I could justify spending almost double to get a Mac.

[Polygon]

but it looks so shiny and sleek! surely thats worth an extra 1500 dollars.

[Giant Speck]

I'm sure someone who enjoys using a Mac would say yes, and someone who has either never used one or has used one and not liked it would say no.

[bapoumba]

Moved to Recurring.

[Joeb454]

I can though, if I want, use it for games by dual booting XP whic hyou can't do on a mac.

http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/bootcamp.html

You can run Windows on a Mac :)

And for the record, I love my MacBook. It's one of the best things I've bought recently.

That doesn't mean I don't use linux any more. I use it as my primary OS on my desktop :)

[Giant Speck]

http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/bootcamp.html

You can run Windows on a Mac :)

And for the record, I love my MacBook. It's one of the best things I've bought recently.

That doesn't mean I don't use linux any more. I use it as my primary OS on my desktop :)

I still wonder why there is confusion about running Windows on a Mac.

Didn't they advertise on television that Windows could run on Macs now?

[MikeTheC]

I can though, if I want, use it for games by dual booting XP whic hyou can't do on a mac.

How is that so, exactly?

[MikeTheC]

Mac OS X is a commercial OS. Because of Apple's rather lengthy history in the technology world, there are many commercial apps which run -- and have, in most cases, always run -- on Mac OS. While we can sit here and debate the various reasons and causes that, for instance, companies such as Adobe don't port their software to Linux (yes, yes, with the exception of Flash Player and Acrobat Reader, I know, I know...) the fact of the matter is that these are not exactly undesirable apps to have.

Not only do they serve as competition for F/OSS apps, they generally serve as the inspiration for many F/OSS apps. This is not a bad thing, folks. And, as I have always maintained, it's great and wonderful to see so many F/OSS alternatives out there, going strong, etc. I would love to see the day when Gimp or Scribus or Inkscape or Bluefish are the equal of Photoshop, InDesign, Illustrator and Dreamweaver. I would love to see the day when Amarok, Banshee, Rhythmbox, etc. (take your pick) is equal to and better than iTunes. However, that day is not today.

For that matter, show me a suite of Linux apps that is comparable to iLife, let alone better than it. In fact, show me a suite of apps for Windows that is better than iLife.

Windows is an understandable choice for many people who need to run Win32/Win64 apps (but don't you feel the least little bit hypocritical in using the OS you left for Linux?) but the fact of the matter is many folks don't need Windows compatibility, and -- I can only speak for myself, but -- surely it makes sense to use the Mac OS X environment in lieu of Windows, given it's stable, robust, and relatively secure.

Bear in mind that most people out there don't have a need to spend their time über-tweaking their desktop environment. I know that "total customizability" is an argument frequently bandied about, and I'm not against it, but it's flat out false to suggest that Mac OS X is really any worse than Windows in this regard as compared to Linux.

[savantelite]

Macs are really about looks and being in the club or a clique of sorts. I know because I have one too:) It feels like you are driving a Porche. I would walk into the library and set that on the table and feel the eyes of enderment. OooooO what kind of computer is that? O this? This is my Powerbook Titanuim! Its old now, but I think it still applies. Premium product all the way.

But now with netbooks things have changed. I can get a blue asus eee for 400 hundred bucks. Small is sexy:) Its not a Porche, but it turns heads. OoooOoo what do you have there...?

[issih]

They have good, easily accessible hardware support. They are wonderfully easy to live with and rarely go wrong (note rarely != never).

They do not allow you to change the look of your desktop very much, you can have the mac look in colour or black and white, thats about it.

They give you support for a range of paid apps, and most open source stuff, either as a port through darwin ports/X11 or as a direct mac cocoa app. You can get open office, pidgin based IM apps, all sorts, and of course you get a unix terminal with ssh and all those goodies that we all learn to love so much.

Is it as customisable as linux? nope.
Do I miss repositories? yep.
Is it nice? I think so, but it has its limitations and foibles just like everything else.

Most importantly, you will pay through the nose for the hardware, the price differential is not as bad as many claim, not if you compare it to an equivalently top tier manufacturer of windows pc's providing decent warranties, but there is a premium. For that you get a shiny, well made box, but not one that is likely to be bleeding edge (right now the laptops are actually pretty good, but the desktops are really getting rather old). Its entirely up to you if it is worth it.

Generally, I use my macbook running OS-X when I am just footling about interwebbing and for the odd bit of work. It is smooth and easy, and that does it for me when I am in that mood. If I want to play I boot linux and tinker.

Linux can be used quite happily as a main os, and my desktop does do that, but the mac is a nice thing, and I don't regret buying it at all.

They aren't really cool though, in many ways the "image" is a negative to me, as it marks you out as a bit pretentious.

[MikeTheC]

They aren't really cool though, in many ways the "image" is a negative to me, as it marks you out as a bit pretentious.

Do you really believe this? Do you really feel this way? Meaning no offense, but hopefully one day you'll get old enough to realize that, in general, the opinions of others aren't worth the time it take you to hear them.

[issih]

Yup I believe it, sadly image and perception of others matters a great deal, I wish it didn't, and if you are truly content with and of yourself, you can probably live without them as you describe.

In many ways I was close to being like you only a few years ago, but life conspired to break me out of that shell and now I have many issues to work through before reaching such a peaceful place. Oddly, I don't actually know if I would want to go back there either - strange as it sounds.

Anyway, enough personal introspection on a tech forum I think :)