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MasterNetra
February 25th, 2009, 02:00 AM
I've more recently been introduced to Flash at my college (have a couple classes on it and just finishing up the first one) and am loving it. And I want to design and produce websites for a living? What does the future look like for Flash? Is there another (possibly better) way that is Linux, mac & windows friendly to create Flash/Flash-like websites? And aside from HTML & CSS what should be trying to study and in what order?

danboy
February 25th, 2009, 04:49 AM
JavaScript is a great place to start, check out libraries like jquery, prototype/scriptaculous, mootools etc.

Then look into processing.js it uses the canvas element to do pretty sweet stuff.

Plus, most browsers are gaining native svg support and it's on the roadmap for inkscape (inkscape.org) to support svg animation.

In (web designer with 13+ years exp) my opinion it's going to boil down to canvas or svg in the long run...

Just try to keep the "semantic web" in mind no matter what tool you choose.

MasterNetra
February 25th, 2009, 05:11 AM
I've been hearing things regarding Ruby on Rails or something another over Javascript...

Orlsend
February 25th, 2009, 07:44 AM
like Danboy says I would recomend Javascript.

Less of a Hassle.

MasterNetra
February 25th, 2009, 08:04 AM
mkay lets see... html > CSS > Javascript..yes? no? maybe?

Peter76
February 25th, 2009, 08:36 AM
Yes, if you know your XHTML/CSS/Javascript and learn how to write standards based pages with these tools, you have your basics very right. If you manage these, you can start to delve into some other technologies which speed things up a bit or add animation ( like flash ).

MarkBremmer
February 25th, 2009, 07:03 PM
Javascript is still pretty safe. Adobe's newer Flex and Air format provides a Flash delivery and API but let's authors link in .Net, Java and standard Flash work seamlessly. Flash is here to stay.

For pure SEO considerations, there are still liabilities with creating all Flash sites. While Google just recently enabled the ability to "look into" flash files, SEO is really driven around HTML/CSS conventions.

Intelligently designed sites that are hybrid between HTML/CSS and Flash/Flex are the strongest suite.

alex.rayu
February 25th, 2009, 09:57 PM
If you want to become a serious designer for Web, you need to use Photoshop and Flash (at least Flash 8 will run well under wine). For vector, Inkscape is fine. Then, you need to master a CMS. At least WordPress. A more serious CMS, like Joomla or Drupal is better, but can wait till after you master Wordpress. Javascript is a must, but don't concentrate on it over the more basic things - such as mentioned above. The truth is, to do the small-business web sites, you don't need Javascript. Design in Photoshop, then code a theme for a CMS, and here's your happy client. Help fill pages if needed. I do Drupal. My web site is www.strider.org.ua.

I strongly disagree with people who say that you should try to use Gimp instead of Photoshop. Having been in this business for a significant amount of time now, I believe this is incompetent. But if you like "No to paid apps" approach, you should check out a thread here - Web design with GIMP, INKSCAPE, WordPress, and Bluefish. IMHO, I don't like any of these. I vote for Photoshop, Drupal, and Geany or Aptana Studio.

era86
February 26th, 2009, 04:33 AM
I'm sure Gimp could be used to design layouts, but why give up the ease and elegance of using Photoshop! :):):) Completely opinion...

I use Photoshop to design layouts, buttons, banners, etc. and code using either ASP.NET in Windows or the Django framework in Linux. In my opinion, web "design" seems to be the money maker and web "development" is more of the background job when it comes to business seeking people to do websites. Truth is, plenty of tools have made web dev much easier these days, so design is much more important.

Find the tools that are right for you. Goodluck

lyceum
February 26th, 2009, 11:57 PM
I've been hearing things regarding Ruby on Rails or something another over Javascript...

I am a Ruby on Rails web designer and I use both JavaScript and Flash. People can debate oer JavaScript vs Flash forever, both have pros and cons. Learn both, use the one you like. JavaScript is free though.

AJB2K3
February 27th, 2009, 07:29 AM
Using SWFC (in the repos) I created a flash file using the hand coding method (how I prefer things) I'm not going to upload it because its so simple but I'm just happy I was able to create a flash file.

mdgrech
February 28th, 2009, 07:59 AM
Flash!? Are you kidding me, first off its not open-source, and you create a web site entirely based off of flash users who don't have a flash player installed won't even be able to access it. Not to mention Flash and SEO? Forget about it. Honestly flash pages are just annoying, no one uses splash screens with lame graphics anymore, not to mention flash wrecks havoc for accesiblity software.

My advice is learn javascript, then move onto a javascript library such jquery. Also don't confuse web design with web development they are separate beasts. Do you want to design web sites, or develop web applications?

alex.rayu
February 28th, 2009, 10:20 AM
That is true. You don't need much of Adobe for the latter.

cb951303
February 28th, 2009, 11:18 AM
Check out AJAX. JQuery is a good framework for it. You can do decent animations with it and for now AJAX -looks like- is the future of web development. It's of course not a replacement for Flash but if you don't intend to make fully animated flash sites AJAX pretty much covers other parts. You can even do a video streamer with it if you bother :popcorn:

andrew.46
February 28th, 2009, 11:34 PM
Hi,

Can I be a dissenting voice here? Forget flash/cms/adobe/dreamweaver/xhtml/ajax and brethren. Learn some solid html, forget xhtml and focus on 4.01 strict and learn the basics of css. If you want all the empty flashy stuff pick it up later.

Andrew

lyceum
March 1st, 2009, 12:18 AM
This being a forum full of FOSS users (myself included), using flash is naturally going to be looked down on. That said, computers are about choice. You should make up your own mind.

I really wish that someone would make an open source alternative to Flash, but JavaScript and AJAX are not it. They are 2 different things that can do very similar things. Both have their strengths and their weaknesses.

I do not know what you are doing and anyone that says that something is not done anymore in web design is wrong to some degree. I tried forever to fight using flash, but there is really nothing like it in the FOSS world. I dream of someday learning to program and making something that works like flash, but uses JavaScript rather than ActionScript. I know nothing beyond web programing basics, I do not know if my dream could be real. But I do know that Flash will not go away until there is something better. AJAX is not better or worse, it is just something else.

Do not listen to anyone, just check them both out and do what you think is best.

AJB2K3
March 1st, 2009, 04:54 PM
I know flash is looked down apon but I did something I thought I could never do. Now I've don it time to carry on with proper stuff like XHTML and CSS.

html is for those who have problems with grammer.

Now if only I could get this stupid jquery gallery to work.:(:(:(

Samhain13
March 2nd, 2009, 03:16 PM
Using Flash for rich media content (like audio and video) delivery is great.

Using Flash to build whole websites is not a good idea.

From a visitor/user's standpoint: say that you (referring to OP) made site that acts as an electronics store catalogue, which is divided in to sections: radio, tv, game consoles, calculators, etc. Now, I'm interested in game consoles so I'd want to bookmark that specific section so that I can quickly go there in the future to check out what's new. How do I bookmark "pages" contained in a purely Flash website?

From a developer/maintainer's standpoint: say after building and maintaining a Flash site for some time, your client (or boss) tells you to make adjustments on text sizes because customers have been complaining that they can't read parts of the website due to the text being too small. Unless you were smart enough to use dynamic text boxes and CSS for your interfaces at the onset, then you can expect a lot of extra work coming your way.

But even if you did use dynamic text and CSS, you're still probably going to need to dig into your apps to manually adjust the dimensions of your text boxes; because, as one would expect, they were designed to display a certain number of lines of text of a certain size (before showing the user a scrollbar); and changing the text size may mean that the bottom line will only be displayed partially, which isn't a good thing, especially for a Flash-based site.

And then, there's a matter about accessibility. But that only makes things needlessly complicated.


OP says: And aside from HTML & CSS what should be trying to study and in what order?

A server-side scripting language like PHP.


lyceum says: I tried forever to fight using flash, but there is really nothing like it in the FOSS world. I dream of someday learning to program and making something that works like flash, but uses JavaScript rather than ActionScript.

I think everything depends on what you intend to use Flash for; it's really a case-to-case basis.

Is it for embedding audio and or video on a page? Try iTheora (http://menguy.aymeric.free.fr/theora/), it uses a Java applet to play A/V files or you can download the applet (http://www.flumotion.net/cortado/) itself and build an interface for it using HTML, CSS and JavaScript.

Is it for making a chat box? Well, there are of course, Java applets for that. Or you can use AJAX to build one.

Case-to-case.

svr2009wwe
March 2nd, 2009, 11:37 PM
Java is best to start.if you want dome more security on flash than u also need PHP

AJB2K3
March 3rd, 2009, 08:17 AM
The jquery system makes web design easer.

konqueror7
March 3rd, 2009, 08:26 AM
The jquery system makes web design easer.
+1...jquery is literally easy to use, especially the way it chains commands to produce what you want, it also has many plugins/addons/controls that can be used aside from the defaults...

MasterNetra
March 3rd, 2009, 10:46 PM
Would it be possible to create a forum using flash (nevermind the diffculty) ?

lyceum
March 4th, 2009, 12:47 PM
Would it be possible to create a forum using flash (nevermind the diffculty) ?

you would have to use Flash and PHP (you need PHP for the data base)

lyceum
March 4th, 2009, 12:55 PM
Using Flash for rich media content (like audio and video) delivery is great.

Using Flash to build whole websites is not a good idea.


I would agree, depending on what you are doing. Tazo (the tea maker) has an awesome website, all flash. But if you have no flash player you can't see it at all. Their market is to coffee shop people, and when you walk into a coffee shop you see lots of Macs. Does Flash limit them? Yes, but you cannot market to everyone. They are hitting their core market.

If you are making a site about open source you would NEVER make it all Flash, as your market will likely use open source and most GNU members will not be fans of Flash. Pizza Hut's site is a Flash site and it is so slow, even on fast internet, that I stopped ordering their pizza. Bad marketing.

If you want to make a fun cool site in all Flash, go for it. Just realize your limitations and if need be make a second Flash-free site for non-Flash lovers.

MasterNetra
March 4th, 2009, 06:24 PM
I would agree, depending on what you are doing. Tazo (the tea maker) has an awesome website, all flash. But if you have no flash player you can't see it at all. Their market is to coffee shop people, and when you walk into a coffee shop you see lots of Macs. Does Flash limit them? Yes, but you cannot market to everyone. They are hitting their core market.

If you are making a site about open source you would NEVER make it all Flash, as your market will likely use open source and most GNU members will not be fans of Flash. Pizza Hut's site is a Flash site and it is so slow, even on fast internet, that I stopped ordering their pizza. Bad marketing.

If you want to make a fun cool site in all Flash, go for it. Just realize your limitations and if need be make a second Flash-free site for non-Flash lovers.


Well I would do a non-flash version anyway :)

alex.rayu
March 4th, 2009, 08:49 PM
It is not wise to build your own forum scripts, when there are ready free products around.

MasterNetra
March 4th, 2009, 08:55 PM
It is not wise to build your own forum scripts, when there are ready free products around.

Prehaps but what if i wish to learn to do it as part of my education? O.o

lyceum
March 5th, 2009, 01:38 AM
It is not wise to build your own forum scripts, when there are ready free products around.


Prehaps but what if i wish to learn to do it as part of my education? O.o

alex.rayu is right. If you want to learn join one of the projects that makes pre-made forums. If you still want to do it from scratch, I would look at the code of several different ones (open ones, of course) to get an idea of what you are getting into. If all you want is boxes for people to talk, that is not too hard, but if you want something as complex as this forum, it will take some time to build. By some time I do not mean a few days. ;)

lyceum
March 5th, 2009, 01:41 AM
Well I would do a non-flash version anyway :)

That is fine, my advice was for general programing, not for one site you are planing now.

barraclou
March 5th, 2009, 04:20 AM
Why using Flash to develop a forum? Lots of PHP and mySQL would pretty much be enough. Also, you need to know what to do to fully protect your app (ie block any SQL injection) from the hackers...

Samhain13
March 5th, 2009, 09:39 AM
Prehaps but what if i wish to learn to do it as part of my education? O.o

Why not? It's always better to know the fundamentals before joining a community of developers, who might not have the time to "hand-hold" you through their scripts.


lyceum says: If you want to make a fun cool site in all Flash, go for it. Just realize your limitations and if need be make a second Flash-free site for non-Flash lovers.

I definitely agree about making a non-Flash version for accessibility purposes, not to mention giving the search engines something to index.