Challenge for all you Microsoft haters!

[Dragonbite]

Having an opinion for something, like Linux, is not difficult and it is easy to then demonize and put down the "competition", like Microsoft, at every turn.

Unfortunately this is also part of the criteria of a fanboy, or fanatic.

The question is, can you say something positive aboue Microsoft? Can you actually "see" from the other person's point of view?

Since there are so many arguments both for- and against-Microsoft there has to be some merit to both sides of the coin, but can you find it?

I've noticed a growing anti-Microsoft feeling but I wonder if it is blind following the herd like sheep or are you actually making a choice?

[ambidextrousone]

Microsoft needs to be applauded for its ability to buy its way to being the primary gaming OS.

im running out, lol. Microsoft office is easy to run in wine, so that never felt like a true reason either.

I guess it also needs to be said that overall, windows probably supports more hardware out the box than any linux distro - but its still a toss of the coin if it all works.
Bare in mind that most people had windows pre-installed for them when they picked up their 'puter from the store.
Said it before and ill say it again, gaming is where windows has people cornered, otherwise, i see absolutely no reason to use windows, unless their hardware really isnt compatible for linux, which is rare in my opinion.

Need to quickly add : used to LOVE encarta :P

[gn2]

I used to enjoy playing Microsoft Combat Flight Simulator and Motocross Madness 2.

I'm impressed with Bill Gates' commitment to spend his personal wealth on good causes.

That's all I can think of to say about Microsoft that's positive.

[forrestcupp]

Windows doesn't have as many graphical glitches. MS did a darn good job on MS Office 2007. Windows Mobile is pretty good, much better than PalmOS and Blackberry OS. Halo. They make good mice.

Other than that, the only other thing that makes Windows better is hardware and software support. But that's not really to MS's credit, other than that they were shrewd enough in the business world to push their OS to the top.

[S0m3th1ngw13rd]

A few of my favorite games run better on XP Battlefield 2, Battlefield 2142. Actually I dont think they run in Ubuntu even in wine.

Thats my positive

[Dixon Bainbridge]

Ive switched back to XP from ubuntu on my home machine as linux doesnt cut it for the apps I need.

XP is a decent, stable, quick OS when you strip it all down. I uninstall every MS app and component I can and replace them with 3rd party alternatives. XP runs great then.

XP is faster than OSX.

I like the fact that every app I need has an XP client which works great.

I have no problems with MS behaving like a business. Businesses look to screw everyone, thats how they make money. If it wasnt MS at no1 then it'd be someone else.

I think Steve Ballmer is funny.

I think Bill Gates is a top man for his foundation and charity work.

The more I use linux on the desktop, the more I see its limitations. It desperately needs 3rd party commercial apps.

[Nevon]

Office 2007 is by far the best word processor I have ever used. Microsoft has also done a great job with the visual effects when logging in to Vista or Windows 7 - it looks so seamless.

[Regnulify]

Visual Studio is the best IDE ever written. People will argue that you can only write .Net langauges on it. But that is not the point. If you could program other languages in Visual Studio you would. It's just that great (And the complete reason I keep an XP VM around).

[smartboyathome]

Without Microsoft, we wouldn't be where we are today, and the GUI would probably be very different. Our GUI was influenced a lot by both Microsoft and Apple.

Not a Microsoft hater, just felt like posting that. ;)

[Joeb454]

They've done a lot for computing in general. Nobody can deny that.

Also +1 to Office 2007, I do like it (though it seems to do nothing but crash on my systems for some reason, so I only use it at Uni for now).

Also their hardware is actually pretty decent. My mouse is an MS mouse, I've had it for years (at least 3). And yes, that last comment did also include the Xbox 360. I know the RROD was a pain, but I think they've sorted it now, and either way, the replacement program they have is brilliant (yes I've used it)

[Simian Man]

Flight Simulator is an amazing piece of software.

[RiceMonster]

Visual Studio is the best IDE ever written. People will argue that you can only write .Net langauges on it. But that is not the point. If you could program other languages in Visual Studio you would. It's just that great (And the complete reason I keep an XP VM around).

You can write regular native C/C++ in Visual Studio. You can also write assembly in it. I've used it for both of those very recently. It doesn't have to be .NET

while I prefer to use an editor like vim, I'll admit Visual Studio is a very good IDE. It's got really good debugging tools. I think NetBeans is a pretty close competitor to it, even though it's slow as hell.

[Skripka]

All professional softwares run on Microsoft. None really do to a professional standard on Linux.

[gn2]

All professional softwares run on Microsoft. None really do to a professional standard on Linux.

Tell that to Pixar and the Pentagon.

[Skripka]

Tell that to Pixar and the Pentagon.

Adobe CS3 and CS4 softwares, Finale, Sibelius.....All tax softwares (love this time of the year)....


I don't think there are many UF users from Pixar or the Pentagon here. The lack of professional quality softwares is what prevents business desktop adoption.

[forrestcupp]

I think Steve Ballmer is funny.

True! I guess they do have good entertainment value. I'll bet Ballmer's not so funny if you're working under him, though.

Visual Studio is the best IDE ever written. People will argue that you can only write .Net langauges on it. But that is not the point. If you could program other languages in Visual Studio you would.
+1
Visual Studio is the best IDE I've seen, and I've tried a lot. And like RiceMonster said, it's not limited to .Net at all. I use Visual C++ to program Win32 and wxWidgets binary programs, along with many other cross-platform frameworks and engines like SDL, Irrlicht, Ogre3D, GTK+, etc. I never program in .Net anymore, and the free VC++ Express is about all I use. Of course it is good for .Net, too.

[Dragonbite]

You can write regular native C/C++ in Visual Studio. You can also write assembly in it. I've used it for both of those very recently. It doesn't have to be .NET

while I prefer to use an editor like vim, I'll admit Visual Studio is a very good IDE. It's got really good debugging tools. I think NetBeans is a pretty close competitor to it, even though it's slow as hell.

I agree with Visual Studio being very good and NetBeans being the closer equivalent. Some of that is the ease of building the GUI and then associating what runs during an Event.

I've tried Monodevelop and it just doesn't cut it (for me). If Monodevelop or and Eclipse plug-in could reach the ease of VS I could see Mono applications and adoption increase significantly. I suspect that there would be a number of Windows developers willing to fool around in Mono if the tools were similar.

Office is definitely one of their strongest products and Office 2007, once you get past the learning curve, is pretty good.

I haven't fooled around with it too much lately but their Live applications (chat, (blog)Writer, Gallery, etc.) are surprisingly pretty good. I would love to find a Linux app with the formatting, ease and multiple-blogging upload capabilities.

And last, for me, is that things generally "just work"; printer, scanner, webcam (assumption), tablet, etc.

I just prefer knowing more of what is going on my system, though, which leads me to Linux.

[DarkOx]

Upgrading applications is far easier on Windows.

For example, to upgrade to the latest version of Open Office on Windows, I go download the .exe and double-click it. To do the same on Ubuntu, I have to either:
a) Hope that it's backported
b) Hope that there's a .deb that works with hardy or
c) Upgrade my entire OS to the latest version

In the case of Open Office, I ended up downloading and installing about a billion separate .debs. Each individual .deb was as easy to install as the .exe on Windows, but overall installing was a pain. (Yes, I know you can do it quicker through the command-line, but if you don't know about dpkg, how are you supposed to discover that?)

Another example is Gnome-Do, where to install version 0.8, you need to be running Intrepid. On Windows, I don't have to upgrade my OS to run the latest applications (baring anything truly archaic, like Windows 98 ). Pretty much everything is still compatible with XP. Whereas on Ubuntu, Hardy is only a year out and already there's software I can't run on it.

I realize that most of this problem is outside of the Ubuntu project's control (it's up to the Open Office guys to package things, etc.), but that's not the point: bottom line is that it's easier to upgrade your applications on Windows.

[Dixon Bainbridge]

Adobe CS3 and CS4 softwares, Finale, Sibelius.....All tax softwares (love this time of the year)....


I don't think there are many UF users from Pixar or the Pentagon here. The lack of professional quality softwares is what prevents business desktop adoption.

Yep. Native linux versions of Adobe software is needed, as well as apps like Filemaker, Dreamweaver etc. Like it or not, people like using them and until Linux gets native versions, businesses and home users wont adopt linux as their OS of choice. The average home user cant be bothered with messing about with Wine and VM. Tbh, neither can I.

[Sorivenul]

I guess it also needs to be said that overall, windows probably supports more hardware out the box than any linux distro - but its still a toss of the coin if it all works.

I would disagree with this. If you are talking about OEM disks from you computer manufacturer, sure the hardware will be supported. But a fresh copy of XP or even Vista from the store has relatively little hardware support outside of generic devices. I've had to do a few XP installs recently for friends wishing to upgrade/downgrade from Vista, and getting some of their hardware to work was a major pain.

I personally don't have many qualms with Microsoft, I just don't prefer their software (even Office 2007). I'll add my support to the general quality of their hardware, though.

[Vince4Amy]

For example, to upgrade to the latest version of Open Office on Windows, I go download the .exe and double-click it. To do the same on Ubuntu, I have to either:...

Don't depend on the Software repos for everything, I sure don't. Just go to the ooo.o website and download the deb version like you would the .exe.

I'm not a Microsoft Hater but I think they do a damn good job on not changing major parts of the OS which sometimes damn well don't need changing. Pulseaudio anyone? Also For example X releases are getting more frequent now, so does this mean every time we go to a new version of "distro name" we'll have to wait for the Proprietary drivers to be created. And it's not their fault, it is completely unreasonable for us to just expect them to drop everything and develop for a new system.

[MikeTheC]

Having an opinion for something, like Linux, is not difficult and it is easy to then demonize and put down the "competition", like Microsoft, at every turn.

Unfortunately this is also part of the criteria of a fanboy, or fanatic.

The question is, can you say something positive aboue Microsoft? Can you actually "see" from the other person's point of view?

Since there are so many arguments both for- and against-Microsoft there has to be some merit to both sides of the coin, but can you find it?

I've noticed a growing anti-Microsoft feeling but I wonder if it is blind following the herd like sheep or are you actually making a choice?

Um... No, no and yes, respectively.

[fatality_uk]

Why? Microsoft spend MILLIONS of dollars every year on marketing. I know Microsoft's strengths and weaknesses. They are very good at buying advanced technology and incorporating it into their business and product range.

I could be here all day for weaknesses...

[Kopachris]

Microsoft helped bring computers to general users. That's about all I can think of.

[wolfen69]

here's a positive: if it were not for windows sucking so bad, i would not be using linux.

[mangar]

The following Microsoft technologies / software are, IMHO the best of breed:

1. Visual Studio.
2. DirectX
3. Microsoft Ergonomic keyboard 4000 (I also got ms laser mouse 7000, which sucks (ForMe(tm) ) ).
4. Office 2007
5. Visio
6. MSDN
7. Binary backward compatibility (Applications, not drivers).
(and the side effect of acting as a platfrom, rather than embedded / closed platfrom).
8. Exchange / Outlook (from users's POV).
9. The behaviour of the search-bar in File Explorer.

[Incense]

Windows Live Writer. This is simply the best blogging software. It's free, easy to use, and only works on windows. There is nothing I have found on Linux that even holds a candle to WLW.

[argie]

Me, personally, I actually like Windows' font rendering much better. Plus I think the stuff that comes out of Microsoft Research can be real cool. Photosynth, Surface,... anyone?

Still, I dislike the way they pushed through OOXML and the way they abuse their monopoly position.

[BigSilly]

I don't especially hate Windows to be honest. It's a nice OS that sadly I had no small amount of bother with. It wouldn't put me off trying it again, but overall I just prefer to use Linux. Just a personal preference thing really, when it boils down to it. It's very easy to install and use.

I mean, I hate rabid Linux fanboyism with a passion. I don't like how some people on Gnome-Look will post up a comment on a theme bad mouthing the creator just because it resembles Vista or XP. It's just a look ffs. Are our egos really so easily bruised? Are we really so sensitive?

As for Windows - it's fine. That's about the nicest thing I can think of to say about it! No more, no less. Oh, and I like the blue. Blue tends to look nicer on Windows than it does on most Linux's.

[Delvien]

A few of my favorite games run better on XP Battlefield 2, Battlefield 2142. Actually I dont think they run in Ubuntu even in wine.

Thats my positive

That point is invalid though, the games were designed to run on Windows. If they were designed to run in Linux you wouldn't have a problem.

It would be the same as saying: This cube doesn't fit into this round hole. The round hole is defective, and doesn't work as good as the Cube.

[tuxsheadache]

I like windows, it's cute in it's glitches, it adds personality to it! A perfect computer has no personality and is too robotic.

[mamamia88]

it's solitaire game looks better than aisle rot

[karellen]

beginning by saying I'm not a MS hater, my list could be something like this:

1. MS Office 2007
2. font rendering
3. Visual Studio
4. Games

[|{urse]

+1 to visual studio, monodevelop just doesnt come close.

[FuturePilot]

Without Microsoft, we wouldn't be where we are today, and the GUI would probably be very different. Our GUI was influenced a lot by both Microsoft and Apple.


I agree. Microsoft did a lot to make computers available to the average person.

[Therion]

MS Office (Publisher in particular, Excel to a lesser degree) still mops up the floor with the FOSS alternatives for real "power-usage".

If you need Calc to create Q&D tables in your Scribus document that's one thing; but if you need complex Pivot Tables, Charts and/or more complex calculations across worksheets, Excel still rules the roost.

[mohitchawla]

Like other things in life, you do something or use something (in our case, software) based on its philosophical/moral foundation apart from its practical implications and actual nature...so, knowing what ideals Microsoft is based on, I do not think it is necessary to even _think_ about its positives or make such threads. Now, counter-arguing what has been listed so far as positive things about Microsoft's products...well, necessity is the mother of invention, so I guess people from the free/open source community could have done all that (rather, would have done that), its just that the motivations of the two opposing communities were not the same and one came out with applications and software before the other and started selling it. And then the whole "they have this, while you don't have this" business started and basically it all came down to being Windows-like or Microsoft-like which pisses off a lot of people. So if you are saying they brought the good from us, well I think the good was always there, they just made it come out faster and dirtier.

[Dragonbite]

MS Office (Publisher in particular, Excel to a lesser degree) still mops up the floor with the FOSS alternatives for real "power-usage".

Yeah, Publisher is one of those apps that keeps Windows needed at home (until I can try it out in Wine, but that's another story).

[Therion]

Yeah, Publisher is one of those apps that keeps Windows needed at home...
I hear ya. I'm tethered to Pub via my WinXP virtual machine.



/Sucks.

[karellen]

Like other things in life, you do something or use something (in our case, software) based on its philosophical/moral foundation apart from its practical implications and actual nature...so, knowing what ideals Microsoft is based on, I do not think it is necessary to even _think_ about its positives or make such threads

everybody is entitled to an opinion; some may value software from the functional/pragmatic point of view, some may want to add more ethic in the equation. different people, different values. to each his own

[Dragonbite]

Like other things in life, you do something or use something (in our case, software) based on its philosophical/moral foundation apart from its practical implications and actual nature...so, knowing what ideals Microsoft is based on, I do not think it is necessary to even _think_ about its positives or make such threads. Now, counter-arguing what has been listed so far as positive things about Microsoft's products...well, necessity is the mother of invention, so I guess people from the free/open source community could have done all that (rather, would have done that), its just that the motivations of the two opposing communities were not the same and one came out with applications and software before the other and started selling it. And then the whole "they have this, while you don't have this" business started and basically it all came down to being Windows-like or Microsoft-like which pisses off a lot of people. So if you are saying they brought the good from us, well I think the good was always there, they just made it come out faster and dirtier.

So in other words, you can't (say anything positive). :lolflag:

[cmay]

i really do not hate microsoft anymore. i made a choice at a time to do since i am a bit more political minded linux user than a experienced linux user in terms of editing xorg.coonf files and so on.

i just moved on and forgot that i did pay for something i deeply thnk is wrong. i want software to be free and if anything software should be preintalled on the hardware i buy and accept has a price it should be free and not cost me anything.
i want only to buy a computer not a piece of preinstalled software that has restrictions and licenses. and i should be allowed to see what it is and have the right to fix and customize it anyway i see fit.

its my computer and linux makes it to be like this.

one thing i can say good about a microsoft product is dos. i like dos since it runs turbo pascal 7.0 and is a bit funny to play around with. but since i found Freedos i do not need it to be a microsoft dos version .

i am not a sheep and i really do not like when others give their own free will to act and think away to others blindly. i do not like when others force their own opinons upon ohters and try to make them be sheeps. i always had a choice to start hating microsoft and i also made a choice to let it go and use the energy to love using linux instead. which makes me more happy in the end. :)

[mohitchawla]

everybody is entitled to an opinion; some may value software from the functional/pragmatic point of view, some may want to add more ethic in the equation. different people, different values. to each his own

Definitely. I am sorry that post of mine came up as being rather irrational. :redface:

[bon3fire]

I hope someone mentioned Active Directory before me :D.

[Cope57]

http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/9378/msvslinuxsig5fh.png

[|{urse]

omg im so using that for my sig! Yoink!

[marcgh]

YES!
definetivly I have a positive point for Microsoft.

For the past +72 hours the only way for me to read or write from my DVD-RW drive is to fire up Windows XP.
Thanks to you, guy's of Microsoft Corp., I could still do my work there where Ubuntu let me down.

I can't hate or love software.
I'm just using it!

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1065106

[Closed_Port]

They've done a lot for computing in general. Nobody can deny that.
Oh, I can. :P
But seriously, can you name some examples of what MS has done for computing?


Also their hardware is actually pretty decent.
Agreed.

[Closed_Port]

demonize ... put down the "competition" ... fanboy ... fanatic ... blind following the herd like sheep

Seriously, could you turn down that rhetoric a bit? You may not agree with people not liking Microsoft but that doesn't mean that you should insinuate that people you disagree with are fanboys of fanatics, does it?

[swoll1980]

I didn't even know about the herd when I started using Linux. As a corporation I can can honestly say I hate Microsoft. Their software is great though, XP is anyways. It's fast, stable, and well supported by hardware, and software companies. The XBOX 360 is the single greatest piece of electronics that ever existed, and I would most likely die w/o it. I Use what works, and for me it's Linux, and Windows. I use windows for gaming, and certain apps I use sometimes like tvants, or the Magic Jack sometimes (to make long distance calls) I use Ubuntu for everything else because of it's viral free environment.

[shadylookin]

They brought computing to the masses which is something apple and various *nixes were unable to deliver. My first machine ran windows 95.

[yse]

I don't hate MS, here are my preferences:


1. Vista/W7 overall ergonomy, runing on good PC, nothing compare with that. Aero/font rendering/general UI features are way to nice. Rock solid. Yep, if you have a crap computer, you can skip that part. I prefer to have a top PC and enjoy all the new technologies features, instead trying to tweak an OS to run on a old hardware, what is just a waist of time.

2. Visual Studio. Yep, there is nothing to compare with that one. I use Eclipse/Kdevelop/Monodevelop on linux, they don't compare with VS. Even VS Express (free version) is better that Eclipse/Kdevelop.

3. DirectX. What else can i say.. Best games runs on it for a reason.

4. Office. No more comments. Who hate ribbon, i am sorry for you guys, you just hate MS and don't love new stuff.


And some words.. I've seen some peoples arguing about MS asking money for OS. Well, give me a Linux distro who bring those new technologies on table AND I PAY FOR IT. Seriously. Give something comparable for real and I PAY. And i am not the only one who will maybe. Until then, "fanbois" stop for a minute.

And don't forget, MS is pushing forward almost all hardware vendors with their technologies, not linux.

And yea, for all linux "fanbois" who will reply: Keeping the bad parts about linux hidden dont make next distro better. Better we show what we like, maybe next distro will be better.

[Closed_Port]

4. Office. No more comments. Who hate ribbon, i am sorry for you guys, you just hate MS and don't love new stuff.


Talk about being a fanboy, he?:lolflag:

[Ozor Mox]

Good things about Microsoft...

...

...erm!..

I kid, I kid! In seriousness:

1. Although I don't really like ASP.NET and would rather use PHP, I think the Visual Studio IDE is actually really quite slick and easy to write software with, and their C# language is good. Also the MSDN documentation is incredibly thorough.

2. Windows 2000 is their best operating system I think. I never had a problem with it, it was stable and light.

3. As mentioned in a couple of threads recently, they are going to make Microsoft Office compatible with ODF.

[marduk667]

Windows Server 2003 R2 64-bit

I really like to work with that OS, especially in combination with Oracle

[abyssius]

They brought computing to the masses which is something apple and various *nixes were unable to deliver. My first machine ran windows 95.

Best point in the entire thread. I wonder how many MS critics in this thread built up their computer chops on a Windows machine? Maybe, 99%?

[Closed_Port]

Best point in the entire thread.
Actually, it's the most unconvincing point in this thread. MS got important because IBM licensed the quick and dirty operating system MS had bought (which was basicly a clone of CP/M) for their PCs.

Then, largely as others started making clones of the IBM-PC, the PC became a defacto standard.

How this translates to MS bringing computing to the masses is beyond me.

[yse]

Talk about being a fanboy, he?:lolflag:

No, Open Office 3 dont have ribbon implemented because of some stupid linux "fanbois" who hate ribbon just because is made from MS and refuse to ignore all his functionality/ergonomy.

IMHO, Open Office 3 just lost a nice feature because of a group of small retards.

[BigSilly]

I don't hate MS, here are my preferences:


1. Vista/W7 overall ergonomy, runing on good PC, nothing compare with that. Aero/font rendering/general UI features are way to nice. Rock solid. Yep, if you have a crap computer, you can skip that part. I prefer to have a top PC and enjoy all the new technologies features, instead trying to tweak an OS to run on a old hardware, what is just a waist of time.

2. Visual Studio. Yep, there is nothing to compare with that one. I use Eclipse/Kdevelop/Monodevelop on linux, they don't compare with VS. Even VS Express (free version) is better that Eclipse/Kdevelop.

3. DirectX. What else can i say.. Best games runs on it for a reason.

4. Office. No more comments. Who hate ribbon, i am sorry for you guys, you just hate MS and don't love new stuff.


And some words.. I've seen some peoples arguing about MS asking money for OS. Well, give me a Linux distro who bring those new technologies on table AND I PAY FOR IT. Seriously. Give something comparable for real and I PAY. And i am not the only one who will maybe. Until then, "fanbois" stop for a minute.

And don't forget, MS is pushing forward almost all hardware vendors with their technologies, not linux.

And yea, for all linux "fanbois" who will reply: Keeping the bad parts about linux hidden dont make next distro better. Better we show what we like, maybe next distro will be better.

Whaaaat the hell...?

...Musn't...feed...troll......

/bites finger

[Closed_Port]

No, Open Office 3 dont have ribbon implemented because of some stupid linux "fanbois" who hate ribbon just because is made from MS and refuse to ignore all his functionality/ergonomy.


Is that so? And you can probably point me to the discussion on the OO mailing list where the developers decide not to implement something like ribbon not because they might think it's a bad idea, not because they might not have the manpower to have done it for the OO3 release, not because they might have had other priorities, not because they might have feared to get into legal trouble for infringing on MS' intellectual property, but because of some, as you so endearingly put it, stupid linux fanbois.

Thanks in advance.

[yse]

Is that so? And you can probably point me to the discussion on the OO mailing list where the developers decide not to implement something like ribbon not because they might think it's a bad idea, not because they might not have the manpower to have done it for the OO3 release, not because they might have had other priorities, not because they might have feared to get into legal trouble for infringing on MS' intellectual property, but because of some, as you so endearingly put it, stupid linux fanbois.

Thanks in advance.

http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=14629&p=68483&hilit=ribbon#p68483

Thats one of them.. and there are a lot others, just use search.

Thank you.

[panickedthumb]

Office 2007 is amazing, and the Xbox 360 is loads of fun, RRoD issues aside.

[Closed_Port]

http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=14629&p=68483&hilit=ribbon#p68483

Thats one of them.. and there are a lot others, just use search.

Thank you.
Ehm, it's a forum discussion where some people talk about giving OO a more modern look and they even link to a project working on this. So how is this an answer to my question? Are you joking?

[Dragonbite]

I know Office 2007's Ribbon is cumbersome at first, but after using it for a while I like it for the most part.

Sometimes I still have to hunt-and-peck to find the button that does what I want it to, but even that has and will diminish as I get more time on it.

I love being able to hid the entire thing so I can see much more of the "meat" of the file (spreadsheet, slide, document (esp Publisher), etc.

[yse]

Ehm, it's a forum discussion where some people talk about giving OO a more modern look and they even link to a project working on this. So how is this an answer to my question? Are you joking?

Did you actually read the discussion?

[jespdj]

I am not a Microsoft hater. Besides Ubuntu I use Windows Vista (at home) and Windows XP (at work).

Microsoft is very good at marketing; Bill Gates is a very good business man. Windows is not the de-facto OS on almost all computers because it's technically superior, but because Bill Gates sold it to the whole world.

Microsoft is not so good at innovation. What they are good at is taking technology invented by others, building their own version and then adding proprietary stuff to it, and making everybody use their proprietary version. That's how Microsoft corrupts open standards. An example where they tried this and failed is with Sun's Java. Sun sued Microsoft and Microsoft lost. After that they made the .NET framework which is built on exactly the same concepts as Java EE. The .NET framework is not bad, but Microsoft didn't invent the concepts on which it is built.

Another thing that I don't like on Windows is that people ask money for even the silliest little programs. I was looking for a mass renaming tool once, and found a utility that cost $10. Likewise there is a Compiz-like desktop cube program for Windows that costs $25.

I love the free and open source philosophy of Linux. There is also open source software for Windows, but far less than there is for Linux.

The fact that Adobe programs run on Windows is ofcourse not Microsoft's merit. If Adobe would make Photoshop for Linux, I would buy it.

I can't think of anything in Windows that's really better than in Linux. Technically, Windows is not a very exciting OS.

Someone mentioned Visio - note that Visio wasn't originally developed by Microsoft. They bought the company that made Visio a few years ago.

[Closed_Port]

Did you actually read the discussion?
Yes, I did. And some random poster on this forum discussion said he didn't like ribbon.

But you surely can't be of the opinion that this is a good anwer to this request:
And you can probably point me to the discussion on the OO mailing list where the developers decide not to implement something like ribbon not because they might think it's a bad idea, not because they might not have the manpower to have done it for the OO3 release, not because they might have had other priorities, not because they might have feared to get into legal trouble for infringing on MS' intellectual property, but because of some, as you so endearingly put it, stupid linux fanbois.

[super breadfish]

Well I'm posting this from Vista, so I'm not exactly a fanboy, though I'd always use Linux when given the choice.

Office 2003 is pretty good. Microsoft hardware is usually good too. Xbox 360, mice and keyboards, hell, even the Zune isn't that bad (I'd have one over an Ipod any day).

[panickedthumb]

Well I'm posting this from Vista, so I'm not exactly a fanboy, though I'd always use Linux when given the choice.

Office 2003 is pretty good. Microsoft hardware is usually good too. Xbox 360, mice and keyboards, hell, even the Zune isn't that bad (I'd have one over an Ipod any day).
The Zune! Yes I forgot about that. If there was only a way to use a Zune in Linux. Seriously, Zunes are great devices. I don't understand why they get such a hard time.

[swoll1980]

Whaaaat the hell...?

...Musn't...feed...troll......

/bites finger

Thus proving Swoll's Law (ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=6636874)

[Koori23]

Flight Simulator is an amazing piece of software.

I must agree. I have "Century of Flight" which is sorta old now (2004). It's still fun.

I actually think Flight Simulator pre-dated Windows. Don't know where I read that.

[deadlines]

I will grudgingly give Microsoft some praise for these two things:

1. Windows XP Professional - perhaps one of the most stable workstation operating systems around for corporate users that do not work in design and high-end graphics. Doesn't hurt for gaming either.

2. Microsoft Outlook - There are many many things negative I can say about Microsoft, but Outlook is not one of them and is a damn nice email client. Yes, I'm fully aware there is multitude of alternatives.

[WatchingThePain]

Yeah Windows has done a lot for computing including driving me to Linux, and now I am in computer heaven. I have viewed this new windows and it seems to suck hence Microsoft are consistent. Touch screen haha. Another gimmick (which will 'sucker' in loads of 'sheep'). If I am munching a hamburger and touch my screen that means a mess.
Apple had touch screen computers in the early 80's and I think it's safe to say it never caught on. 'The Herd' to me is Windows users.

[jrusso2]

Its so funny I am Microsoft Certified for many years and used Linux for more years then most on the forum have been able to. So I promote either one depending on whats right but I am seeing a lot of names that always argue against me when I say Microsoft does something better now they are trying to come up with positives.

[MarblePanther]

My current Microsoft mouse is the most well-made and responsive mouse I've ever used (love it).

Bill Gates is a very resourceful and intelligent person.

Silverlight/Moonlight is much higher definition than Flash

XP is a fairly stable and lean OS when it is not wide-open to the internet (and careless users)

[BuffaloX]

Visual Studio is the best IDE ever written. People will argue that you can only write .Net langauges on it. But that is not the point. If you could program other languages in Visual Studio you would. It's just that great (And the complete reason I keep an XP VM around).

The reason it's the best, is because all the competition has been killed by MS. Watcom and Borland and maybe Aztech used to be superior, but dependency on MS for specifications on the Windows API, combined with the usual MS tactics killed them.

They've done a lot for computing in general. Nobody can deny that.


No they haven't, mention just ONE positive thing they have done for computing.


I think Steve Ballmer is funny.

I think he's scary.

Microsoft helped bring computers to general users. That's about all I can think of.

No they didn't
Sinclair, Commodore, Apple and IBM along with many others did that, MS just happened to make a sweat deal with IBM at a time when IBM was under investigation, which is the reason IBM didn't make their own OS, then MS were lucky again that the PC turned out to be so successful because of the PC clones.

To all you MS Office lovers, it's really great that you love your MS Office, because every competitor to MS Office have been killed by MS strategies. Luckily we have Open Office, but it only survives because it's helped by SUN because SUN hates Microsoft, and want to put a dent in their profits.
This is because SUN had to pay more for MS licenses, than it would cost them to develop their own office suite!

[glotz]

A challenge for all you Micro$oft apologists:

Can you stop loving M$, just say for a day?

[cardinals_fan]

A challenge for all you Micro$oft apologists:

Can you stop loving M$, just say for a day?
I have never loved Microsoft. They make products I usually don't want to use and have many ethically dubious practices. What irritates me is those who whine desperately about "M$" and their monopolistic ways, then drive off to the supermarket to buy products grown with Monsanto seeds or ADM crops.

Regarding the topic, Windows printing usually works. I hate CUPS with a fiery passion, and am considering a Windows partition just so I can print with it.

[MarblePanther]

I have never loved Microsoft. They make products I usually don't want to use and have many ethically dubious practices. What irritates me is those who whine desperately about "M$" and their monopolistic ways, then drive off to the supermarket to buy products grown with Monsanto seeds or ADM crops.

Regarding the topic, Windows printing usually works. I hate CUPS with a fiery passion, and am considering a Windows partition just so I can print with it.

Most people aren't aware (sadly) of their genetically-altered food purchases made possible by evil companies like Monsanto. I'm sure they would care if they knew.

[PhoenixMaster00]

Office 2007 is pretty good ill admit that. Xbox 360 is very good (infact the crash rate isnt to dissimilar to PS3's) Xbox live is pretty good to.

Plus without Microsoft who would we get to make all the jokes about? Apple? Their not as funny :P

[pastalavista]

Microsoft started as a business because computers started as buisiness machines. If they hadn't been so innovative and ambitious, (or if early unix/linux geeks would have been more-so), it would be a different world. I think computers should come with only minimal (or fancied-up) free software. It would save the PC manufacturers millions and probably wouldn't hurt Microsoft as much as Microsoft has hurt the flexibilty of the compter in general. Most Microsoft fanatics would still pay for their comfortably familiar OS and the "power users" could keep improving the open source. I am thankful for Microsoft. I just wish they hadn't stormed the beach so forcefully.

[abyssius]

Actually, it's the most unconvincing point in this thread. MS got important because IBM licensed the quick and dirty operating system MS had bought (which was basicly a clone of CP/M) for their PCs.
What has how DOS came about got to do with anything? IBM offered to buy DOS outright but Bill Gates elected to take a licensing fee instead. If the IBM PC wasn't a success, Gates would have lost big time. This was a visionary business tactic that Gates should be given credit for. Anyway, the origination of DOS is irrelevant to the fact that MS-DOS-based computers introduced the vast majority of the world's users to personal computing.

Then, largely as others started making clones of the IBM-PC, the PC became a defacto standard.
This is another unconvincing argument. Microsoft is a software company. If it wasn't for the attraction to MS-DOS based applications, the clone-makers would never have emerged. Where are the Commodore, Amiga, TI, Apple, clones? At one point, Commodore was out-selling IBM-PC's.
How this translates to MS bringing computing to the masses is beyond me. Er, how about the prevalence of MS-DOS based business applications, games including the original Windows... How can MS being the operating system of choice on over 90% of all the world's computers not indicate to you that MS brought computing to the masses?

[jrusso2]

I must agree. I have "Century of Flight" which is sorta old now (2004). It's still fun.

I actually think Flight Simulator pre-dated Windows. Don't know where I read that.

I recall having flight simulator on my DOS IBM PC well before Windows was out.

[MarblePanther]

I recall having flight simulator on my DOS IBM PC well before Windows was out.

I can back this up, I have a floppy set of it (still works :) )

[SonnHalter]

i love the 360 and .......wait what?

[Methuselah]

I think the premise of this thread is all wrong.
Specifically that if you dislike Microsoft or windows you're a fanatic.

My first computer ran windows 98 and I was a windows user for many years before I even installed linux much more become comfortable enough with it to ditch windows altogether.
I no longer care for windows not because of some irrational fanatical hatred but because I started to find it deficient and/or intrusive.
If there were enough good things about it I'd still be using it!

I suspect many linux/mac users might feel the same way.

[abyssius]

Microsoft started as a business because computers started as buisiness machines. If they hadn't been so innovative and ambitious, (or if early unix/linux geeks would have been more-so), it would be a different world. I think computers should come with only minimal (or fancied-up) free software. It would save the PC manufacturers millions and probably wouldn't hurt Microsoft as much as Microsoft has hurt the flexibilty of the compter in general. Most Microsoft fanatics would still pay for their comfortably familiar OS and the "power users" could keep improving the open source. I am thankful for Microsoft. I just wish they hadn't stormed the beach so forcefully.

Like it or not, MS drove virtually all the technical innovations for Personal Computers over the last 30 years. Linux today runs mostly on computer hardware designed for IBM-PC. After many years of poo-pooing Intel-based systems, even the mighty Apple adapted almost every technology originally designed for the IBM-PC. I also think that using the term "Microsoft Fanatics" is over-reaching. The vast majority of Windows users don't think that way. I'd propose most aren't even aware of any type of OS rivalry. If you think about it, fanaticism is more apt in niche worlds like Linux or Apple.

[abyssius]

I think the premise of this thread is all wrong.
Specifically that if you dislike Microsoft or windows you're a fanatic.

My first computer ran windows 98 and I was a windows user for many years before I even installed linux much more become comfortable enough with it to ditch windows altogether.
I no longer care for windows not because of some irrational fanatical hatred but because I started to find it deficient and/or intrusive.
If there were enough good things about it I'd still be using it!

I suspect many linux/mac users might feel the same way.

I think this thread is addressing those who choose to express hatred toward Microsoft. I don't think the original poster is suggesting that everyone that changed to an alternative OS automatically hates Microsoft. I am now a Linux user for 1 year. I like it better than Windows, but I wouldn't claim that Linux is superior to Windows in every aspect of computing - especially in a comparison of available applications. No OS trumps Windows in that regard.

[swoll1980]

I recall having flight simulator on my DOS IBM PC well before Windows was out.

I remember playing Jungle Hunt on the C=64, back when windows were just things I looked out of when I was grounded.

[abyssius]

I remember playing Jungle Hunt on the C=64, back when windows were just things I looked out of when I was grounded.

I still have some C-64 software on single-sided 5.25 floppy disks. Now, if only there was a way to read them... ;)

[PurposeOfReason]

I've never been a Microsoft hater, but here are some good things to remember.

Microsoft brought computers to the masses.
Microsoft lowered the price of the average PC, if at the expense of bloat.
Microsoft has advanced anti-virus software greatly. If linux was the majority, it would get attempted hits with viruses, not as easily, but it would be a problem.
Windows is a tweakers haven, for all you who know how to use the registry. ;)
Microsoft is competition, competition is always good.
Windows mobile killed the plague that was palmOS (if just starting a new one).

[cprofitt]

Microsoft does not lock you in to 'Microsoft' hardware.
Microsoft does not lock you in to over-priced hardware
Active Directory can support Windows, Linux and OS X machines
Visual Studio is the 'best of breed' IDE
Microsoft created business for consultants and computer support businesses
IE 6, 7 or 8 is better than Safari
Xbox / Xbox 360
Microsoft is not Apple

[PurposeOfReason]

I forgot, MSpaint. I have yet to find a linux tool that can top it. For being so simple, linux is lacking.

[jrusso2]

I've never been a Microsoft hater, but here are some good things to remember.

Microsoft brought computers to the masses.

I think apple did this way before Microsoft.

Microsoft lowered the price of the average PC, if at the expense of bloat.

I think IBM letting Compaq have the bios did this it let the PC become more open to anyone which made it cheaper with a lot of different companies making it.

Microsoft has advanced anti-virus software greatly.
Microsoft anti virus was recently stopped from being sold. It never performed well.

If linux was the majority, it would get attempted hits with viruses, not as easily, but it would be a problem.

Doubtful but it could with social engineering like Apple.

Windows is a tweakers haven, for all you who know how to use the registry. ;)
Linux can be tweaked too just as much and no registry except gnome.

Microsoft is competition, competition is always good.
Windows mobile killed the plague that was palmOS (if just starting a new one)

Palm OS was out of date because they left it a single talking OS in a day when Multitasking was needed. The new Palm OS looks pretty good. The iPhone already sells more then Windows Mobile which is getting outdated now.

[swoll1980]

I still have some C-64 software on single-sided 5.25 floppy disks. Now, if only there was a way to read them... ;)

Download the roms, (perfectly legit if you own the originals) and run them on a C=64 emulator. The nostalgia alone, is worth it's weight in gold.

[MarblePanther]

Download the roms, (perfectly legit if you own the originals) and run them on a C=64 emulator. The nostalgia alone, is worth it's weight in gold.

http://www.c64.com/

[BuffaloX]

1:
What has how DOS came about got to do with anything? IBM offered to buy DOS outright but Bill Gates elected to take a licensing fee instead. If the IBM PC wasn't a success, Gates would have lost big time. This was a visionary business tactic that Gates should be given credit for. Anyway, the origination of DOS is irrelevant to the fact that MS-DOS-based computers introduced the vast majority of the world's users to personal computing.

2:
This is another unconvincing argument. Microsoft is a software company. If it wasn't for the attraction to MS-DOS based applications, the clone-makers would never have emerged. Where are the Commodore, Amiga, TI, Apple, clones? At one point, Commodore was out-selling IBM-PC's.

3:
Er, how about the prevalence of MS-DOS based business applications, games including the original Windows... How can MS being the operating system of choice on over 90% of all the world's computers not indicate to you that MS brought computing to the masses?

1:
It was indeed a good business strategy, making Microsoft loads of money.
But it was only possible for Bill Gates because IBM was under investigation. MS-DOS was not what introduced the world to computers, it was IBM and other hardware vendors.
MS-DOS contained absolutely nothing new or particular attractive, What was new was the IBM PC (16 bit and all that jazz).
I guess this was the lesson that taught Bill Gates that a good strategy is more important than a good product.

2:
because of before mentioned investigation IBM left the PC architecture open. This allowed the clones to transform the success of the PC into the defacto business standard, and even enter home computing.
Other popular systems before the PC could not be legally cloned.
The PC offered an unparalleled combination of Vendor backing and vendor independence.

3:
Games came to the PC because it was huge, DOS sucked at games, but games just used DOS to load, and then took over the system.
Microsoft did very poorly at any applications for DOS.
Windows 1 and 286 and 386 sucked so badly nobody wanted it.
For some weird reason IBM thought it was a good idea to let Microsoft help develop OS/2, and with the knowledge and money gained from this, Microsoft finally had success with Windows 3.0. Microsoft back stabbed IBM with its own money and technology, and succeeded in winning the OS war.
Windows 3.0 was no wonder even at the time, you just had to look to either Apple or Commodore to find something better, except they were not PCs.

[abyssius]

I think apple did this way before Microsoft.
Depends on how you define masses. Apple was extremely expensive when they first came out. I don't think the "masses" could afford them. If we're talking strictly hardware for the masses here, then I think maybe Commodore should wear that crown.


I think IBM letting Compaq have the bios did this it let the PC become more open to anyone which made it cheaper with a lot of different companies making it.
Maybe this makes sense in terms of hardware, but Microsoft software was the basis for Compaq and all other subsequent clones. So in terms of OS software - MS can still be considered the market driver.

Microsoft anti virus was recently stopped from being sold. It never performed well.
All anti-virus software advances can be credited to Microsoft, since the lion's share of these apps are developed specifically to defend MS Windows.


Linux can be tweaked too just as much and no registry except gnome.
Sometimes, Linux can be tweaked too much! ;)

[abyssius]

Re: point 1: In business, a good marketing strategy is always more important than a good product. Ask Apple. If they rested entirely on their "good product" laurels, they wouldn't even have advanced to where they are today. No matter how you look at it, the IBM PC would be a chunk of metal and plastic without MS-DOS. IBM targeted businesses with DOS-based applications that solved problems. Commodore focused on being a toy.

Re: point 2:
History has proved that an open architecture stance as opposed to Apple's closed proprietary hardware/software position was the correct market move for the PC industry. MS also deserves credit for the "open architecture" policy you describe. Because, since MS still owned the OS, if they decided to keep it proprietary, IBM wouldn't have been able to implement this strategy.

Re: point 3: Blanket condemnations like "DOS sucked" really don't add anything intellectual to the debate. Also, if it were true that "nobody wanted" DOS/Windows then both MS and IBM would have went out of business. Nobody wanted Commodore that's why they finally failed. How can you make a statement like Apple and Commodore were not PC's??? How do you define a "PC"?

[RiceMonster]

Sometimes, Linux can be tweaked too much! ;)

What? How can something be tweaked too much?

[Faolan84]

Really the only thing I like about Windows is the fact that manufacturers always make drivers for it. But since I don't use Windows and only buy compatible hardware, it is never a problem for me.

Really I find a Gnome based linux distro superior in almost every way. To me Microsoft is a legacy company offering a more primitive system at a cost I don't agree with.

[BuffaloX]

1:
Bill Gates made a good business decision, I'm not denying that, but this was made possible by circumstance, and on top of that he was lucky.

2
I don't quite get your response, MS-DOS was proprietary software, and of course closed source, and owned by Microsoft. What did it enable IBM to do?

3
I just wrote DOS sucked for games, do you really seriously want to argue against that? :confused:
I also wrote MS DOS didn't offer anything new. If you believe it did, then what was that?
Nobody wanted Windows 1.0 or 286 or 386.
Of course nobody is not meant literally. But sales were very slow until Windows 3.0 came out, Which was very much helped by the joined OS/2 development.

[pirate_tux]

Having an opinion for something, like Linux, is not difficult and it is easy to then demonize and put down the "competition", like Microsoft, at every turn.

Unfortunately this is also part of the criteria of a fanboy, or fanatic.

The question is, can you say something positive aboue Microsoft? Can you actually "see" from the other person's point of view?

Since there are so many arguments both for- and against-Microsoft there has to be some merit to both sides of the coin, but can you find it?

I've noticed a growing anti-Microsoft feeling but I wonder if it is blind following the herd like sheep or are you actually making a choice?

If I new I would die tomorrow I would put a bomb of mass destruction on Micro$oft Headquarters! lol

But I don't think I'm a Micro$oft hater.

[swoll1980]

Re: How do you define a "PC"?

A PC is a IBM based system. Commodor , and apple didn't make PCs. They did things their own way, and fell into obscurity(well commodor did anyways). I think this is one of Linux's biggest problems, w/o out any kind of standard it makes it difficult for a lot of hardware/software companies to buy into it.

[snowbalance]

As much as I hate IE I love NETFLIX Instant Queue. Can't figure out a way to make it run on Linux (WINE absolutely won't work for me). Also I love my Zune, and it won't run on Linux either ): sad.

[pirate_tux]

Really the only thing I like about Windows is the fact that manufacturers always make drivers for it. But since I don't use Windows and only buy compatible hardware, it is never a problem for me.

Really I find a Gnome based linux distro superior in almost every way. To me Microsoft is a legacy company offering a more primitive system at a cost I don't agree with.

+1

Primitive, obsolete, bloated, back-doored, full of bugs and insecure.

[pirate_tux]

If I were a cannibal I would eat Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer at breakfast.

Does this qualifies me as a Micro$oft hater?
I hope not. lol

[snowbalance]

I think it makes you something else ;)

[Jags_FL]

Though nowadays I use Windows and Ubuntu, I've never been a Microsoft hater...


Microsoft does not lock you in to 'Microsoft' hardware.
Microsoft does not lock you in to over-priced hardware
Xbox / Xbox 360
Microsoft is not Apple


Excellent points.

I've seen everywhere people rant so much about virus on Windows. Now I'm using Windows since like 1989 (on multiple PCs most of the time) and only once one of my PC was infected with virus and that too because of my own fault as I was tryin to install a 'cracked' software from net(noticed something got installed and formatted the PC right away)... D'uh what else you get

And I don't have any problem with Microsoft making millions, after all its a business entity just like hardware manufacturers...

Also, as many have said:

* Microsoft brought computers to the masses
* Windows' font rendering is awesome.
* You're free to install any damn app you can find
Especially Windows Mobile:
As with Windows Mobile you're free to do what ever you wanna do with it... Its your cell phone, once you pay for it, you should be able to install any damn apps you want on it (I've got AT&T Tilt and I use it as 'mini-laptop' :D )

Guess I can add some more but these much should be fine to get an idea...

[Faolan84]

* Windows' font rendering is awesome.

Yeah, it's pretty darn good. I'd have to agree with that, but I think FreeType is better with the exception of fonts that are explicitly designed to use ClearType rendering: Calibri and such come to mind. Otherwise I do thing MS did give Apple a run for their money recently with ClearType.

[Closed_Port]

Re: point 1: No matter how you look at it, the IBM PC would be a chunk of metal and plastic without MS-DOS. IBM targeted businesses with DOS-based applications that solved problems. Commodore focused on being a toy.
You are right, the IBM-PC needed an operating system. However, that doesn't translate to it being a chunk of metal and plastic without MS-DOS. This would only be true if MS-DOS had been the only game in town IBM could have chosen, which it wasn't or if MS-DOS had brought something unique to the IBM-PC, which it didn't. Case in point: Originally IBM thought about licensing C/PM, the very operating system that QDOS, the OS Microsoft bought, was a copy off.

Now, nobody says that MS didn't make a lot of brilliant business decisions, but I still fail to see and so far you have not been able to show how buying an operating system that was based on an other operating system and then licensing it for the platform that by no doing of MS became the defacto standard translates into bringing computing to the masses.


Re: point 2:
History has proved that an open architecture stance as opposed to Apple's closed proprietary hardware/software position was the correct market move for the PC industry. MS also deserves credit for the "open architecture" policy you describe. Because, since MS still owned the OS, if they decided to keep it proprietary, IBM wouldn't have been able to implement this strategy.

Now you really get your history tangled up.
1. It was not IBM's strategy to have an open architecture. Compaq reverse-engineered the BIOS. That's what started the clones and thus the PC business.

2. What are you talking about when you say that MS had an "open architecture" and did not keep their OS proprietary? I honestly don't understand what you are trying to say.


Re: point 3: Blanket condemnations like "DOS sucked" really don't add anything intellectual to the debate. Also, if it were true that "nobody wanted" DOS/Windows then both MS and IBM would have went out of business. Nobody wanted Commodore that's why they finally failed. How can you make a statement like Apple and Commodore were not PC's??? How do you define a "PC"?
First off, the poster you answering said that nobody wanted the first versions of Windows because they weren't very good. I think if you look at their market success or lack thereof he simply states a fact.

As to DOS: It simply wasn't a very advanced operating system even for its time. I don't think pointing this out does translate to simply stating "DOS sucked" and I think it's intellectually dishonest to simply state that MS and DOS brought computing to the masses without even trying to point out what it was that made DOS so unique and good that it became the standard OS not because of what others have mentioned before but because of its merits. So, please point out the technical merits of MS-DOS that made it unique and brought computing to the masses. And please explain how the competing DOSes fit into this.

Finally, if you want to know why people are saying that DOS wasn't very good, simply look up why companies like Compaq felt they had to build something that was hardware compatible with the IBM-PC though DOS was also available for other non-compatible platforms. One of the reasons for this, the main reason, was that DOS was so inadequate that people had to program directly to the hardware as the DOS-API simply didn't provide sufficiently advanced options.

[glotz]

* Windows' font rendering is awesome.You guys are aware of the Micro$oft patent mine field surrounding the issue and that being the reason it hasn't yet been duplicated and surpassed on Free Software? #-o

[ch0d3]

Gaming for sure. Visual Studio is a very nice IDE for c/c++ & .net stuff. That's about all I use it for.

[RiceMonster]

You guys are aware of the Micro$oft patent mine field surrounding the issue and that being the reason it hasn't yet been duplicated and surpassed on Free Software? #-o

Well now I take can't your post seriously

But I don't think I'm a Micro$oft hater.

You see the irony in this sentence right?

[pol666]

Windows is not so bad, but Sometimes it's makes me headache.

There're software that binds me to use Windows, exmp: Guitar pro (I don't like Tux Guitar) , Guitar Rig, and some other game.

Oh, Office 2003, it's good!

[Kazade]

OK, I can't resist a challenge..

Good Things about Microsoft

They make good keyboards, mice and joysticks
Microsoft Word 2003 was awesome.. 2007 would be better if it weren't for the ribbon. It'll be even better with ODF support coming
Excel is good.
Samba seems to be quite a good thing.

Bad Things about Microsoft

Continuous vendor lock-in ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vendor_lock-in#Microsoft )

Illegal abuse of their monopoly
( see the Opera lawsuit - before anyone mentions "how come they get into trouble when everyone else bundles a browser?" -
a. They are a monopoly, rules are different.
b. Try removing Internet Explorer from Windows. )

The whole OOXML debate. The flawed security model of Windows. The implementation and support of Digital Rights Management. The inability to follow any kind of standard properly. The MS Java VM embrace, extend, extinguish attempt (which eventually led to C#). The appalling installation process for Windows (e.g. messing up the MBR making other OSes unaccessible). The anti-Linux FUD they continue to spread (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft#Misrepresentation). The continuing bloating of Windows with each version. The list goes on and on.

Ultimately, most of the bad rep comes from their business practices, rather than their software.

The way I see it, if the market was fair, if every PC sold had the option of any operating system without Microsoft's marketing machine influencing the whole thing, Windows would not stand a chance (in its current state) against the main Linux distros. It lags on features (apt, compiz, multiple desktops etc.), security, standards compatibility and (IMO)usability. Microsoft would then be forced to innovate. Unfortunately, that's not the case. I can continue to dream :)

[BuffaloX]

You guys are aware of the Micro$oft patent mine field surrounding the issue and that being the reason it hasn't yet been duplicated and surpassed on Free Software? #-o

Too bad they were 20 years late with their patent. :^o

http://www.grc.com/ctwho.htm

Unfortunately this patent has scared many open source developers from implementing sub pixel font rendering.
But honestly anyone working with graphics on computers would soon discover sub pixels, provided they had color monitors. Personally I discovered this in the mid 80's, which doesn't make me particular smart, it's just that at the time I fiddled quite a bit programming graphics on my Amiga, and investigating how pixels on my monitor interacted, using a magnifying glass, and comparing it to the RGB values in my code. As a programmer of color graphics, you are literally forced to work with sub-pixels, since everything is broken down to RGB values.
I didn't notice this on my C64, probably because it only had 16 colors, and RGB values wasn't available.
Seems Wozniac was there 10 years before me.
I never really used sub pixeling, because you need a different algorithm for all monitor pixel layouts in existence. Plus on a CRT monitor the resolution rarely matched the mask.
Today limiting sub pixeling to work on LCD monitors greatly simplifies the process, because sub pixels are always organized horizontally or if the monitor is rotated vertically, and there is only two types of order for the subpixels, limiting the needed algorithms for perfect rendering in each case to four, even then many rendering systems only works with horizontal RGB since this covers the vast majority.

Sorry simply had to get this off my chest. :P

[guitar_man]

When I started using computer,I though Microsoft is the only OS in the world.After 2 decades Ive meet the penguins...
All I can say about Microsoft is that did hard work for the computer industry.
They have large supports for hardware.
And I really love the way they made Xp.

[happysmileman]

Windows Vista/7 look very pretty (I would say prettier than any other OS does without a lot of effort)
Microsoft isn't Apple.

[saulgoode]

The only good thing I can say about Microsoft is that its fanboys don't clutter up Linux forums with threads about how people should say nice things about it.

Oh, wait...

[forrestcupp]

I didn't notice this on my C64, probably because it only had 16 colors, and RGB values wasn't available.

On the C64, we used dithering techniques to make it appear to have more than 16 colors. When it was done properly, it really looked pretty nice, especially since most C64 users were plugged into a blurry TV instead of a sharp monitor. So, I guess dithering was similar to the sub-pixel techniques only we were limited by a very low resolution.

[Dragonbite]

The only good thing I can say about Microsoft is that its fanboys don't clutter up Linux forums with threads about how people should say nice things about it.

Oh, wait...

Ha! :lolflag: I don't think I can quite be considered a fanboy ... if you see me on other forums you'd probably call me a devil's advocate (defend ubuntu on opensuse forums, opensuse on fedora forums, etc.)
:guitar:

[HittingSmoke]

Great post. I'm so often put off from discussing Linux with other Linux users because of their militant and often ignorant hatred of Microsoft. (as you said, sheep)

I love Microsoft Game Studios. I regularly attend gaming focus groups at the Microsoft HQ in Redmond, partially because they bribe me with free stuff, but mostly because it's fun to have a hand in giving my input on games directly to their developers. (developers developers, lol!)

Microsoft has made some fantastic OS's. Windows XP is wonderful in terms of functionality and stability. For any informed PC user, XP is just as secure as Linux. I've run XP boxes on always-on connections with no security to speak of other than a router firewall and No-Script style plug-ins for years with no viruses. It's a matter of common sense people.

Any business that makes it to the top is branded as evil sooner or later, MS just managed to make it there in a big way.

[RiceMonster]

The only good thing I can say about Microsoft is that its fanboys don't clutter up Linux forums with threads about how people should say nice things about it.

Oh, wait...

The good thing about Linux is that it's fanboys don't clutter up the forums with Microsoft hate threads.

Oh, wait..

Ps. One thread != cluttering up

[Giant Speck]

Ps. One thread != cluttering up

No, but it is becoming tiring to see any more threads comparing Windows and Linux. They may all start out different, but given time, they all degrade and devolve into simpler, fanboy-based arguments.

[Faolan84]

I like to play Age Of Empire II, which is a Microsoft game. Halo for the Xbox was pretty sweet too, so they do make great games, I'll give them that. Heck Empires I & II even works great in WINE. Haven't gotten around to see if III will play in WINE on this old box that I'm using. My awesome laptop got stolen after I ended up homeless in Oregon, but it could have handled it :(

[jflaker]

many have made comments on their great keyboards, mice and joystick.......Most of those devices are manufactured by Logitec and stamped with Microsoft's logo...

As for the xbox line...They are manufactured in Hungary and with devices like NVIDIA video, seagate drives and likely an off the shelf Motherboard customized for the system....It is a group of hardware for which the XBox OS is customized around for speed and efficiency.

MicroSoft if SOFTWARE only with select hardware private labeled for MS.

[-grubby]

I forgot, MSpaint. I have yet to find a linux tool that can top it. For being so simple, linux is lacking.

Linux does have a clone: Kolourpaint.

[PurposeOfReason]

Linux does have a clone: Kolourpaint.
I've tried it, it is no comparison.

[glotz]

How bout http://gpaint.sourceforge.net/ or http://www.tuxpaint.org/

[Giant Speck]

How bout http://gpaint.sourceforge.net/ or http://www.tuxpaint.org/

GPaint is probably closer to paint than TuxPaint. TuxPaint seems to be geared toward children, kind of like Kids Pix, if anyone remembers that program when they were a kid. :P

[HittingSmoke]

many have made comments on their great keyboards, mice and joystick.......Most of those devices are manufactured by Logitec and stamped with Microsoft's logo...

As for the xbox line...They are manufactured in Hungary and with devices like NVIDIA video, seagate drives and likely an off the shelf Motherboard customized for the system....It is a group of hardware for which the XBox OS is customized around for speed and efficiency.

MicroSoft if SOFTWARE only with select hardware private labeled for MS.

Xbox uses ATI for graphics and Toshiba for the drives. The Zune uses Toshiba HDD's as well. What's your point?

All hardware manufacturers of every sort (not just computer related) outsource most of their components. Very few TV makers make their own screens, and even those ones have processors, memory and the like made by other companies. That's the nature of building hardware. That doesn't make it any less their product.

How many parts in an HP computer do you think are built in a HP manufacturing plant?

The Xbox line is fantastic, and it was brought to us by Microsoft. That's just the bottom line. If you want to split it up into individual components and criticize them for not building it from scratch then you have no business buying anything hardware related.

I'm willing to bet the RAM in your PC is labeled something like Kingston, OCZ, Corsair, Crucial, Mushkin, etc, but crack open any one of those and I'll bet the chips are labeled Samsung or Micron...

I'ts hypocritical to criticize this practice if you buy absolutely anything with electronics in it.

[Closed_Port]

Ha! :lolflag: I don't think I can quite be considered a fanboy ... if you see me on other forums you'd probably call me a devil's advocate (defend ubuntu on opensuse forums, opensuse on fedora forums, etc.)
:guitar:
Hm, somehow another term comes to mind here...
Strictly in the spirit of playing devils advocate, or course. :P

[Closed_Port]

Great post. I'm so often put off from discussing Linux with other Linux users because of their militant and often ignorant hatred of Microsoft. (as you said, sheep)

Hm, calling other people sheep makes you seem so rational and levelheaded. Amazing. :popcorn:

[-grubby]

I've tried it, it is no comparison.

They're almost exactly the same...

[glotz]

Hm, calling other people sheep makes you seem so rational and levelheaded.
Not to mention the term is usually used to refer to a majority. ;)

[t0p]

My mouse has got "Microsoft" printed on it. It's a pretty good mouse.

[Zenze]

While I used to think that MS was incapable of making any sort decent software by themselves I do like a few of their products (I don't know if they made them first-hand or not but oh well).

MS Office is a great program, its easy to use and lets me do everything I would ever need it to.

I am also impressed with their gaming division. The software on the 360(NXE or whatever) and Xbox Live are both great and seem very efficient.

[HittingSmoke]

Hm, calling other people sheep makes you seem so rational and levelheaded. Amazing. :popcorn:

You don't make much sense there. The point I was making is that having a rational, civilized and intelligent conversation with the majority of Linux users about Microsoft and it's products is about as common as a civilized online political discussion.

I know there are lots of people out there who hate Microsoft for well informed reasons, but for the most part is people who are just following the fad. They repeat what they hear without doing their own informed research and anyone who disagrees is just an idiot because they use and/or don't bash Windows/MS. (i.e. the sheep following...)

The day I can log onto this board and read at least a hand full of posts where one doesn't have the Micro$oft of WindDOZE junk I will be impressed.

And misspelling the above is akin to typing like a 13 year old playing Counter Strike IMHO, who thinks saying things like 133t, n00b and 0wnt makes them look cool, smart or trendy. It just makes it impossible for me to take your argument, or anything else related, seriously.

These kind of Microsoft haters remind me of Apple users. "I must buy it to be trendy because the commercials tells me so"

[PurposeOfReason]

They're almost exactly the same...
I just went to their website, sure has come a lot further since I used it. Where's my gtk version!

[BuffaloX]

1:
Microsoft has made some fantastic OS's. Windows XP is wonderful in terms of functionality and stability. For any informed PC user, XP is just as secure as Linux. I've run XP boxes on always-on connections with no security to speak of other than a router firewall and No-Script style plug-ins for years with no viruses. It's a matter of common sense people.

2:
Any business that makes it to the top is branded as evil sooner or later, MS just managed to make it there in a big way.

1:
Windows XP is noway as secure as any typical Gnu/Linux distro.
It can be made to be much more secure than its default settings upon installation, but how many disables RPC for instance?
How many use Outlook Express for mail, or IE6 for browsing, all and more are known to have security issues.

2:
They didn't just "manage" to get there, they used every unethical trick in the book and broke laws, this is not just some blunder that happened on occasion, but is a general concept of Microsoft.

[clhsharky]

I don't hate Windows,

Its easy to use, has some nice software available. Its a money pit!

[yse]

1:
Windows XP is noway as secure as any typical Gnu/Linux distro.
It can be made to be much more secure than its default settings upon installation, but how many disables RPC for instance?
How many use Outlook Express for mail, or IE6 for browsing, all and more are known to have security issues.


Why the hell everybody compare with XP always???

XP is 10 years old and you compare latest linux with it?

Compare with Vista SP1 ... as long as you have time, in august W7 comes out..

[imlinux]

http://linuxgazette.net/issue45/orr.html

[cardinals_fan]

If I new I would die tomorrow I would put a bomb of mass destruction on Micro$oft Headquarters! lol

But I don't think I'm a Micro$oft hater.
I realize this was meant to be funny, but it just comes across as disturbed. Talking about killing people solely because you know you wouldn't face consequences isn't remotely amusing, even in jest.
GPaint is probably closer to paint than TuxPaint. TuxPaint seems to be geared toward children, kind of like Kids Pix, if anyone remembers that program when they were a kid. :P
How about mtpaint?
My mouse has got "Microsoft" printed on it. It's a pretty good mouse.
+1
1:
Windows XP is noway as secure as any typical Gnu/Linux distro.
It can be made to be much more secure than its default settings upon installation, but how many disables RPC for instance?
How many use Outlook Express for mail, or IE6 for browsing, all and more are known to have security issues.

Not as secure out of the box. Anyway, user incompetence is the only security flaw needed on any OS.
Why the hell everybody compare with XP always???

XP is 10 years old and you compare latest linux with it?

Compare with Vista SP1 ... as long as you have time, in august W7 comes out..
Because XP is what came with my machine and therefore costs me the same amount to install after the fact as a Linux distro. And because I like it pretty well.

[BuffaloX]

Why the hell everybody compare with XP always???

XP is 10 years old and you compare latest linux with it?

Compare with Vista SP1 ... as long as you have time, in august W7 comes out..

Because the person posting uses XP, and postulates XP is as secure as Linux, which is an outright lie.[-X

[cardinals_fan]

Because the person posting uses XP, and postulates XP is as secure as Linux, which is an outright lie.[-X
By default. The only way in which my customized XP install is insecure is that it depends solely on Microsoft for security updates.

[Faolan84]

I think with the recent release of MS Windows Vista, Microsoft has thoroughly proven that they can (1) no longer maintain the Windows NT line and make in significant changes to its architecture without severely breaking it and (2) that all their talant and luck had dies off. Heck, even Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer have now jumped ship.

I think the poster who said let's not compare Linux to Windows XP (SP3 or not) is right, let's compare it to Windows Vista, since that is their flagship, the "best offering." Honestly, can one make the statement that Vista is better than what Ubuntu, Arch, or OpenSuSE is offering -- I think not. Linux stomped Windows then, and Linux still stomps Windows now. By the time Window 7 comes out, the distros will have also improved and they will stomp MS once more.

In my opinion Microsoft should just stick to gaming and office software. Forget all that OS mumbo-jumbo because they can no longer offer a top notch system. All Microsoft has been doing for the last almost decade now is pissing in the public pool that is the free market. Then they blame the problem on others for not adhering to their undocumented "standards" while poorly supporting commonly supported standards touted by ISO and ANSI.

[pirate_tux]

The only good thing I can say about Microsoft is that its fanboys don't clutter up Linux forums with threads about how people should say nice things about it.

Oh, wait...

lol Post of the year... lol

[pirate_tux]

I think with the recent release of MS Windows Vista, Microsoft has thoroughly proven that they can (1) no longer maintain the Windows NT line and make in significant changes to its architecture without severely breaking it and (2) that all their talant and luck had dies off. Heck, even Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer have now jumped ship.

I think the poster who said let's not compare Linux to Windows XP (SP3 or not) is right, let's compare it to Windows Vista, since that is their flagship, the "best offering." Honestly, can one make the statement that Vista is better than what Ubuntu, Arch, or OpenSuSE is offering -- I think not. Linux stomped Windows then, and Linux still stomps Windows now. By the time Window 7 comes out, the distros will have also improved and they will stomp MS once more.

In my opinion Microsoft should just stick to gaming and office software. Forget all that OS mumbo-jumbo because they can no longer offer a top notch system. All Microsoft has been doing for the last almost decade now is pissing in the public pool that is the free market. Then they blame the problem on others for not adhering to their undocumented "standards" while poorly supporting commonly supported standards touted by ISO and ANSI.

Great post. Clever analysis.

[BuffaloX]

By default. The only way in which my customized XP install is insecure is that it depends solely on Microsoft for security updates.

You can make XP very secure as a personal desktop.
Problem is not all companies can make their system as secure, because they rely on some of the services that has vulnerabilities.

On a fresh install I used to disable more than 10 services, never used IE except for downloading Firefox, never used outlook or outlook express.
Never used MS Office, used pop-tray to check mail on the server so suspicious or irrelevant mails could be deleted directly on the server.
Installed Suns Java instead of MS Java.
the firewall was set up in my router, because I don't trust that something couldn't override a firewall installed in Windows.

These steps cannot be done by an average user, an average user following generally sound procedures is still at risk of getting infected. I know because I've seen it happen soo many times.

[yther]

Hm, nice things to say... surely I can come up with something...

Well, Microsoft Groove is actually a fairly nice product. I never fooled with it until recently, but it seems like a good way for our clients to give us read & write access to certain files; these are mostly people who don't even understand what FTP is. ;)

[dragos240]

In their latest commercials they seem to be looking a bit towards open source. Like in one they said "that we can all build onto to make it beter". That gives me an idea that Microsoft will be heading into open source soon.

[MarblePanther]

In their latest commercials they seem to be looking a bit towards open source. Like in one they said "that we can all build onto to make it beter". That gives me an idea that Microsoft will be heading into open source soon.

http://www.microsoft.com/opensource/
http://www.codeplex.com/

^^^
they already have, unless you mean opensourcing windows

[forrestcupp]

Installed Suns Java instead of MS Java.

Lol. I almost forgot about MS Java Virtual Machine. We don't have to worry about that one anymore. It bit the dust in 2001.

[BuffaloX]

Lol. I almost forgot about MS Java Virtual Machine. We don't have to worry about that one anymore. It bit the dust in 2001.

Microsoft agreed to phase it out in 2001, but alas it was included with servicepack 1 more than a year later...

And for years after that my bank recommended Microsoft Java.

I wouldn't be surprised if there are still systems out there using the old MS Java.

[MikeTheC]

Mr. Palpatine head says:


http://www.head-cleaners.com/palpatine.jpg

Let the hate flow through you.

[forrestcupp]

Mr. Palpatine head says:



I like your signature. I just watched the movie you quoted the other day.

[cmat]

The graphics system is good. If a full screen OpenGL app crashes on Ubuntu you are stuck with a desktop at the same resolution of the application. That was fixed on windows back in the 2000 days. Also much better handwriting recognition software. That's all I can think of Vista and XP have been a joke for me and XP dying on me was the punchline.

[bakedbeans4life]

If this has been said before, I apologise in advance (this thread is getting on for 16 pages in just 3 days).

Because of the horsepower required to run the latest version of Windows, hardware more than adequate to run Linux (insert your particular favorite flavour of BSD here as an alternative) is now reasonably priced.

What more could a Linux user ask or wish for from the omnipotent hand of Microsoft?

Did I miss something?

[bakedbeans4life]

Mr. Palpatine head says:


http://www.head-cleaners.com/palpatine.jpg

Let the hate flow through you.

Damn it if that is not the spitting image of one of my ex-landlords.

[Tom Mann]

Microsoft, love them or hate them, gave us the ability to sell software. Even Linux companies do it (in a way). It took some guts to create the market.

[bakedbeans4life]

Microsoft, love them or hate them, gave us the ability to sell software. Even Linux companies do it (in a way). It took some guts to create the market.

"It took some guts to create the market." I think you give Microsoft a little too much credit, I bought games and applications for the Spectrum, Acorn Electron and Commodore 64 in my teens (the early eighties).

They did not "create the market", they just took advantage of an already existing infrastructure. That they made it their own, and you may have a point.

[BuffaloX]

Microsoft, love them or hate them, gave us the ability to sell software. Even Linux companies do it (in a way). It took some guts to create the market.

The kind of weird notions that float around. :confused:

They neither created a market nor gave us the ability to sell software.

We've been over the stuff about creating the market earlier in this thread, it is pretty clear that the success of the PC is not because of Microsoft, but probably rather despite of Microsoft.

I suppose that by ability to sell software you are thinking of copyright, and also copyleft.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_copyright

"Federal courts interpreted the Copyright Act to give computer programs the same copyright status as literary works"

Bill Gates and Microsoft had nothing to do with it.

[bakedbeans4life]

The kind of weird notions that float around. :confused:

They neither created a market nor gave us the ability to sell software.

We've been over the stuff about creating the market earlier in this thread, it is pretty clear that the success of the PC is not because of Microsoft, but probably rather despite of Microsoft.

I suppose that by ability to sell software you are thinking of copyright, and also copyleft.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_copyright

"Federal courts interpreted the Copyright Act to give computer programs the same copyright status as literary works"

Bill Gates and Microsoft had nothing to do with it.

I sorta said this...

best I get my coat

[JackieChan]

Microsoft Widnows is what initially taught me how to use computers. Windows is a great OS for people new to computers, that's easily it's most identifiable feature. Without Windows, I would not be on a computer right now. It easily taught me all the basics.

A couple native programs also taught me some basics. Movie Maker taught me the basics of video editing, and after that I moved onto more advance video editing programs, and became a state award winning film maker and won a college scholarship. Windows was really my 'baby steps' into computers, and without it I would not be 'walking' right now. Windows is great for learning basics!

And also, you have to remember, Microsoft makes fantastic hardware! I have tons of Microsoft hardware. Microsoft also makes the Xbox 360. The Xbox Live Arcade is one of the reasons I'm still interested in console gaming! :)

[WatchingThePain]

I still have some C-64 software on single-sided 5.25 floppy disks. Now, if only there was a way to read them... ;)

Right, Your grounded!!

[eneville]

Visual Studio is the best IDE ever written. People will argue that you can only write .Net langauges on it. But that is not the point. If you could program other languages in Visual Studio you would. It's just that great (And the complete reason I keep an XP VM around).

vim is a better editor for code. learn to use it (http://www.s5h.net/unix/vim/). the short cuts and programmability that vim has is far more advanced. visual studio rots the mind (http://www.charlespetzold.com/etc/DoesVisualStudioRotTheMind.html)

[adamlau]

My nLited XP install is much more responsive than even Ubuntu Minimal + Xfce. Uses more initial resources, but there is no comparison in general use snappiness. In fact, a heavily stripped (slipstreamed with current hotfixes and drivers) and nLited XP is likely faster than Arch + Xfce on the same hardware. If NSA hardening techniques are applied, a properly nLited XP can hold its own against almost anything.

[Boaslad]

I wouldn't say that I "hate" Windows. It's a good system for the huddled masses. Most of the people I know are sticking with it and well.. Good for them I suppose. They do have a large base of readily compatible programs made specifically for it. Most of these are "safeguard programs" such as spy/adware blockers, anti-virus and firewalls, that wouldn't be necessary if Microsoft would close all the back doors... sorry... and hey Windows does have a great game selection, provided of course that you have the latest and best hardware and support software (which you usually DON'T) which is why I now play games on my Playstation instead because it has never told me I can't play my new game because my hardware doesn't support it... again off subject... Give me some credit, I am trying to be positive here but is difficult. And Windows is highly customizable, provided all you really want to customize is the color and the mouse pointer.... oops.. perhaps I should shut up now... I think I just realized that I actually DO "Hate" Windows...

[zcartist]

I would be quicker to talk up the positives of Ubuntu. MS has so many problems, picking them out is easy. In the interviews with Mark Shuttleworth, he doesn't do much win or Mac bashing (if any) only talks up open source. I have friends who thought ubu was all command line and not GUI. Don't get me wrong I think its a fun thread but if people were more educated about open source Canonical would have a much bigger share. I appreciate vista because it frustrated me and I searched out Ubuntu.
There's 1 for the windows column

[BuffaloX]

I sorta said this...

best I get my coat

Haha you made a point, except Microsoft were there way before C64 and Spectrum.
This dates back to Altair Basic 1975, and Bill Gates open letter 1976.
The C64 and Spectrum didn't come out until 1982.

But still your argument has some merit, since software sales were perfectly normal and without problems, pirating was already considered pirating in 1982. And at that time Microsoft was not so big and powerful as they were soon to become.

[jimi_hendrix]

xbox live > psn

i love windows 7....i cant deny i do, but i will continue to use linux also

[djsroknrol]

Well, if the roles were reversed...would you buy Linux?

Billy Boy was at the right place, at the right time and came to market with a product that the people needed....so it boils down to capitalism vs. FOSS.

Just my .02

[MarblePanther]

Well, if the roles were reversed...would you buy Linux?

Billy Boy was at the right place, at the right time and came to market with a product that the people needed....so it boils down to capitalism vs. FOSS.

Just my .02

I'd just use freeBSD or OpenSolaris in that case :)

[BuffaloX]

Well, if the roles were reversed...would you buy Linux?

Billy Boy was at the right place, at the right time and came to market with a product that the people needed....so it boils down to capitalism vs. FOSS.

Just my .02

Like Linux is a virtual monopoly that come pre-installed, Windows a small proprietary OS?

Who would make programs for Windows if it only had about 2 percent of the market?
Microsoft wouldn't have enough resources to make all the stuff they do today. There would be nothing attractive about Windows, and it would quickly die. Reversing the roles would mean the death of Microsoft.
Maybe Microsoft only use 1/10 th of their earnings on development, but if they only earn 1/50 th, they would need to use 5 times their earnings on development.
They wouldn't have nearly the level of hardware support they enjoy today. Everything would work better with Linux than Windows, because all vendors would contribute drivers. Apps would be developed for Linux.
Linux scales both up and down, everything from mobile phones to supercomputers, which segment would be open for windows to compete in?
Windows has no technological merit that would justify its existence.

Sorry I don't know how to reverse the roles without it all becoming paradoxical and impossible.

So I guess if the roles were reversed, I would use some vendor backed distro or Debian, since I suppose that in that reality Ubuntu would never have been created.

[raul_]

Being standard.

It's very rare to not getting something to work on Windows

[stinger30au]

i wish a device driver for linux as as easy to install as windows

point and click to install file

done

thats about the only positive thing i can think of

[MikeTheC]

Sorry I don't know how to reverse the roles without it all becoming paradoxical and impossible.
In my Intro Algebra college class, we would call that a Contradiction or, possibly, an "Empty Set".

Microsoft was not started for the same reason as the Free Software Foundation. They exist on a continuum with some considerable philosophical distance between them.

Also, this whole notion of "Capitalism vs. F/OSS" is a straw man argument at best. F/OSS is a conduit, not a condition. Generally, the idea is to use F/OSS as a means of introducing a concept and having it improved by the community to an extent far greater than the originator could by him/herself alone. The general theory is that you make money from something else, like support or associated hardware, etc. Neither RMS nor Linus Torvalds nor Eric S. Raymond nor anyone else in the F/OSS movement is against people making money through their own work.

[Perkins]

Much as I disagree with some of their business practices (Like the occasional "accident" that kind of points to a total lack of ethics) Microsoft does do a few things right.

Mostly these few things consist of having hardware support for virtually anything PC related the day it comes out, if not before. The tiny bits of things left over have to do with hiding the machinery behind the GUI in such a way that it doesn't intrude upon the peace and tranquility of the average, technopeasant user, without making it so inaccessable as to be completely unrepairable if something breaks.


Put it this way. Bill Gates is quite good at figuring out what the average joe needs his OS to be able to do, and designing a system that will do everything for everyone out of the box. But it quite often becomes a classic case of "jack of all trades, master of none."


Most of the problems they have, in my opinion, stem from the way they run their programming shops. They split their people into teams, and whichever one delivers a working product first gets to keep their jobs. Not the one who produces the best version, or the smoothest running version. The *first* one. As a consequence the code they write tends to sacrifice run-time efficiency and space efficiency for writing-time efficiency, and be full of unforseen flaws which must be corrected later (generally not until after the flaws have generated enough complaints that they're worried about being sued.)

Personally I like this guy's take on it all. (computers and operating systems in general) Good article, worth the time to read.

http://www.cryptonomicon.com/beginning.html

[halovivek]

for me i can say
1. microsoft office 2007
2. windows live writer
3. 99.99 % of trading software. merly not even .0000001% is available for linux
4. Friendly use.

[ghindo]

Microsoft Surface seems like a very promising product. Seems pretty cool.

Silverlight is providing a more opensource-friendly alternative to Flash.

Photosynth is a very interesting technology that I hope we see a lot more of in the future.

Windows 7 looks like it could be a very viable OS. I know I'll probably buy it for my gaming computer when it comes out.

Bill Gates does excellent philanthropic work.

Microsoft gives open source software competition.

[glotz]

Bill Gates does excellent philanthropic work.

No, he doesn't. http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-gatesx07jan07,0,6827615.story

And to say Silverlight is providing a more opensource-friendly alternative to Flash is like saying Hitler is providing a more people-friendly alternative to Stalin. You know, still not too friendly.

[Giant Speck]

And to say Silverlight is providing a more opensource-friendly alternative to Flash is like saying Hitler is providing a more people-friendly alternative to Stalin. You know, still not too friendly.

That analogy really doesn't make too much sense to me... :-k

[Dragonbite]

No, he doesn't. http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-gatesx07jan07,0,6827615.story

And to say Silverlight is providing a more opensource-friendly alternative to Flash is like saying Hitler is providing a more people-friendly alternative to Stalin. You know, still not too friendly.

Silverlight is opensource-friendly in that there is Moonlight available not 3 months later after reverse-engineering, but right now.

[Icehuck]

No, he doesn't. http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-gatesx07jan07,0,6827615.story

And to say Silverlight is providing a more opensource-friendly alternative to Flash is like saying Hitler is providing a more people-friendly alternative to Stalin. You know, still not too friendly.

You have fulfilled Godwin's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law) by making the jump from Microsoft to Hitler. Though I'm sure some other twit already made the comparison earlier.

When you stop using oil based products you can complain about them making wise investment choices.

[forrestcupp]

vim is a better editor for code. learn to use it (http://www.s5h.net/unix/vim/). the short cuts and programmability that vim has is far more advanced. visual studio rots the mind (http://www.charlespetzold.com/etc/DoesVisualStudioRotTheMind.html)

Ah, the never ending argument.

I'd rather spend my time learning to write better code than waste it trying to learn a complex editor.

[eneville]

Ah, the never ending argument.

I'd rather spend my time learning to write better code than waste it trying to learn a complex editor.

You'd write cleaner and better formatted code with a better editor that works for you rather than working for itself.

Vim gives us the power to create without needing to power the mouse. Think how much more efficient you'd be if you never had to read for the mouse to move around your code.

I found my productivity shot through the roof once I didn't have to move my hands from the keyboard.

One of the key design principles behind vim was to make it efficient. Being able to wrap commands within maps (aliases) allows you to whack out macros from single key strokes. This can apply to advanced features such as checking in, starting the compile sequence, debugging, grepping, or whatever else you want to pull in. You have the whole suite of unix tools attached to your key strokes. I think that's just way too good an offer to pass up.

One thing is better in Visual Studio than vim, and that's probably the dialog editor. But that's as far as I'd go with it. Everything else is sub optimal.

[ghindo]

And to say Silverlight is providing a more opensource-friendly alternative to Flash is like saying Hitler is providing a more people-friendly alternative to Stalin. You know, still not too friendly.Microsoft works directly with the Mono team to help them make Moonlight (the OS alternative to Silverlight) better. I haven't ever heard of Adobe ever helping the Gnash or Swfdec teams develop their product.

The whole "Hitler vs. Stalin" analogy is exactly the type of rhetoric which hurts open source, not helps it.

[glotz]

Micro$oft is what hurts Free Software, not helps it.

[TalioGladius]

I know there won't be many people that agree with me, but to hell with it.

As a Windows Server engineer, there's nothing that touches the M$ stuff in datacenters. However, I honestly think that linux is a far superior workstation OS than anything microsoft has ever put out. Only problem is marketing and the fact that most folks don't have the capacity to run something that requires something other than next, next, next, and finish dialog boxes.

[HittingSmoke]

No, he doesn't. http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-gatesx07jan07,0,6827615.story

And to say Silverlight is providing a more opensource-friendly alternative to Flash is like saying Hitler is providing a more people-friendly alternative to Stalin. You know, still not too friendly.

Well, this thread has run it's course. I was enjoying the discussion for a while.

I try not to post past the inevitable and incredibly ignorant Hitler reference on subjects like this.

[CrazyDesi]

Like many have posted there is nothing that compares to Word 2007. I also like my XBOX 360 and I believe Microsoft has done a lot for computing. I don't hate Microsoft at all.

[Vendaval]

Microsoft Live Labs keeps producing great work, photosynths are even released under a Creative Commons license automatically.

[ghindo]

Microsoft Live Labs keeps producing great work, photosynths are even released under a Creative Commons license automatically.Woah, really? I didn't know that. That's pretty darn cool. I don't think I can quite convey how much my mind was blown when I first saw the Photosynth at TED:

http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/blaise_aguera_y_arcas_demos_photosynth.html

[Chilli Bob]

Exchange and Outlook are great in a small office environment. (Though I have to re-boot SBS 2003 R2 at least once a week.)

Excel is a pretty good.

My MS mouse is great.

Movie maker is a handy little program considering it is included for free.

[EnGorDiaz]

Microsoft needs to be applauded for its ability to buy its way to being the primary gaming OS.

im running out, lol. Microsoft office is easy to run in wine, so that never felt like a true reason either.

I guess it also needs to be said that overall, windows probably supports more hardware out the box than any linux distro - but its still a toss of the coin if it all works.
Bare in mind that most people had windows pre-installed for them when they picked up their 'puter from the store.
Said it before and ill say it again, gaming is where windows has people cornered, otherwise, i see absolutely no reason to use windows, unless their hardware really isnt compatible for linux, which is rare in my opinion.

Need to quickly add : used to LOVE encarta :P


linux supports millions of types of hardware even more than you can imagine when you insert the disc the x server evolves into your hardware same with alsa it auto pin configs itself and to say everything is supported in windows out of the box is obsurd

countless numbers of processors dvd players tivo tvs mobile phones

[fatality_uk]

Point to note. Microsoft DIDN'T develop photosynths
http://livelabs.com/photosynth/history/

As with pretty much every other major technology they have released, Microsoft bought in the tech and delivered it to the world. That's one of their strong points, a total market dominance and huge cash reserves.

[Kazade]

You'd write cleaner and better formatted code with a better editor that works for you rather than working for itself.

Vim gives us the power to create without needing to power the mouse. Think how much more efficient you'd be if you never had to read for the mouse to move around your code.

I found my productivity shot through the roof once I didn't have to move my hands from the keyboard.

One of the key design principles behind vim was to make it efficient. Being able to wrap commands within maps (aliases) allows you to whack out macros from single key strokes. This can apply to advanced features such as checking in, starting the compile sequence, debugging, grepping, or whatever else you want to pull in. You have the whole suite of unix tools attached to your key strokes. I think that's just way too good an offer to pass up.

One thing is better in Visual Studio than vim, and that's probably the dialog editor. But that's as far as I'd go with it. Everything else is sub optimal.

Hmm.. OK, I don't want to start a flame war or anything but I can't resist replying :)

I use VIM regularly and have done for a few years, although I'm no expert. I've worked with people that are, and ultimately I don't think a user who is proficient in VIM (or Emacs) is much more efficient than someone who is proficient in some GUI IDE with their own keyboard shortcuts with a terminal alongside.

It's all a matter of personal taste. I personally am really proficient with the normal keyboard shortcuts (combinations of CTRL, SHIFT, arrow keys, Home, End, PgUp, PgDown, function keys etc.) and I can navigate a document pretty quickly without the mouse. If I'm programming, my IDE provides keys for starting the debugger, setting breakpoints, compiling, setting watches, opening files etc. pretty much anything I need.

Granted I do miss the ability to do stuff like deleting up to a certain character. But the minor amount of efficiency I lose there is definitely made up in other ways (class wizards, symbols browsers, project managers, build settings dialogs etc.)

Me and my friend have this debate over and over, it really gets nowhere. It comes down to personal preference.

That said, MSVC is not the best IDE in the world BY FAR. The code completion sucks (and generates huge files alongside the project), I hate the way the settings are organized, the associated compiler doesn't even support C99. Code::Blocks is far nicer and I'm just discovering the amazingly simple and flexible plugin system which I'm using to fill any gaps in its features that I find. Eclipse or Netbeans are great Java IDEs but I wouldn't use them for C++, right tool for the job and all that (although I hear CDT is improving).

[forrestcupp]

That said, MSVC is not the best IDE in the world BY FAR. The code completion sucks (and generates huge files alongside the project), I hate the way the settings are organized, the associated compiler doesn't even support C99. Code::Blocks is far nicer and I'm just discovering the amazingly simple and flexible plugin system which I'm using to fill any gaps in its features that I find. Eclipse or Netbeans are great Java IDEs but I wouldn't use them for C++, right tool for the job and all that (although I hear CDT is improving).

I'll agree with you that it's all about personal taste. But I have to disagree with what you said here. I've tried Code::Blocks and many, many others, and I've never found anything that comes close to being as good as MSVC's Intellisense. I know it's personal taste, but Intellisense does more for me than any set of keyboard shortcuts could do. The only other IDE I've found that comes close in code completion was MingGW Studio, and you can't even hardly find that anymore. It's like it vanished from the earth.

I will say that Code::Blocks' implementation of code completion is better than DevCpp's, though.

[forrestcupp]

One thing I really like about MS is their clip art that comes with MS Office. They've got a lot of quality clip art and photos that are royalty free and public domain that you can use in anything you want. I've searched the net for free royalty-free photos, and I've never found anything that matches MS's offerings.

[Dragonbite]

One thing I really like about MS is their clip art that comes with MS Office. They've got a lot of quality clip art and photos that are royalty free and public domain that you can use in anything you want. I've searched the net for free royalty-free photos, and I've never found anything that matches MS's offerings.

While it isn't quite the same quality as MS's clip art, there's quite a lot at Open Clip Art.

Open Clip Art Library : http://www.openclipart.org/

This project aims to create an archive of user contributed clip art that can be freely used. All graphics submitted to the project should be placed into the Public Domain according to the statement by the Creative Commons. If you'd like to help out, please join the mailing list, and review the archives.

[eneville]

Hmm.. OK, I don't want to start a flame war or anything but I can't resist replying :)

I use VIM regularly and have done for a few years, although I'm no expert. I've worked with people that are, and ultimately I don't think a user who is proficient in VIM (or Emacs) is much more efficient than someone who is proficient in some GUI IDE with their own keyboard shortcuts with a terminal alongside.

Well, it depends on the way that you look at your desktop. Do you see your desktop as something that runs linux in a vm, or do you run VS inside a windows vm? For me it was the latter. Windows was just something that I used to run IIS in. I did all the code on the linux host and VS was just used to debug it. The company was a MS house, not much I could do to change that.

It's all a matter of personal taste. I personally am really proficient with the normal keyboard shortcuts (combinations of CTRL, SHIFT, arrow keys, Home, End, PgUp, PgDown, function keys etc.) and I can navigate a document pretty quickly without the mouse. If I'm programming, my IDE provides keys for starting the debugger, setting breakpoints, compiling, setting watches, opening files etc. pretty much anything I need.

All those key strokes are available in vim tooo, its just that majority of the keystrokes are bound to an alpha key.

Granted I do miss the ability to do stuff like deleting up to a certain character. But the minor amount of efficiency I lose there is definitely made up in other ways (class wizards, symbols browsers, project managers, build settings dialogs etc.)

Me and my friend have this debate over and over, it really gets nowhere. It comes down to personal preference.

Yeah I agree about this, the personal preference is very important, but honestly I've found that mutt/screen/vim are probably the three programs that I think are so vital that I just couldn't live without them. Setting up a good .vimrc can make a huge benefit to the way that it's used.

That said, MSVC is not the best IDE in the world BY FAR. The code completion sucks (and generates huge files alongside the project), I hate the way the settings are organized, the associated compiler doesn't even support C99. Code::Blocks is far nicer and I'm just discovering the amazingly simple and flexible plugin system which I'm using to fill any gaps in its features that I find. Eclipse or Netbeans are great Java IDEs but I wouldn't use them for C++, right tool for the job and all that (although I hear CDT is improving).

For moving around in code, I don't think vim can be beaten. It's just a shame that MS don't see it as worthwhile letting other editors work in their debugger. That seems just plain selfish to me.

[trepid666]

Hurray Microsoft for Halo.

End transmission

[LowSky]

Good things

They brought stability to the computer industry. Computer Software and even computer components makers didn't have to worry about what type of OS will be running the computer, less work designing drivers. Before Windows gained popularity there wer like 5 different choices for operating systems, two that come to mind are Apples MacIntosh and IBM OS/2

People could buy a computer based on specification rather than usefullnes.
For example why buy this machine when this one is faster, and the clerk could prove it. This also made Intel a household name.

Windows95 install CD had a free music video of Weezer playing the song "Buddy Holly"

Without prebundling Internet Explorer, people may still be paying companies like AOL (remember how back then you had to open the AOL program to sign on and search web pages)

Without Windows the term Blue Screen of Death wouldn't be ever heard.

[forrestcupp]

Windows95 install CD had a free music video of Weezer playing the song "Buddy Holly"

Long live Weezer! They still rock even today.

[Kazade]

I'll agree with you that it's all about personal taste. But I have to disagree with what you said here. I've tried Code::Blocks and many, many others, and I've never found anything that comes close to being as good as MSVC's Intellisense. I know it's personal taste, but Intellisense does more for me than any set of keyboard shortcuts could do. The only other IDE I've found that comes close in code completion was MingGW Studio, and you can't even hardly find that anymore. It's like it vanished from the earth.

I will say that Code::Blocks' implementation of code completion is better than DevCpp's, though.

Have you tried a recent Code::Blocks nightly? I've recently had to work on a project which required me to use VC++ express edition (I don't know whether Intellisense is better in the full version) for long periods of time but I was continually frustrated with Intellisense just not working. I was relieved to get back to the more reliable code completion in Code::Blocks. As I said, I haven't tried the full version of VC++ so it may perform better.

[sanderella]

Microsoft keeps my husband quiet and happy.:KS He can play more games.

[Bungo Pony]

I enjoyed using Microsoft Basic on my Commodore 64.

Oh yeah, I also enjoyed using Win95. I though it was a pretty innovative UI back in the day.

[albandy]

Windows Services for UNIX

[cespinal]

MS windows is the main OS in the world! period!!! that must happen for a reason! (or 2 or 34723497239473947 reasons).

Im very proud of being a "linux only" user and at the same time witness how GNU-Linux has been gaining more and more popularity, but I do recognize windows as the boss.... for now.

[forrestcupp]

Have you tried a recent Code::Blocks nightly? I've recently had to work on a project which required me to use VC++ express edition (I don't know whether Intellisense is better in the full version) for long periods of time but I was continually frustrated with Intellisense just not working. I was relieved to get back to the more reliable code completion in Code::Blocks. As I said, I haven't tried the full version of VC++ so it may perform better.

Yeah, I was using the nightly builds of Code::Blocks, and I still didn't like it as well. But I will say that if I couldn't use MS Visual Studio, that would definitely be the way to go. I liked it better than DevCpp.

Intellisense is the same in all versions of VC++. It is kind of glitchy, but there are ways of dealing with the glitches, and when it works, it works really good. If Intellisense isn't working, you usually just have to save your entire project, and it will start working. If that doesn't help, the guaranteed way of getting it to work is to go to your project's folder and delete the .ncb file. Then it will regenerate Intellisense for that project and start working. It usually messes up because either you haven't saved your project yet for the first time, or you've changed some included headers without saving your project. Also, if you're using some framework, like wxWidgets, sometimes you have to set it up to work with that framework.

But when Intellisense works, I maintain that nothing else even comes close.

[justjoshingyou]

iTunes

[MarblePanther]

Long live Weezer! They still rock even today.

I need to dig up my '95 install cd. Where is the file on it? Mine came with some bundle of games. I'll try to find Weezer on it :)

[forrestcupp]

I need to dig up my '95 install cd. Where is the file on it? Mine came with some bundle of games.
That's another great thing about MS. Windows 95 came with the game Hover! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hover!) It was pretty awesome for its time.

[HittingSmoke]

iTunes

I uhm... err, wha?

That's another great thing about MS. Windows 95 came with the game Hover! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hover!) It was pretty awesome for its time.

OMG I totally forgot about Hover! That game was great! I wasted hours on that thing every time I did a clean Windows install!

I wonder if it would run on WINE.....

*searches for old '95 disks*

[forrestcupp]

I wonder if it would run on WINE.....

*searches for old '95 disks*

Probably. At the end of the Wikipedia article, it gives a link to the official download. It's about 6 MB. It's a self extracting exe file.

[S0VERE1GN]

XboX live, its freakin incredible.

Not to mention the windows computer connectivity with the xbox makes getting a hold of your favorite songs oh so easy, right in mid game!

cant beat it.

[|{urse]

If it werent for windows's huge and vulnerable holes i wouldnt have a job right now! THANK YOU M$!!

[lethalfang]

Microsoft Windows have brought PC to every household. No doubt about it.
Without Windows (Windows-like OS), less than 1% of population would own a computer, and my laptop would in turn cost $6000 instead of $600.

[abyssius]

Microsoft Windows have brought PC to every household. No doubt about it.
Without Windows (Windows-like OS), less than 1% of population would own a computer, and my laptop would in turn cost $6000 instead of $600.

Excellent point! Is this why some Apple monitors cost $2400.00?

[Kazade]

Microsoft Windows have brought PC to every household. No doubt about it.
Without Windows (Windows-like OS), less than 1% of population would own a computer, and my laptop would in turn cost $6000 instead of $600.

That's almost certainly not true. If it wasn't DOS and Windows it would have been something else like OS2 or some unix derivative.

Bill Gates happened to be at the right place at the right time, with good (aggressive) business sense. In fact, it's very likely that without Microsoft's continued abuse of standards (especially on the web) and stranglehold on the desktop, we might well be further ahead technologically than we are now. I don't even want to imagine the number of man hours that have been wasted "fixing" web pages to work in IE alone.

[lethalfang]

That's almost certainly not true. If it wasn't DOS and Windows it would have been something else like OS2 or some unix derivative.

Bill Gates happened to be at the right place at the right time, with good (aggressive) business sense. In fact, it's very likely that without Microsoft's continued abuse of standards (especially on the web) and stranglehold on the desktop, we might well be further ahead technologically than we are now. I don't even want to imagine the number of man hours that have been wasted "fixing" web pages to work in IE alone.

I am highly skeptical that, without a revolutionary OS like the Windows 95, there would be enough motivation and/or inspiration to develop an easy-to-use GUI UNIX-derivatives like Ubuntu.

There is a good reason Microsoft is able to have a stranglehold in PC's OS business: they have revolutionized personal computing in a positive way.

[Methuselah]

Windows GUI was a ripoff of MAC.
That's historical fact, Gates saw it and knocked it off.
I did a honest search for MS innovation once, and just about everything I though of, further research revealed it to be someone else's work.

Even the original MSDOS was formerly QDOS before it was bought by Microsoft for $50000.
So even at it's outset, MS was an engine of acquisition not the home of innovation.
Microsoft's founders had business acumen and the ability to proliferate technology for profit.
However, they produced very little, if anything, that did not already exist.

[Kazade]

I am highly skeptical that, without a revolutionary OS like the Windows 95, there would be enough motivation and/or inspiration to develop an easy-to-use GUI UNIX-derivatives like Ubuntu.

There is a good reason Microsoft is able to have a stranglehold in PC's OS business: they have revolutionized personal computing in a positive way.

Windows 95 didn't need to be that revolutionary OS (and by the point of Win95 MS already had the market share and momentum). OS/2 was invented by Microsoft and IBM, Bill Gates said the following about it:

I believe OS/2 is destined to be the most important operating system, and possibly program, of all time.


That was in 1987, then he used what was learned during the OS/2 partnership to come up with Windows. If he didn't do that, then OS/2 would have been the popular desktop and we likely would have seen a whole different tree of events play out with IBM having majority control of it. (Although OS/2 was mainly designed to push IBM hardware but I still believe that if Windows didn't get there first, someone else would have done soon after).

As I said, right place, right time. There was all sorts of other stuff going on at the time, Apple was innovating then as well, Microsoft got lucky and they've been riding that wave ever since. They are like an army that accidentally found themselves at the top of a hill before a battle.

[lethalfang]

Windows 95 didn't need to be that revolutionary OS (and by the point of Win95 MS already had the market share and momentum). OS/2 was invented by Microsoft and IBM, Bill Gates said the following about it:


That was in 1987, then he used what was learned during the OS/2 partnership to come up with Windows. If he didn't do that, then OS/2 would have been the popular desktop and we likely would have seen a whole different tree of events play out with IBM having majority control of it. (Although OS/2 was mainly designed to push IBM hardware but I still believe that if Windows didn't get there first, someone else would have done soon after).

As I said, right place, right time. There was all sorts of other stuff going on at the time, Apple was innovating then as well, Microsoft got lucky and they've been riding that wave ever since. They are like an army that accidentally found themselves at the top of a hill before a battle.

Of course someone would've "done it" sooner or later, but I'm not sure how "soon" it would be. As you've said, IBM wanted to push their own hardware with OS/2 as Apple tried to push their hardware with their OS. Bill Gates was at the right time, but it's a lot more than just good fortunes. Microsoft Windows served as a catalyst for a bunch of hardware vendors on the market today. Unlike IBM or Apples, Microsoft concentrated on software, and they didn't care who was making the hardware.

[HavocXphere]

can you say something positive aboue Microsoft?
Yeah. They gave the gaming industry a standardized way of operating (DirectX). Unfortunately its a very closed/proprietary system...but that doesn't change the fact that its good.

Standardized = Same & universal in this case, not standardized as in ISO

[Closed_Port]

As you've said, IBM wanted to push their own hardware with OS/2 as Apple tried to push their hardware with their OS.

Uhm, OS/2 was not confined to IBM hardware and Warp (which is the release we should be talking about when we are talking about Win 95) focused on broader hardware support.
You also seem to forget that OS/2 started out as a joined project by IBM and MS.


Microsoft Windows served as a catalyst for a bunch of hardware vendors on the market today. Unlike IBM or Apples, Microsoft concentrated on software, and they didn't care who was making the hardware.
See above. And what about the other operating systems out there that didn't focus on who was making the hardware? How was what MS was offering different or superior?

[garwaymatt]

They make nice mice.

[cmay]

Windows GUI was a ripoff of MAC.
That's historical fact, Gates saw it and knocked it off.
I did a honest search for MS innovation once, and just about everything I though of, further research revealed it to be someone else's work.

Even the original MSDOS was formerly QDOS before it was bought by Microsoft for $50000.
So even at it's outset, MS was an engine of acquisition not the home of innovation.
Microsoft's founders had business acumen and the ability to proliferate technology for profit.
However, they produced very little, if anything, that did not already exist.
you been down that path too ? :)

[forrestcupp]

That's almost certainly not true. If it wasn't DOS and Windows it would have been something else like OS2 or some unix derivative.

Evidently, you don't remember how expensive unix systems were back when all of this was evolving. Back in the day, unix boxes made Macs look like a poor man's computer. I actually had a store that sold them close to where I was living at that time in the very early 90's.

I completely agree that it's partially a credit to MS that we have inexpensive computers.

[ELD]

Ive switched back to XP from ubuntu on my home machine as linux doesnt cut it for the apps I need.

XP is a decent, stable, quick OS when you strip it all down. I uninstall every MS app and component I can and replace them with 3rd party alternatives. XP runs great then.

XP is faster than OSX.

I like the fact that every app I need has an XP client which works great.

I have no problems with MS behaving like a business. Businesses look to screw everyone, thats how they make money. If it wasnt MS at no1 then it'd be someone else.

I think Steve Ballmer is funny.

I think Bill Gates is a top man for his foundation and charity work.

The more I use linux on the desktop, the more I see its limitations. It desperately needs 3rd party commercial apps.

Seconded.

[bubwitmaingay]

I definitely know that the true reason I shifted to Linux is that I don't have to worry about viruses. Correct me if I'm wrong about the virus thing but I never have any problems with viruses anymore after that cold breezy afternoon (in January 2009) when I installed Ubuntu 8.04 Hardy Heron and wiped out the MS OS entirely. It took me about five months to shift. (I received my CD through mail and never used it until two months later when I dual-booted Ubuntu with MS XP; it took me another three months to wipe out MS.)

The decision came when I became fed-up with MS viruses because I am a low-maintenance PC-user type. Most anti-virus applications cannot control them and I have to install several applications to control MOST of the viruses, worms and what have you. I don't hate Microsoft, maybe it was those who hate Microsoft that made it vulnerable (or those who want to profit more). The virus issue is the main thing that brought me to Linux.

Finally, I am not a gamer and don't like the virtual gaming industry, thus the shift was easier for me than most people here in my country. There are plenty of alternative applications in Linux to the MS OS softwares and I never had a problem learning them because they are so similar.

So why I don't like Microsoft?

Full of Malwares, Spywares, Worms and Viruses
I have to upgrade my hardware every now and then to keep up with the new OS
It has the same applications with Linux
It's built on money
It's expensive

[raul_]

I definitely know that the true reason I shifted to Linux is that I don't have to worry about viruses. Correct me if I'm wrong about the virus thing but I never have any problems with viruses anymore after that cold breezy afternoon (in January 2009) when I installed Ubuntu 8.04 Hardy Heron and wiped out the MS OS entirely. It took me about five months to shift. (I received my CD through mail and never used it until two months later when I dual-booted Ubuntu with MS XP; it took me another three months to wipe out MS.)

The decision came when I became fed-up with MS viruses because I am a low-maintenance PC-user type. Most anti-virus applications cannot control them and I have to install several applications to control MOST of the viruses, worms and what have you. I don't hate Microsoft, maybe it was those who hate Microsoft that made it vulnerable (or those who want to profit more). The virus issue is the main thing that brought me to Linux.

Finally, I am not a gamer and don't like the virtual gaming industry, thus the shift was easier for me than most people here in my country. There are plenty of alternative applications in Linux to the MS OS softwares and I never had a problem learning them because they are so similar.

So why I don't like Microsoft?

Full of Malwares, Spywares, Worms and Viruses
I have to upgrade my hardware every now and then to keep up with the new OS
It has the same applications with Linux
It's built on money
It's expensive


That's not the point of this thread

[BuffaloX]

That's not the point of this thread

No the point of this thread is to put MS in a positive light. =D>

[Northsider]

Number of quality programs (for me) is greater in windows: ArcGIS, AutoCAD, video converters, etc. Of course linux has them too, but I feel the windows ones are superior. Gaming hands down, windows is superior. I have never been able to get one single game to work in Linux...even native linux games crash on me (because of compiz I'm told). In fact, I've never been a fan of wine in general for anything.

One other thing, I *usually* don't have to do any fiddling with windows. Even with my fiance's linux laptop, she only used it for internet. It was working fine (after hours and hours of swearing and fiddling for wireless), but then after a kernel update..BAM...back to fiddling and fiddling. With her windows boot it works fine, albeit slowly.

I've never been 'for' or 'against' Microsoft, they do some things well, and others not so well at all. I like the freedom of linux (the philosphy) and I like the ease of use I get with windows...that's why I use both.

[raul_]

Number of quality programs (for me) is greater in windows: ArcGIS, AutoCAD, video converters, etc. Of course linux has them too, but I feel the windows ones are superior. Gaming hands down, windows is superior. I have never been able to get one single game to work in Linux...even native linux games crash on me (because of compiz I'm told). In fact, I've never been a fan of wine in general for anything.

One other thing, I *usually* don't have to do any fiddling with windows. Even with my fiance's linux laptop, she only used it for internet. It was working fine (after hours and hours of swearing and fiddling for wireless), but then after a kernel update..BAM...back to fiddling and fiddling. With her windows boot it works fine, albeit slowly.

I've never been 'for' or 'against' Microsoft, they do some things well, and others not so well at all. I like the freedom of linux (the philosphy) and I like the ease of use I get with windows...that's why I use both.

Offtopic: World of Goo is a native game for Linux that has been having many positive reviews. You can try the demo for free.

[r m h]

I don't hate Microsoft. Microsoft is the most visible and most widely acknowledged reason that much FOSS exists today.

If the proprietary/closed source software vendors weren't screwing* their customers by the way they treated them over the preceding decades, then there would be far less impetus for the FOSS movement.

Yes, we can be thankful for Microsoft and many other vendors.

Now, what specific Microsoft innovation/original product can I be thankful for? Hmmm, I'm drawing a blank, sorry. I can only come up with 3rd party software and drivers that were created specifically to run on Windows. Oh, perhaps the printing subsystem, but, no, that's all about the 3rd party drivers, not Microsoft's product(s)...



* screwing their (primarily commercial) customers by means of the following:
annual maintenance costs vs. benefit from that cost
releasing known buggy applications as GA prior to code complete
technical support and bug fixes

[MedianMajik]

Having an opinion for something, like Linux, is not difficult and it is easy to then demonize and put down the "competition", like Microsoft, at every turn.

Unfortunately this is also part of the criteria of a fanboy, or fanatic.

The question is, can you say something positive aboue Microsoft? Can you actually "see" from the other person's point of view?

Since there are so many arguments both for- and against-Microsoft there has to be some merit to both sides of the coin, but can you find it?

I've noticed a growing anti-Microsoft feeling but I wonder if it is blind following the herd like sheep or are you actually making a choice?

I have couple thoughts on this that have probably already been listed in a torrent of responses. Of course you'll notice a "negative" feeling in the forum for an operating system that has different than Microsoft. You'd notice the same tensions if we were all Google employees at a trade show. You're dealing with the 1% of users who do not use Microsoft or Apple. Some of this small percentage hope to be left alone in an "On the Road" sort of way. I feel the benefits of Microsoft are obvious:

1. Buy it and read the instructions
2. Ask a neighbor or friend to do it for you
3. You can talk to your friends about XP or Vista without sounding lame
4. Run all the latest games and high grade editing software
5. Others can use your computer easily like your mom and girlfriend

I will not be checking up on this thread. Reasons vary from user to user. Windows has a tradition behind it that my parents and friends cling to. I have no Windows product or games on my computer (besides Nethack and Barbie Seahorse Adventure). Only my girlfriend knows how to use my computer as it involves keyboard shortcuts and knowledge of Openbox. This is a problem when someone else tries to "hop on" my desktop or laptop for a minute. Their response is always WTF, but I didn't configure my system for anyone else. Cheers

[speedygonzalas]

i completely agree with MedianMajik, to say that such a small amount of users converting to linux are 'blindly following a heard of sheep' is pretty narrow minded. i switched just a month ago because i got tired of the constant crashing, i hated having to constantly defrag my computer, and i hated using anti-virus apps cuz they dramatically slow down ur comp and u still get viruses anyways, when i switched i couldn't even log onto my xp cuz whenever i tried my comp would crash, everytime. infact this comp was given to me by my parents only cuz it was so F'ed up that they got fed up with having to constantly pay for repairs, so i deleted windows all togethor and reinstalled it and soon after installed ubuntu, and since then iv only been on windows three times, and i never went on the internet with it, i wont even bother. and when i heard of linux i heard of its potential, but all from ppl who dont use it ne more cuz they hate the lack of third party apps, but i gave it a shot because its free, and i liked wat i heard. personally iv been looking for a chance to switch from windows for atleast the passed two years but never wanted to pay for a mac cuz they're too damn costly. now i say to anyone who deals with lots of bugs and uses their computer for basic everyday use to try linux, i figure that if theres something free that u might like than u may as well try it.
and again, if u think im following a 'heard of sheep' look again, non of my friends use linux, and all the sheep are sitting under bill gates' *** with vista, xp, and soon the 7. think before u talk

i sincerely hope this gives u a better understanding of why linux has some how managed to stay alive in an almost impossible fight

[speedygonzalas]

actually it kinda is, hes asking more than one question, first to say something good about ms, and also if we're a pack of 'sheep blindly following a herd'
this guys answer was completely related to this thread, u dont have to act like ur in a family counselling room if u dont want to

[Linuxforme]

I like the way Microsoft makes a lot of money. Long live Linux, freedom is precious.

[yse]

I like the way Microsoft makes a lot of money. Long live Linux, freedom is precious.

yeah, freedom and poor, nice concept.

[rafac24]

The new Vista has nice aesthetics, in my opinion. Too bad they've sacrificed speed and reliability to attain that.

[Faolan84]

well they didn't have to sacrifice speed for aesthetics. The fact is that Vista is based on a bloated, aging code base that needs to be put to rest alongside such things as the emo style fad, the policies of George W Bush, the ability to use cell phones in the cinema and in restaurants, and any format Sony has every produced in attempt to lock up the market.

Honestly I don't think vista looks all that great, and that one thing I do like about KDE 4.x over Vista in terms of style: choice. Honestly, I prefer more ambient and neutral colors as opposed to some slick artificial plastic look. Glass, certain types of metal, and wood actually have nice textures that I think one could base a pleasing style on. But that is just my tastes and opinions.

However, the developers could make Vista look as plain as newly plowed Nebraska corn field and the fact is that it would still be slow. It's not what is on top that is slowing Vista down inasmuch as what is running underneath it. Windows NT itself was a great concept -- but it was never really realized. The greatest parts of what was to be their next generation OS never came to fruition and that is the greatest tragedy of Microsoft: how they made off with billions based on false promises and lies to their customer base.

Windows NT was in 1993 to become eventually what was know as Cairo which in many ways resembles in many ways what Linux is today. The ultimate goal of the NT project was to have a core OS that could run a variety of different binary compilations. The idea was that the execution of a program would be handled by a "subsystem" which could be Windows 3.x, Windows 9x, Windows NT, MS-DOS, BSD, POSIX, and a couple other systems. However, by default only the 3.x, 9x, NT, and DOS subsystems are truly built-in components that can be ran without alteration while the BSD, POSIX, and other "subsystems" are compile-time and only exist as a formality that allows code produced on a UNIX-type system to be compiled on an NT system and then essentially converted trough the process of compilation to run under the NT subsystem. In effect, that means the non-Windows and non-Microsoft subsystem layers are not truly subsystems in the same sense as the others.

Cairo on the other was to be the future of NT: a modular OS that had a sh-like shell (called Monad in the recent projects) and a special database like indexing file system that was unlike NTFS and closer to something like a compromise of ZFS and BeFS in terms of actual functionality from an end users perspective. In other words, a magical happlyland file system.

All of these things more than likely were never really seriously developed and were probably just a way for Microsoft to announced to their early client base that the next release was going to be so much better, but only if they have their clients support (that is, money). The fact is that even with Windows 7 they are only part of the way to the Cairo vision they announced in the early 1990s. The fact is, had they not have made these promises and had they not have threatened vendors with the illegal price discrimination tactics they would not have survived. Microsoft has far to long rode on the success and advancements of Sun, Apple, Amiga, NeXT, BeOS, IBM, and many other companies that tried their hand in the market only to get "embraced, extended," and screwed by them.

Vista is the product of the Microsoft corporate mono-culture that they have themselves created. Their ability to create even a decent operating system is diminished by the fact that almost everything they have ever "innovated" has been ripped from somewhere else. They only contenders offering anything creative is off-market open source projects and their small corporate backers who have very little in the way of capital and the hipster Apple which is looked at by other corporate industries like crazy a crazy teenager at a rave -- you know the one with the thick rimmed glasses and the black and red cashmere wardrobe with the black mascara and died hair.

In the end the only real threat to Microsoft is that small community of open source and Microsoft has spent billions of dollars to make that community of developers like like charlatans, thieves, pirates, and outright liars. All this while the quality of their products as of late has declined. Maybe some of that money put into lying about the legal troubles companies running Linux could run into, maybe they should have used those funds to actually develop their products and deliver to their clients -- both present and future -- something worth paying for. Instead they've wasted many billions and millions on things like SCO to threaten vendors and Fortune 500 companies from using their competition.

It would be best if Microsoft just sticks with software and video games and not OS development. MS Office isn't really all that bad, though it's cluttered with excess features no one really uses. On top of that Age of Empires, Halo, Thrones and Patriots have all been great games. In addition they did a fairly good job with the X-Box albeit they probably should have focused a bit more on product quality with the hardware.

[bakedbeans4life]

We dislike Microsoft because of their nefarious business practices, not just because of their products. That "We" I spoke of are those IT people with a long memory (pre-Windows 95 and beyond).

You invoke a challenge, I issue one of my own, a challenge for all you Microsoft lovers. If Microsoft was wiped from the face of the earth, could you use computers and any IT at all?

I would argue that those versed in general IT skills will proliferate, those versed in Microsoft-only skills will meet their IT maker.

In over ten years, I have never been proved wrong.

[fistfullofroses]

Having an opinion for something, like Linux, is not difficult and it is easy to then demonize and put down the "competition", like Microsoft, at every turn.

Unfortunately this is also part of the criteria of a fanboy, or fanatic.

The question is, can you say something positive aboue Microsoft? Can you actually "see" from the other person's point of view?

Since there are so many arguments both for- and against-Microsoft there has to be some merit to both sides of the coin, but can you find it?

I've noticed a growing anti-Microsoft feeling but I wonder if it is blind following the herd like sheep or are you actually making a choice?

There are many things for which we need to applaud Microsoft. First, without Microsoft products' increasing need for more powerful hardware the PC would not have developed as quickly. Second, Microsoft products integrate with one another very well, they are easy to use, they push hardware upgrades that further technological development, Microsoft's gaming products are extremely good (I enjoy the Xbox anyway), and most importantly Microsoft has really pulled tons of people into computing who may not have bought a computer otherwise. Macs are really expensive, PCs not so much.

On the negative side, I hate the MS business model. Their products are way over-priced, and not quite up-to-par. The second rate software design, coupled with the widespread use sucks millions of dollars out of individual, business, and government budgets every year, and their habit of buying out their competition stymies the market.

[lethalfang]

We dislike Microsoft because of their nefarious business practices, not just because of their products. That "We" I spoke of are those IT people with a long memory (pre-Windows 95 and beyond).

You invoke a challenge, I issue one of my own, a challenge for all you Microsoft lovers. If Microsoft was wiped from the face of the earth, could you use computers and any IT at all?

I would argue that those versed in general IT skills will proliferate, those versed in Microsoft-only skills will meet their IT maker.

In over ten years, I have never been proved wrong.

You spoke it as if it's a good thing.
Microsoft's greatest achievement is that they've allowed the technologically-challenged crowd to use a computer productively. That has in turned increased drastically the popularity of home computer, accelerated hardware development, and everyone at the end is able to have a powerful computer on the cheap.

[gallaau]

I don't think it is fair that you have to keep paying over and over for the same application "license". It's like a big conspericy, microsoft charges me for windows, then they charge me for office, and they open every port they can and I have to buy a firewall and antivirus and spyware.
Then when it breaks I have to pay someone to sell me a program to fix my registry because someone else sold me a program that broke my machine.
Screw it, I am going to learn this unix stuff if it kills me.

[rzrgenesys187]

It's not apple