smalltalk

[unionjak]

hello,
For the last 4 days i have been slugging my way through a laberinth of site in a quest....to find a programming language that is good for beginners but can be used afterwards to get some slightly more serious projects completed other than "hello world". The language had to do the following :-
1. Be newbie friendly from the start.
2. Actually be usefull when some aspect of "mastery" is neared(if ever :) )
3. Be able to use visual aspects, including ide`s and drag and drop.
4. Be web, .net , java etc friendly.
5. Be data base friendly.
6. Stable and easy to fault find.
This is not all of the list, but forms the gist of it.....now for my results.

Java----far too hard, and even when using sun`s "free" studio crashed my xp/ubuntu system and created umteam errors(even when using the walk thru).

Microsofts .net was better, free but still was a nightmare for newbie`s like me.
The drag and drop aspect was good, but again using the drag and drop walkthru caused errors...and not really ubuntu friendly as yet.

Python Hmmmm was very good but i needed a visual way of development. Tried blckadder and every other ide under the sun. Not friendly to newbie`s and suseptable to version problems(how many python versions are there ?). Python i wouls keep my eye on, as several rad sofware programms are on there way, but for not for now.

Delphi/Lazerous. Could not get lazerous to play on ubuntu as yet, but looks promising, as you can (?) create web/apps/data friendly creations.

Smalltalk...now then, this is more like it. Very friendly for the newbie, rad with ide. Data/web/app standalone capable. Big support and has lots of linux support. I am trying out squeak and visualworks at the moment and they are fabulous, squeak is free and vw is non-commercial. The only problem i am having at the moment is....i dont seem to be able to view saved projects(yes, i have completed the walkthu`s)(any ideas on viewing saved work on both these programs ?)
The above is merely what i have found at the moment......any thoughts please ? Many thanks, steve.

[thumper]

Have you tried SPE (http://www.stani.be/python/spe/blog/) (Stani's Python Editor)? It is quite good. Only used it briefly so far but shows much promise.

When you say working visually, what do you mean?

[unionjak]

hello,
by visual i rapid app development...ie the quick and dirty way of draging components on to a "canvas" and adding as little code as required.
Both small talk apps that i am using are good, but i still cant save work and view it at a later date...any idea`s please ?
ps. yes i have tried spe, but like other ide`s its not a great rapid app dev tool at the moment(imho).

[doitashimashite]

Delphi/Lazerous. Could not get lazerous to play on ubuntu as yet, but looks promising, as you can (?) create web/apps/data friendly creations.



Well, I installed Lazarus without a problem. Here's my procedure:

http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=102077

[unionjak]

hello,
amazing ...it works and you can view your saved apps...thanks for that i will give it a go. As this is a free delphi, how is the best way to go about learning ie get delphi books, or only read laz stuff. In other words are the languages almost the same ?
Many thanks, steve.

[doitashimashite]

You're welcome, Steve.

Give this a try:
http://www.programmingtutorials.com/delphi.aspx

[unionjak]

hello,
can i do the following :-
set up a web page that is a clothes catalogue that enables customers to order which in turn i can process at my end ? Its a big ask, but if yes then its for me. What is your opinion on delphi/laz as far as learning curve, compared to say c++ at the top to say java, c# .net python and smalltalk ?
Many thanks for your time, steve.
ps i get the following, though laz works....
free pascal source directory not found
some functions wont work
it is recomended that you install it and set tyhe path
enviroment > enviroment options > path
shall i load up free pascal as well ?

[jobezone]

Smalltalk...now then, this is more like it. Very friendly for the newbie, rad with ide. Data/web/app standalone capable. Big support and has lots of linux support. I am trying out squeak and visualworks at the moment and they are fabulous, squeak is free and vw is non-commercial. The only problem i am having at the moment is....i dont seem to be able to view saved projects(yes, i have completed the walkthu`s)(any ideas on viewing saved work on both these programs ?)
The above is merely what i have found at the moment......any thoughts please ? Many thanks, steve.
To open a saved project, you left-click on the "desktop", and choose "Load project from file".
Yeah, squeak is really eye-opening. Check out this video (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7680106513348266522&q=squeak) showing gnu/linux (Linex) with squeak being used at Extremadura's schools (Spain).

It would really have been nice if historically gnu/linux desktops had been developed in a squeak like way. Or rather, that the principles behind squeak were part of GNOME and KDE plans. KDE already contains some of those principles. Consider this example:
- A friend of mine doesn't have internet at home. Everytime he needed a program, he wrote it in a Knote to later remember when carrying his laptop to his school.
- He kept forgetting about his note, and didn't install the programs he had jotted down.
- Using dcop and kde, he configured that when he had internet, that specific knote was shown on-screen. He didn't use low-level stuff, but all KDE technologies, like dcop commands, and dcopbrowser to find the dcop-commands he needed.

While everybody understands that this capability is totally available in gnu/linux, up to the point where you can change the sourcecode for programs, it's not as acessible as it could be, like squeak, and in the way the original poster is looking for.

[Jessehk]

Check out Ruby.

http://www.ruby-lang.org

[LordHunter317]

hello,
For the last 4 days i have been slugging my way through a laberinth of site in a quest....to find a programming language that is good for beginners but can be used afterwards to get some slightly more serious projects completed other than "hello world". The language had to do the following :-
1. Be newbie friendly from the start.
2. Actually be usefull when some aspect of "mastery" is neared(if ever :) )
3. Be able to use visual aspects, including ide`s and drag and drop.
4. Be web, .net , java etc friendly.
5. Be data base friendly.
6. Stable and easy to fault find.
This is not all of the list, but forms the gist of it.....now for my results.The only language that remotely mets all of those criteria is Java, and that's a strech. At the very least, the's the only language with a JVM implementation and a CIL implementation where you can use mostly the same classes.

Java----far too hard,If you're finding Java too hard, you have a major problem, IMO and need to bite off a smaller apple.

I recommend you start with Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs, available free online. You'll still likely need to learn another language afterwards, but that won't be a problem, I think.

You're trying to run a marathon before you can crawl. You need to start with that.

[squidieman]

Okay just as an initial caveat I am completely new to all of this Ubuntu (am running Xubuntu since it is a restored old old system) and VisualWorks. But I think that VisualWorks will really help with my research. I am trying to get it working on my system and nothing works not the net installer, or the CD, does anyone have any advice main error is that it cannot find a virtual machine. Thanks for your time.

Mark