Linus own PUBLIC apologize?

[sabot4ge]

in my opnion, yes.
he (intencionally or not) started the biggest flame war ever.
I think that he should finish it as well.

a public apologize in the gnome-user mail list and end of discussion.

what do u think?

[earobinson]

why, he is entitled to his opinion same as you and me. people just take more note of what he says, but thats not his fault nor should he have to censor him self because of it.

[manicka]

why, he is entitled to his opinion same as you and me. people just take more note of what he says, but thats not his fault nor should he have to censor him self because of it.
agreed

[Swab]

why, he is entitled to his opinion same as you and me. people just take more note of what he says, but thats not his fault nor should he have to censor him self because of it.

But he's not entitled to call people F*!@ing Idiots....

[gil-galad]

I do not think he needs to apologize, but I also don't think his opinion matters enough to warrant the posting on slashdot and other news sites.

I just hope the gnome developers refuse to pay him any attention.

[macgyver2]

in my opnion, yes.
he (intencionally or not) started the biggest flame war ever.
I think that he should finish it as well.

a public apologize in the gnome-user mail list and end of discussion.

what do u think?
I hadn't looked at KDE for about three years. After reading the current controversy, I decided to have a look last night. I seriously doubt I'm going back to Gnome...I'm too impressed with KDE. I also think that Linus made some valid points, once you dig through the wording.

Linus doesn't need to apologize to me. If this whole thing hadn't come up I probably wouldn't have looked at KDE anytime soon.

Edit:
But he's not entitled to call people F*!@ing Idiots....
Sure he is, and they can call him one back if they really want to.

[NotJustANewbie]

gil-galad, well put. The Gnome guys shouldn't take any notice of him. I used KDE for over 2 years before I switched to Ubuntu (Gnome) earlier this week from Debian Stable (KDE). KDE in my view has too many features... yes too many. Mac OSX has chosen the minimalistic route as has Gnome - KDE has chosen the feature packed route as has Windows.

[Stormy Eyes]

what do u think?

Why should Linus, or anybody else, apologise for expressing an opinion just because that opinion pissed other people off?

Personally, I think he's right in that the GNOME devs should at least include an "advanced" tab instead of making people frig around with gconf. Either include an advanced tab for preferences, or do configuration in PLAIN TEXT files so that power users can hack settings to their hearts's content. Gconf is a half-assed solution.

[macgyver2]

KDE in my view has too many features... yes too many.
I can see why you say that, but the reason I'm going the other way (Gnome to KDE) is not so much due to the number of features but instead due to how well the features that are available work and how long it takes to beat them into submission.

[Knomefan]

I just hope the gnome developers refuse to pay him any attention.
http://www.gnome.org/~jdub/blog/projects/gnome/1134482448
http://blogs.gnome.org/view/timj/2005/12/14/0
http://www.advogato.org/person/pbor/diary.html?start=33

[PatrickMay16]

But he's not entitled to call people F*!@ing Idiots....
Actually, he is. People are entitled to say anything they want. But of course, if you say whatever you want, you'll face the consequences.

[Swab]

Actually, he is. People are entitled to say anything they want. But of course, if you say whatever you want, you'll face the consequences.

Well yes, of course he can say what he wants... I just meant it's not really fair game...

[jdong]

Uhh, Linus starts a lot of huge flame wars :)

Ever tracked lkml before? ;)

[curuxz]

what a childish thread this is.... some people just can't take people who disagree

[Artificial Intelligence]

The only thing I can't accept is the way he call people (like idiots and nazis), other than that he is entitle what he thinks of Gnome, as I think of KDE...but I guess my thoughts on KDE won't make a such a big fuss on slashdot :D

[prizrak]

I hate gconf, it's reminscent of the registry (DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE)

[curuxz]

The only thing I can't accept is the way he call people (like idiots and nazis), other than that he is entitle what he thinks of Gnome, as I think of KDE...but I guess my thoughts on KDE won't make a such a big fuss on slashdot :D


So the hell what??? he called them a few names, btw this whole interferance nazi's comment is a comman phrase in the UK and realy people are getting realy pathetic on the word nazi, saying he should appologise for his freespeach is the only remotely nazi thing going on here.

and btw IT WAS FROM AN ANONYMOUS SOURCE?!?!??!? WHO EVEN KNOWS HE SAID IT, gezz grow up and move on for christ sake I wish the admins would close these threads as people are obviously taking a few words on a site worse than if linus had insulted their mothers sexual habbits...

[Artificial Intelligence]

Heh, are now taking the step down to a childish level, heh? Spare me from your insults.

It's commen knowledge that if Linus lack of social skill as he is a genious when it comes to kernels. If he want a constructive dialog with the gnomes dev what he think he don't like, it won't help with insults.

[LinuxSwede]

in my opnion, yes.
he (intencionally or not) started the biggest flame war ever.
I think that he should finish it as well.

a public apologize in the gnome-user mail list and end of discussion.

what do u think?

What do i think?

STFU, without Linus there would most probably be no Gnome.

[jdong]

Let's keep personal attacks out of this debate, please.

[Stormy Eyes]

I hate gconf, it's reminscent of the registry (DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE)

Given a choice between gconf and the registry, I'll take gconf. A gconf snafu won't kill my whole damn computer. But I'd prefer something I can hack on with an editor. *hugs his .fvwm2rc*

[KingBahamut]

To answer the OP.

No, He shouldnt. Freedom is about the ability to express ones thoughts.

[BWF89]

I don't think he owes anyone anything. And I haven't lost 1 shread of respect for him after what he said.

[tseliot]

I think Linus Torvalds was trying to be ironic (about the nazi thing) but he didn't succeed.
I disagree with him (I'm a GNOME guy) but I respect his opinion.
Anyhow I think he could have found a better way to express his thoughts, that's all.

Don't be angry with the poor Linus... ;)

[lleb]

as for an appology? nope. no reason for it. i have used both gnome and kde, i like kde better, but both are good. i am not opposed to gnome, but personaly i prefer kde. when i first started i prefered gnome, but that was back in the RH9 days.

his oppinion is his. he is alowed to state it in the way he did. he did not call anyone a f**k**g idiot, he did call some users idiots and we all know idiot users out there both in the linux world and windows world.

oh well. enjoy and move along.

[jdong]

Linus typically phrases things in a pretty sardonically harsh way, so I see nothing out of the norm than just another person expressing KDE vs GNOME opinions.

[poptones]

I think some people have gotten way freaked out by the "nazi" part. Maybe he should have said "fascist" but that doesn't have the same impact.

At least he didn't call them "paedophiles" or "terrorists."

[poofyhairguy]

No way should Linus apologize.

I LOVE his little flamewar. This time of year is boring for the Linux community (all the big releases have been done for a month) so its great that he can start such a fun flamewar.

Plus, its not like it matters. Nothing he says will stop the fact that Gnome is becoming THE corporate Linux Desktop (for the exact reason he says- bosses are usually "idiots" when it comes to computers) and KDE will remain as the hobbiest desktop (tell me one enterprise class -high end Redhat and Novell type products- distro that uses KDE as the default). Not a bad thing either way.

[LinuxSwede]

Let's keep personal attacks out of this debate, please.
If that wasi aimed at me i have NO idea what you are talking about since it was clearly not aimed at any one person and i didn't make a recommencation for anything.

In a way, i feel sad for you

[BWF89]

@Poofyhairguy:

I was under the impression that KDE was the desktop that most Linux users used and Gnome was the smaller hobbiest one.

[macgyver2]

I was under the impression that KDE was the desktop that most Linux users used and Gnome was the smaller hobbiest one.
And I know I've heard that popularity was related to location...in general, North Americans prefer Gnome and Europeans prefer KDE. I'm not saying it's true, and I realize the pitfalls (in general ;)) when generalizing, but that's what I've heard over the years.

[JimmyJazz]

I mean we can all dissagree as for me I use all three desktops
for somethings I need a simple quick interface so I use XFCE sometimes I want more options so I use KDE sometimes I use gnome becuase I like the way it works for some things better. Thats the beuty of working in linux

[jdong]

If that wasi aimed at me i have NO idea what you are talking about since it was clearly not aimed at any one person and i didn't make a recommencation for anything.

In a way, i feel sad for you

I meant the STFU comment. That's plain rude, whether abbreviated or not.

[angkor]

what do u think?

I don't care, the argument doesn't concern me. What I don't understand is somebody getting all excited about the (advanced) features of a window manager on a computer....I get excited about other things...;)

Yet he does make some interesting point between the flames, I think it would be a great idea to implement some 'advanced tabs' and diminish the need to go into gconf.

[earobinson]

And I know I've heard that popularity was related to location...in general, North Americans prefer Gnome and Europeans prefer KDE. I'm not saying it's true, and I realize the pitfalls (in general ;)) when generalizing, but that's what I've heard over the years.
there has been many polls on this:
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=102434&highlight=gnome+kde
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=102432
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=16649&highlight=gnome+kde
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=14854

However Im sure diferent distros have diferent preferences. Fedora usera like gnome form my expirence back in the day

always with gnome on top :)
IMO kde is linux for cartoon charters (I have wanted to say that for so long)

[sabot4ge]

what really **** me off its not the "nazi" ou "idiot" thing, the "dont feed the trolls" campaing apply to everybody.
its all about the bad publicity on the ENTIRE free comunity.
i think we ALL teach to our friends that Linus and the gnu project started all the "freedom engine".
So how about Linus involved in a silly flame war?
How about future Linux users looking at slashdot and reading this kind of thing?
all that agressive comments to the creator of the kernel?
how about that?
"hey, This guy , Linus, is so intolerant. Where all the freedom stuff that my friend told me?"
We had to read TONS of email-log just to understand all the fuzz, beacuse we all LOVE gnome, we all love the free software. Regular people dont. They simply read the slashdot post and believe it. And if they read that Linus is calling other people "nazy" or "idiots" they will believe it, they will NOT do reasearch.

right to free speech? Well, he LOST IT, a long time ago, and this episode proved it. He CANT say whatever he wants anymore beacuse he is a public person now. He talks and people shut up to hear he talking.
thats why i think he should be more careful about what he says
thats why i think that he shoud apologize.
This is no joke for me, really, this was a very sad episode to the entire free software comunity.

[JimmyJazz]

also does the desktop manager really matter?
I never really felt it was huge issue quite honestly I find that all DMs work exactly the same in their most fundemental functionality, so its pretty easy to switch between different ones without much problem, also most my KDE apts work fine in GNOME and vice versa so I hardly see an issue. Quite honestly I would rather people stop worring about the two and start working on some real powerful programs to use in them.

[DoeRayMe]

A persons opinion, is thier own opinion

your cant take that away from anyone

[jdong]

also does the desktop manager really matter?
I never really felt it was huge issue quite honestly I find that all DMs work exactly the same in their most fundemental functionality, so its pretty easy to switch between different ones without much problem, also most my KDE apts work fine in GNOME and vice versa so I hardly see an issue. Quite honestly I would rather people stop worring about the two and start working on some real powerful programs to use in them.

Well, interface is related with productivity. In addition, there are underlying frameworks (kioslaves vs gnome-vfs, dcop , etc) that are different between the two that could translate into advantages or disadvantages depending on DE / user choice.

[aysiu]

Public figures are allowed to have opinions, just as others have opinions.

They're idiots, though, if they think expression of their opinions (especially potentially inflammatory ones) have the exact same effect as others' expressions of their opinions.

If I say Gnome sucks, it's a lot different from Linus Torvalds saying it.

[jdong]

That's an unfortunate side effect of his high level of influence :-/

I'd hate it if I couldn't express my opinion without being taken too seriously. Wait....

[macgyver2]

Public figures are allowed to have opinions, just as others have opinions.

They're idiots, though, if they think expression of their opinions (especially potentially inflammatory ones) have the exact same effect as others' expressions of their opinions.

If I say Gnome sucks, it's a lot different from Linus Torvalds saying it.
Of course, but when it comes down to it, who is really responsible for that?

To me, when Linus says something about Gnome or KDE it has the same weight as if any "normal" user had said it. Why? Because DMs aren't his area of expertise. Now if he would have said something about another kernel, then I'd think his comments would be above a lot of others. I think it has a lot to do with the perception of "famous" people by others. It's the same (bad, in my opinion) reason that using celebrities to market products works. The public perceives the commentary as different/more important than an ordinary person's, even though it's typically not.

[aysiu]

Of course, but when it comes down to it, who is really responsible for that?

To me, when Linus says something about Gnome or KDE it has the same weight as if any "normal" user had said it. Why? Because DMs aren't his area of expertise. Now if he would have said something about another kernel, then I'd think his comments would be above a lot of others. I think it has a lot to do with the perception of "famous" people by others. It's the same (bad, in my opinion) reason that using celebrities to market products works. The public perceives the commentary as different/more important than an ordinary person's, even though it's typically not. Exactly. I'm glad you're able to rise above that, but most people aren't. Torvalds must realize that. I don't think he cares, but he should realize that his words carry weight... yes, in the same way that a celebrity endorsing a brand of laundry detergent do.

[sabot4ge]

Public figures are allowed to have opinions, just as others have opinions.

They're idiots, though, if they think expression of their opinions (especially potentially inflammatory ones) have the exact same effect as others' expressions of their opinions.

If I say Gnome sucks, it's a lot different from Linus Torvalds saying it.

that was what i meant.
One can ay that Linus opnion its just another opnion, well it's NOT. As long as he name stays in the wikipedia as the creator of the GNU/Linux Kernel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linus_Torvalds), his opnion DOES matter.

[poptones]

Ummm... gnome is not an autonomous entity; gnome is an operating system shell created by people. The comments made were about the gnome development community (actually, by extension, the leadership) not simply that "gnome sucks."

And yes, he absolutely has the right to his opinion. I think if you will look at the various flamewars you will see that he has expressed the opinion of a LOT of people including many (like myself) who actually USE GNOME. "Us" screaming about things has traditionally not accomplished much so far as the UI aspects of Gnome.. so if, as you say, his opinion matters more, so much the better; maybe Torvalds will bang some sense into the heads of "the interface nazis."

[aysiu]

The comments made were about the gnome development community (actually, by extension, the leadership) not simply that "gnome sucks." I was too lazy to look up his actual comments.

The point still remains: if Linus Torvalds says something controversial, it'll be slashdotted; it'll be ubuntuforummed. If poptones or aysiu says something controversial, it may be argued, but no one's going to really care.

And no one said Torvalds isn't entitled to his own opinions--that point is not in contention.

[poptones]

The point still remains: if Linus Torvalds says something controversial, it'll be slashdotted; it'll be ubuntuforummed. If poptones or aysiu says something controversial, it may be argued, but no one's going to really care.

Uh yeah.. but you didn't add anything to what I just said.

Wasn't my point clear? This can be a good thing. It's like bitching about the government: no one cares... but if it's your congressperson doing the bitching, that matters; If it's your senator doing the bitching, then it matters even more.

Torvalds did nothing to "apologize" for.

[PokerFacePenguin]

<rant>
Open Source does not equal Closed Mind and Taped Mouth.

The world has as many opinions as it does belly buttons. It is time for people in this world to stop acting like a bunch of whiney, self-righteous, indignant, intolerant dimwits and accept that everyone has the right to their own opinion. The whole idea behind open source is freedom, yet there are those of you who would censor the opinions that differ from your own. Express yourself. Be creative. Be Tolerant.

</rant>

[aysiu]

It is time for people in this world to stop acting like a bunch of whiney, self-righteous, indignant, intolerant dimwits and accept that everyone has the right to their own opinion. The whole idea behind open source is freedom, yet there are those of you who would censor the opinions that differ from your own. Who's censoring?

[PokerFacePenguin]

Who's censoring?

The one's that would want Torvalds to meekly not assert any opinion at all if it differed from their own.

[aysiu]

The one's that would want Torvalds to meekly not assert any opinion at all if it differed from their own. Can you point me to a post in this thread that suggest Torvalds "meekly not assert any opinion at all... differ[ing] from their own"?

These are the suggestions I've seen so far:
1. Torvalds apologize
2. Torvalds accept the consequences for his actions (whatever that means)
3. Torvalds realize that his opinions will matter to a lot of people more than the opinions of regular users
4. Torvalds might have expressed himself in a less offensive way (i.e., expressing the same opinions but not in such a belligerent fashion).
5. Torvalds do whatever the hell he wants.

I've read no posts that suggest that Linus Torvalds not express any opinions at all. Just because people are suggesting something other than #5, it doesn't mean they want him to be silenced.

[PokerFacePenguin]

Can you point me to a post in this thread that suggest Torvalds "meekly not assert any opinion at all... differ[ing] from their own"?

These are the suggestions I've seen so far:
1. Torvalds apologize
2. Torvalds accept the consequences for his actions (whatever that means)
3. Torvalds realize that his opinions will matter to a lot of people more than the opinions of regular users
4. Torvalds might have expressed himself in a less offensive way (i.e., expressing the same opinions but not in such a belligerent fashion).
5. Torvalds do whatever the hell he wants.

I've read no posts that suggest that Linus Torvalds not express any opinions at all. Just because people are suggesting something other than #5, it doesn't mean they want him to be silenced.


It seems to me that all of the above express an opinion on his statements. All of them have the right. To sum up my own opinion, lets put me in category 5. I expressed my opinion in my original post. Make of it what you will. Or maybe you should add a number 6 up there for me... for those of us who commend Torvalds for having the backbone to express his opinions and let the chips fall where they may.....maybe that is a derivative of number 2. Anyway...I don't give enough credence to the issue to devote much more time to it.

[jdong]

Of course, but when it comes down to it, who is really responsible for that?

To me, when Linus says something about Gnome or KDE it has the same weight as if any "normal" user had said it. Why? Because DMs aren't his area of expertise. Now if he would have said something about another kernel, then I'd think his comments would be above a lot of others. .
Oh boy, Linus has been in a lot of hot water about controversial kernel stuff too.

Basically, if he likes the hardware, patches get accepted amazingly fast. Otherwise, you're kinda screwed.

[LinuxSwede]

Can you point me to a post in this thread that suggest Torvalds "meekly not assert any opinion at all... differ[ing] from their own"?

These are the suggestions I've seen so far:
1. Torvalds apologize
2. Torvalds accept the consequences for his actions (whatever that means)
3. Torvalds realize that his opinions will matter to a lot of people more than the opinions of regular users
4. Torvalds might have expressed himself in a less offensive way (i.e., expressing the same opinions but not in such a belligerent fashion).
5. Torvalds do whatever the hell he wants.

I've read no posts that suggest that Linus Torvalds not express any opinions at all. Just because people are suggesting something other than #5, it doesn't mean they want him to be silenced.

It's no5, and realize that Gnome, KDE, FOSS wouldn't even exist today without him and realize why he can do what the hell he wants.

The man is responsible for every single Linux distro out there and i'd say that BSD's would have been dead a long time ago too, Opensolaris would never have happened and IBM wouldn't invest in FOSS either.

I have extreme amounts of respect for them man but that is not why i agree with im in this case.

[sigma2805]

hey everyone...personally, i don't think he should apologize. Its his opinion...i like the minimalist approach so i choose gnome. anyway...has anyone read a non-biased comparison of KDE vs. Gnome? I would like to know things like # of packages, load times, memory usage...things like that...

[23meg]

Just about everyone following his public rants knows Linus has a bad mouth and isn't the kind of guy to take his word back on something he's filled up about. So why not just let this matter go? Just stop posting about it for example?

When people don't seem to show any tendency to change for long periods, there's no use in keeping asking them to change; this guy just won't. Why not take him as he is? As long as you can think for yourself in your choice of desktop environments, and as long as the Gnome team can think for themselves, (which is evident in their mature and well reasoned replies in the discussion) I don't see a problem here. Just like joking about Microsoft in every third post doesn't help with fixing bug #1, ranting about Linus' bad mouth won't change the fact that he'll be very vocal about what he doesn't like and he'll put his opinions in a harsh way at times.

If you want more niceness in FOSS discourse, start by being nice yourself, and by accepting others as they are.

[GoldBuggie]

I find Linus sayings rather funny. Not in the respect that they are wrong or right just that he publically went out and wrote it. I'm a KDE user and I can't say that what he says makes me proud, since one could be more tactical about it.

But it is still nice to hear someone just come and say it so honestly as he does. Would be equally nice if it was KDE that was beeing trashed. Sometimes it is so frustrating to actually get any information out of ppl since they can't speak their mind.

Then as a final note I must add my own little oppinion.:D
When I reviewed the 2 major desktop choices of linux i found that gnome looks far more cooler at start. I really don't like the default layout of kicker in KDE. But I'm a change it kind of a guy and found it easy to change what I wanted in KDE(or rather I could change it after finding it:p). But I was stuck with a limited set of options in Gnome so I chose KDE. And don't come telling me that kde is like windows in this case since one of the reasons I removed windows was the lack of choice and tweaking(without buying the software). I also think that konqueror and its ioslaves and its integrations with several applications are awesome and i'm really impressed with how it works(something i think all other desktops should envy).

What I would like in KDE that gnome has is python(more of it that is) and hmmmm...I want firefox & openoffice & gimp to look like the rest of my kde with nice transparency.

Both desktops has its real nice points and I hope that both gnome and kde will prevail and be TWO really good desktop choices even in the future. The "There can be only one!" phrase should not be applied.

[LinuxSwede]

Just about everyone following his public rants knows Linus has a bad mouth and isn't the kind of guy to take his word back on something he's filled up about. So why not just let this matter go? Just stop posting about it for example?

When people don't seem to show any tendency to change for long periods, there's no use in keeping asking them to change; this guy just won't. Why not take him as he is? As long as you can think for yourself in your choice of desktop environments, and as long as the Gnome team can think for themselves, (which is evident in their mature and well reasoned replies in the discussion) I don't see a problem here. Just like joking about Microsoft in every third post doesn't help with fixing bug #1, ranting about Linus' bad mouth won't change the fact that he'll be very vocal about what he doesn't like and he'll put his opinions in a harsh way at times.

If you want more niceness in FOSS discourse, start by being nice yourself, and by accepting others as they are.

The flames fans a lot higher on other lists and has been known to fan high on that particular mailing list too.

Yes, his presentation, just like mine would, is not what the averag user of Ubuntu forums but it's NOT uncommon on the various mailing lists.

I definently don't want more niceness, i want evil and kickass solutions with arguing people who are ready to actually travel thousands of miles to fight someone over the things they believe in, these are the people who drive FOSS, the rest are just "drones" who are told what to do and what to think.

You may hate that but in every sense, this is the truth.

[23meg]

I definently don't want more niceness, i want evil and kickass solutions with arguing people who are ready to actually travel thousands of miles to fight someone over the things they believe in, these are the people who drive FOSS, the rest are just "drones" who are told what to do and what to think.

You may hate that but in every sense, this is the truth.I don't know how you got the idea that my post was adressed to you; it wasn't next after one of your posts, and I didn't quote you, if you noticed. It was my first post on the thread, and I was hoping I'd just speak my mind on the issue and it would be the last.

[KiwiNZ]

The flames fans a lot higher on other lists and has been known to fan high on that particular mailing list too.

Yes, his presentation, just like mine would, is not what the averag user of Ubuntu forums but it's NOT uncommon on the various mailing lists.

I definently don't want more niceness, i want evil and kickass solutions with arguing people who are ready to actually travel thousands of miles to fight someone over the things they believe in, these are the people who drive FOSS, the rest are just "drones" who are told what to do and what to think.

You may hate that but in every sense, this is the truth.

This is not what Ubuntu Forums are about.
Intelligent discussion yes .
Informed debate respecting others yes.

Fights, flamefest ,personal attacks no

[earobinson]

The flames fans a lot higher on other lists and has been known to fan high on that particular mailing list too.

Yes, his presentation, just like mine would, is not what the averag user of Ubuntu forums but it's NOT uncommon on the various mailing lists.

I definently don't want more niceness, i want evil and kickass solutions with arguing people who are ready to actually travel thousands of miles to fight someone over the things they believe in, these are the people who drive FOSS, the rest are just "drones" who are told what to do and what to think.

You may hate that but in every sense, this is the truth.
So if thats what you want go to these other lists, your oppinions and your insite is greatly wanted (At least by me I have found some of your threads/threads you where the main poster(s) a very good read) Yet I do not want want to read your insults (if i want to read insults thats why i have my brothers and sister on msn))

[LinuxSwede]

I don't know how you got the idea that my post was adressed to you; it wasn't next after one of your posts, and I didn't quote you, if you noticed. It was my first post on the thread, and I was hoping I'd just speak my mind on the issue and it would be the last.

Actually i didn't think it was adressed towards me, i was just responding to it, Ubuntu forums is different in that regard and i do have trouble adjusting, i know it.

Anywayz, i do find most of your posts worthy of afterthought and for me at least, that is unusual.

Stay cool

[psyguy92]

The one thing I learned from this:
stay out of the way of the flamethrowers!!!

When the /. article was all of 10 minutes old, I posted a comment that I thought was both insightful and informative (not that I'm partial or anything ;) ). It was about the UI and understanding users needs. It was clear and polite. 15 minutes later it was modded +5. I went to work, came home, and my karma fell through the floor into oblivion. No one will ever read my comments on /. again.

Yours,

Modded to oblivion

[bored2k]

I don't think he needs to apologize to anyone. He just expressed his feelings via e-mail or whatever. Does George Bush need to apologize to Fidel for saying bad things about communism? No, he doesn't, because he's in his right (and viceversa). Is Linus supposed to stay 100% impartial, and love all the environments out there just because they're on Linux? No. By removing his hability to choose and bitch about certain software, we're blocking him from the Linux "everything goes, you just pick" way. The man hates Gnome, so what ? We hate KDE, and I don't see ourselves writing apologetic letters to the KDE devs. Should he do it just because he's bigger than the Titanic for the geek world? No, he shouldn't. If so, I want a separate written letter from every journalist who has gone against certain software, starting with Tux Magazine and their "all KDE because Gnome is not for beginners" method.

[asimon]

in my opnion, yes.
he (intencionally or not) started the biggest flame war ever.
I think that he should finish it as well.

a public apologize in the gnome-user mail list and end of discussion.

what do u think?
Nonsense. Linus put his mind quite often in very rude words. That he isn't a very good diplomat is very old news. You don't have to love Linus as person to have respect for the work he does. If you feel flamed by his choosing of words, I think the best is to just irgnore them (which doesn't prevent one to dig into the dark of the discussion to unrevel some maybe not unreasonable points why Gnome doesn't attract a certain kind of users, which gladly some Gnome developers did).

You would be very bussy to ask for an apologize from every one who doesn't like Gnome and put his opinion about it into strong words on the web. Besides, if he would have to apologize for every single flaming mail he writes he would loose considerable time on kernel development. We don't want this to happen, do we? ;-)

Also I don't think it's a very good idea to value Linus' opinion on GNOME so high. The opinion of some random other user shouldn't be less worth.

I myself am a KDE person and Hell, what have I read shocking and offensive rants about KDE. Do I feel insulted? No, I try to ignore them.

EDIT: Something else. I read here very often that's the good right of people to communicate their oppinion. That's good and nice but besides the point. Ask yourself if people have the right to offend other people? Anyhow, it seems that good manners get more uncommon nowadays.

[asimon]

We hate KDE, and I don't see ourselves writing apologetic letters to the KDE devs.
Hey, don't forget that this board gets also visited by KDE fans. We love KDE! :)

[MetalMusicAddict]

KDE in my view has too many features... yes too many. Mac OSX has chosen the minimalistic route as has Gnome - KDE has chosen the feature packed route as has Windows.
I actually feel that there is a happy medium between Gnome and KDE. I love Gnome but would like more control. KDE was my 1st DE when I used Red Hat but I feel its too much. Seems to have more options than windows. Windows lays out the options better IMHO.

As for Linus, I got that it was a comment pointed more toward the devs. In the end I dont really care what anyone says. Ill use what I like. :)

[Stormy Eyes]

right to free speech? Well, he LOST IT, a long time ago, and this episode proved it.

No, you do not lose your right to speak freely just because you are famous. The consequences for doing so and voicing an unpopular opinion are different, that's all. If I was Linus, my response to you would be "I said it, I meant it, and I stand by it. I will never apologise." But I'm not a Finn; I'm a New Yorker with big cojones and a bad attitude. :)

[Artificial Intelligence]

EDIT: Something else. I read here very often that's the good right of people to communicate their oppinion. That's good and nice but besides the point. Ask yourself if people have the right to offend other people? Anyhow, it seems that good manners get more uncommon nowadays.


Word of truth!

[BLTicklemonster]

Bah, he ought to apologize to his mum for embarassing her publicly, prolly, other than that, let people who like kde badmouth people who like gnome all they want. It's like swede with his "i feel sorry for you" comment or whatever he said concerning then "no personal attacks" comment. Just keep being superiour, we untermenschen down here in the cheap seats love the show. Good comedy for us, and it's cheap, too.

[BLTicklemonster]

The one thing I learned from this:
stay out of the way of the flamethrowers!!!

When the /. article was all of 10 minutes old, I posted a comment that I thought was both insightful and informative (not that I'm partial or anything ;) ). It was about the UI and understanding users needs. It was clear and polite. 15 minutes later it was modded +5. I went to work, came home, and my karma fell through the floor into oblivion. No one will ever read my comments on /. again.

Yours,

Modded to oblivion

Dude, if people pay attention to mod points and karma to decide what to read, especially at that retarded miasma of leftwing/socialist/commie unemployed coffee house dwelling societal retards, then you don't want them reading what you write anyway. That's like preaching to the sewer main. The posts there are usually sophomoric and posted for no other reason than to try to stomp people down, rather than have meaningful dialoge. Kinda like that moron from london who says America is a dictatorship. I wish I could come up with some personal attack on him, but I think that calling him a moron, which jumps him up the evolutionary/intellectual scale about a brazillian percent and then attacking him personally would be confusing, so I'll leave it alone.

[Malphas]

He's obviously entitled to whatever opinion he has over KDE and Gnome, no-one is disputing that (apart from those that are misenterpreting the argument); what people do have a problem with was probably the way he said it, and what could be contrived as personal insults rather than professional critisism. That said I don't feel Torvalds should be compelled to apologise unless he feels as though he should, and I'm not sure wether it's the Gnome developers he should apologise to (especially considering a lot of his points were valid) or just to anyone who might have been offended by his comments. Personally I wasn't offended at all, but the way he expressed himself has probably made me think less of him (well not really, I've read his comments similar to this before).

[Malphas]

It's no5, and realize that Gnome, KDE, FOSS wouldn't even exist today without him and realize why he can do what the hell he wants.
No. FOSS was around before Linux was even announced, and it's pure speculation as to whether or not Gnome or KDE would have existed if it weren't for Linus.

[Stormy Eyes]

Ask yourself if people have the right to offend other people?

What good is free speech without the right to offend? I take offense when people try to persuade me to accept Christianity. Should such people be stripped of their right to speak just because I consider their speech repugnant?

[Swab]

I take offense when people try to persuade me to accept Christianity. Should such people be stripped of their right to speak just because I consider their speech repugnant?

In this particular case...... yes :P

[BLTicklemonster]

What good is civility with the attitude that one must seek reasons to justify offending people? That's selfish and rude. Of course what I said could be considered offensive, but it was intended to be a rebuke against wanton offensiveness, which is rarely done these days, but ought to be done more, imho.

Without civility, we become "them".


...and we all know who "they" are, don't we?

[Stormy Eyes]

In this particular case...... yes :P

Wrong answer. The fact that evangelism offends me is irrelevant. What matters is whether or not the evangelist is doing me harm by speaking. He isn't, unless one chooses to nitpick and view wasted time as harm.

[macgyver2]

...and we all know who "they" are, don't we?
The dude in your avatar? :)

[Stormy Eyes]

...and we all know who "they" are, don't we?

American politicians?